Matthew 24:31 is about the rapture

Jamdoc said:

If your redemption was coming totally unexpected, why would Jesus tell you the signs and tell you to watch for them?

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The rapture is not totally unexpected. Millions of Christians are looking for it to happen anytime.

We have signs that it is very near.

Jamdoc said:

But you're attempting to create a division, a "church age" "dispensation" and then separating yourself from "tribulation saints". There is nothing of that in the bible.
There's no sepration or "dispensations" of people.

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I am not a dispensationalist. Save that argument for someone else. Look at my screename information to the left.

Douggg said:

Matthew 24:29-30a is the sixth seal event, I agree. It is what causes the kings of the earth to assemble their armies at Armageddon, to make war on Jesus. Please look at my chart down at the bottom.



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You've quentin tarantino'ed Revelation beyond the 1 restart of the story in Revelation 12.
Revelation 6 does not immediately preceed Armageddon. the 7 trumpets and vials happen between, and that takes some time. The stings from the locusts from hell from the first woe cause 5 MONTHS of pain.
Gog and Magog take place chronologically AFTER the Millennial Kingdom as well.

The way I read it, it's "Beginning of sorrows" which is, basically present day, who knows how long that lasts...
Then 1st seal/horseman, conquest which (admittedly a stretch) could be Coronavirus, it is conquering the world and the word "Corona" means crown, the virus is named for the crown like halo around it. (It IS a stretch though), but traditionally it's the Antichrist arising as a world leader and conquering.
Then 2nd seal/horseman, peace is taken away from the earth
Then 3rd seal/horseman, a great famine
Then 4th seal/horseman, death, 1/4 of the world's population dying from disease, hunger, and war.
In this time the Antichrist has been building up power and offering solutions to all the world's problems, he makes impossible peace happen from wars, probably solves the pestilence, and famine. Some time in this period there's an assassination attempt, he miraculously survives. This is when the 10 kings grant him their power and authority and he becomes the world leader.
Now the 5th seal. This is when he reveals who he truly is, the Abomination of Desolation, this is the beginning of GREAT Tribulations, where the other disasters were tribulations but not the GREAT Tribulation. This is when in Revelation 13 you have the mark of the beast and start having Christians being killed that show up as souls in heaven in Revelation 6.
Then the 6th seal, the sun and moon are darkened, Jesus comes in the clouds to gather His elect, this is the rapture.
Now the 144,000 are sealed, before the 7th seal is released.
The 7th seal is released, and after half an hour of silence, the wrath of God begins
1st Trumpet/1st Vial, fire raining down from the sky, men who received the mark of the beast break out in sores
2nd Trumpet/2nd Vial, the seas become as blood and it kills the marine animals.
3rd Trumpet/3rd Vial, the rivers are contaminated
4th Trumpet/4th Vial, the sun darkens but becomes really hot, like maybe going red giant, it's dimmer but larger and closer to us so it's hotter.
5th Trumpet/5th Vial, the skies go dark and there's locusts from hell that have stings that last 5 months of pain that cause people to gnaw on their own tongues to try and tolerate the pain.
6th Trumpet/6th Vial, the Euphrates river dries up for the armies of the Kings of the East (China for instance, who else can field an army of 200,000,000 that is described in Revelation 9:16) that goes on the warpath and kills millions on their way to Armageddon.
7th Trumpet/7th Vial, lightning and 60 pound hailstones.
Babylon is destroyed in 1 hour and what's left of the world economy is shattered as a result
Now Jesus returns on a horse with His saints following Him and he destroys the armies at Armageddon. The Antichrist and False Prophet are thrown into Hell. Satan is chained up in the pit. The Millennial Kingdom begins
After 1000 years, Satan is loosed, Satan deceives the nations, and nations of unbelievers rise up to try and overthrow Jesus, this is Gog and Magog. They're destroyed. Satan is cast into Hell.
The second resurrection occurs and they are judged at the great white throne of Judgement. Those not in the book of life are thrown into Hell.
The current world we know is destroyed utterly and then remade.
New Jerusalem comes down to the new earth from Heaven, the Eternal Kingdom of God on the new heavens and earth begin.

