Matthew 24:31 is about the rapture

[klutedavid]

What is the mathematical probability of finding the common word elements in the two passages below, if they were not related?


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
(See John 10:22 for the understanding.)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

.

Well there obviously different accounts, different events! Why is that? Because I am using a chart and your not. Take that bah humbug Berean.

 

[klutedavid]

Well, I have a chart of the verses of the Olivet discourse and the Luke 21 parallel given by Jesus in the temple courtyard - and you don't.

I also know that "abomination of desolation" is not in Luke 21.

So the discourse that Jesus gives in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Is not the discourse answering the same questions, asked by the disciples.

Matthew 24:3
As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Luke 21:7
They questioned Him, saying, “Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?”

 

[klutedavid]

What is the mathematical probability of finding the common word elements in the two passages below, if they were not related?


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
(See John 10:22 for the understanding.)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

.

No common words or statements at all.

Matthew 24:19
But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

Luke 21:23
Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days.

 

[Douggg]

So the discourse that Jesus gives in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Is not the discourse answering the same questions, asked by the disciples.

Matthew 24:3
As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Luke 21:7
They questioned Him, saying, “Teacher, when therefore will these things happen? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?”

Jesus answered their questions.

Jesus gave the near term future...the long term future..... and the end times future of Israel. That is what is on my chart. It is in the end times which the end of the age comes, of man ruling himself.

near term future - Destruction of the Temple, 70 AD.

long term future - Jews forced into the nations, Israel in exile, Gospel spread to the nations, time of the gentiles, 2000 years.

end times future - Israel a sovereign nation again, 1948.

 

[Jamdoc]

Sort of. It's the post-trib gathering of the gleanings, but it's not the main harvest gathered pre-trib.

There's nothing in the bible for a pre trib rapture. Unless Revelation is written out of order like a Quentin Tarrantino movie, Matthew 24, Revelation 6, and 1 Thessalonians 4 passages align.

The key thing you have to understand is that the "tribulation" is separate from God pouring His wrath on the earth. The Tribulation is caused by man, namely the antichrist.
Matthew 24:29
Revelation 6:12
Note the timing. This is after you have martyred Christians (the Great Tribulation) but BEFORE the 7 Trumpets and 7 Vials of God's wrath.
Note that in Revelation 7 you suddenly have a great multitude of new people in Heaven.
What happened in Revelation 6 just prior to that? The sun and moon darkening which corresponds to Matthew 24, where Jesus comes for His elect.
If you want to call it Mid trib because you still believe that the 7 trumpets and 7 vials are part of the "7 years of tribulations" then you can call it that if you want but the real position is post trib, pre wrath.

Nothing I have seen in the bible has ever suggested a pre trib rapture, but I can understand confusion if you do not separate the tribulations from the wrath of God and consider the entire 70th week the tribulations.
But that still shows a mid tribulational view because we've already gone through 6 of the 7 seals.

 

[Douggg]

There's nothing in the bible for a pre trib rapture.

What is to prevent the rapture from taking place pre-70th week ? The possibility of it.

What I am saying is that the rapture could happen pre-70th week, not that it must.

 

[SeventyOne]

There's nothing in the bible for a pre trib rapture. Unless Revelation is written out of order like a Quentin Tarrantino movie, Matthew 24, Revelation 6, and 1 Thessalonians 4 passages align.

The key thing you have to understand is that the "tribulation" is separate from God pouring His wrath on the earth. The Tribulation is caused by man, namely the antichrist.
Matthew 24:29
Revelation 6:12
Note the timing. This is after you have martyred Christians (the Great Tribulation) but BEFORE the 7 Trumpets and 7 Vials of God's wrath.
Note that in Revelation 7 you suddenly have a great multitude of new people in Heaven.
What happened in Revelation 6 just prior to that? The sun and moon darkening which corresponds to Matthew 24, where Jesus comes for His elect.
If you want to call it Mid trib because you still believe that the 7 trumpets and 7 vials are part of the "7 years of tribulations" then you can call it that if you want but the real position is post trib, pre wrath.

Nothing I have seen in the bible has ever suggested a pre trib rapture, but I can understand confusion if you do not separate the tribulations from the wrath of God and consider the entire 70th week the tribulations.
But that still shows a mid tribulational view because we've already gone through 6 of the 7 seals.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, but the confusion on this is not on my part.

 

[jgr]

Jesus answered their questions.

Jesus gave the near term future...the long term future..... and the end times future of Israel. That is what is on my chart. It is in the end times which the end of the age comes, of man ruling himself.

near term future - Destruction of the Temple, 70 AD.

long term future - Jews forced into the nations, Israel in exile, Gospel spread to the nations, time of the gentiles, 2000 years.

end times future - Israel a sovereign nation again, 1948.

View attachment 278310

Matthew 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Since "ye" is suddenly no longer addressed to His disciples, did Jesus tell them to go for coffee?

In which verse?

 

[Douggg]

Matthew 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

Since "ye" is suddenly no longer addressed to His disciples, did Jesus tell them to go for coffee?

In which verse?

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


The disciples, Jews, ask Jesus three questions some of which the answer went way beyond their lifetime. But would take place in the end times, which would apply to Jews in the end times.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

ye - Jews

 

[Jamdoc]

What is to prevent the rapture from taking place pre-70th week ? The possibility of it.

What I am saying is that the rapture could happen pre-70th week, not that it must.

Wishful thinking maybe. But the timing in the bible is after the 6th seal, but before the wrath of God.
I'm not sure what drives the pretrib rapture idea aside from perhaps, a fear of being martyred or a fear of suffering for the testimony of Jesus. That is what Jesus promised us, that we would suffer for His name, for being His and for testifying His gospel.
When you read Jesus' end times prophecy in the gospels, when you read revelation, where exactly do you get that there will be a pre trib rapture?
In order to have a rapture take place pre trib, and pre wrath as what is shown in revelation 6, you have to invent a second rapture that is not biblical. There are 2 resurrections. A first resurrection that we refer to as the rapture, which in Revelation is shown to be after the 6th seal, and is blessed, and those who take part in it the second death has no power over, the second resurrection takes place after the millennium just before the great white throne of judgement (