The way I have it, there is 1 singular out of order part of Revelation, and that is a reset of the narrative to tell the same events in a different way with different details starting in Revelation 12. Revelation 4-11 are in order, Revelation 12-22 are in order.
Any other way has God duplicating plagues in the vials that were already done in the trumpets.

Douggg said:

The disciples, Jews, ask Jesus three questions some of which the answer went way beyond their lifetime. But would take place in the end times, which would apply to Jews in the end times.

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The disciples, mostly fishermen, ask Jesus three questions some of which the answer went way beyond their lifetime. But would take place in the end times, which would apply to mostly fishermen in the end times.

Douggg said:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

ye - Jews

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ye - mostly fishermen

friend of said:

Matthew 24:31
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Agree or disagree?

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I disagreed because Matthew 24, considered as a hole is Jesus' direct prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and deeper prophecy of his second coming at the end of time. If it were about an invisible coming for believers, it's a little loud for that supposed event.

friend of said:

Matthew 24:31
And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Agree or disagree?

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No
if you will read the verses before verse 31, you will see this event happens after the tribulation of those days.
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days

The elect (in 31) is Israel, The Messiah will gather the elect from Israel. To go into the millennium.

Verses in Matthew about the rapture is Matthew 24:36-44

Jamdoc said:

You've quentin tarantino'ed Revelation beyond the 1 restart of the story in Revelation 12.

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You are wasting your time with the "quentin tarantino'ed". I don't know who he is and don't care.

I think you are beyond help eschatology speaking. I think I will just put you on ignore.

jgr said:

The disciples, mostly fishermen, ask Jesus three questions some of which the answer went way beyond their lifetime. But would take place in the end times, which would apply to mostly fishermen in the end times.

ye - mostly fishermen

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That's how you respond to a rationale post ?

Douggg said:

That's how you respond to a rationale post ?

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If your post is "rationale", then so is mine.

jgr said:

If your post is "rationale", then so is mine.

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No, your post is sarcasm.

Ignoring someone because they don't agree with you is ignorant.

Douggg said:

You are wasting your time with the "quentin tarantino'ed". I don't know who he is and don't care.

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Jamdoc's reference to Quentin Tarantino is quite appropriate for those who make Bible prophecy into a fantasy scenario.
Especially those like you Dougg, who take verses like John 14:1-3 and use it to try a prove that God will rapture His people to heaven. Something that scripture, or any other verse does not say at all.
The Bible is quite clear; we must remain on earth, through all that must happen. It will be our test of faith and only those who have proved their worthiness, will go with Jesus into His Millennium reign.

What I find really sad, is the many people who have accepted the teachings of the 'rapture' promotors and who will very soon be bitterly disappointed.
Many scriptures tell us how those teachers will be very severely punished. James 3:1, 2 Peter 2:1-3

Douggg said:

No, your post is sarcasm.

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Were Jesus' disciples mostly fishermen?

keras said:

Jamdoc's reference to Quentin Tarantino is quite appropriate for those who make Bible prophecy into a fantasy scenario.
Especially those like you Dougg, who take verses like John 14:1-3 and use it to try a prove that God will rapture His people to heaven. Something that scripture, or any other verse does not say at all.
The Bible is quite clear; we must remain on earth, through all that must happen. It will be our test of faith and only those who have proved their worthiness, will go with Jesus into His Millennium reign.

What I find really sad, is the many people who have accepted the teachings of the 'rapture' promotors and who will very soon be bitterly disappointed.
Many scriptures tell us how those teachers will be very severely punished. James 3:1, 2 Peter 2:1-3

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The Quentin Tarrantion was more in reference to the way he makes his movies not in chronological order, like the first scene in the movie is the last thing that happens in the narrative and they jump around a lot. People who consider the entire 70th week to be 'the tribulations" and hold a post "tribulational" view of the rapture have to read Revelation as it being written without any Chronological order. I've talked with one brother here who thought the 7 trumpets and 7 vials all took place within the span of 1 hour because Revelation 18 has Babylon being destroyed in 1 hour, so for him Revelation is completely scrambled in order of events.
Pre tribulational rapture proponents also have to scramble the order of events, placing the battle of gog and magog (the last thing that happens before the throne of Judgement in Revelation 20) as happening after the rapture but the start of the tribulations, which is some weird post millennial view.
A pre wrath view reads Revelation as being mostly in order, with 2 different ways of telling the same narrative, from Revelation 4-11, then a restart in Revelation 12 and then going all the way to Revelation 22 in order. The rationale being the trumpets and vial judgements seem to parallel each other and events parallel each other. So they're both in order just 2 different perspectives with different sets of details. The 12-22 narrative gives more description on the events that happen after the 5th seal, and the 4-11 narrative gives more description on the judgements of the wrath of God. But it is one sequence of events, told in order.
I suspect that people who believe in pre trib rapture have an underlying fear of suffering during the tribulation so they have a preconceived notion that Jesus will make sure they are not here to suffer them, so they invent a lot of things like separating themselves as a "Church age saint" and designates the saints who are shown to be suffering in the tribulation as a separate group of people they call tribulation saints, because it alleviates their fears.
They have come out to me saying "1 Thessalonians 4 says to comfort each other with the talk of the rapture, how is going through the tribulations comforting?" and that's because they take the verses out of context. The reason why 1 Thessalonians 4 was to comfort was because the Thessalonians were worried about their brethren who had died "missing out" on the second coming of Jesus, and Paul was saying that wasn't going to happen, that the dead would rise first, so they wouldn't miss a thing. That's the comfort. That the dead saints would be able to take part in the glory of the second coming.

However considering there are 2 events that are comings of Jesus in Revelation we need to get over the idea that there's only 1 time in the future that jesus will return. He said He will come back, He did not say He'd only come back once. So once He comes in the clouds for His elect. That's the second coming.
When He comes back WITH His saints in Revelation 19, that's a third coming, and they are different events. 1 is coming in the clouds, 1 is coming on a white horse with an army.

keras said:

Especially those like you Dougg, who take verses like John 14:1-3 and use it to try a prove that God will rapture His people to heaven. Something that scripture, or any other verse does not say at all.

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John 14:1-3 is scripture.

jgr said:

Were Jesus' disciples mostly fishermen?

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klutedavid said:

Then you will freely admit that the age of the Gentiles is another era now. Gone are the days of old covenant Israel. Jerusalem was smashed by the Romans and they fled all over the world.

Never again will old covenant Israel be seen. Never again will a stone temple stand in Jerusalem. We are in the era of the Gentiles.

If you are thinking that a two thousand year old temple will be rebuilt. That the blood of a thousand oxen will wash the big brass bowls for the forgiveness of the nations sins. That is, under the old covenant, sacrificial law. This occurs in the twenty first century?

Israel will have a high priest?

Israel will establish the chair of Moses as the judiciary?

Israel will surrender all criminal, civil law and adopt the law of Moses?

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Israel attends synagogue and reads from the Law and the Prophets. They celebrated Rosh Hoshana and gathered in groups for Passover as they did in ancient times.

dqhall said:

Israel attends synagogue and reads from the Law and the Prophets. They celebrated Rosh Hoshana and gathered in groups for Passover as they did in ancient times.

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Their house was left to them desolate.

Matthew 23:37-38
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

klutedavid said:

Their house was left to them desolate.

Matthew 23:37-38
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

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True.

There are lost cities in America who should turn to Christ. First century Jerusalem was not the only city in the world to be in trouble for its violence.

Douggg said:

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You didn't answer the question, so here it is again:

Were Jesus' disciples mostly fishermen?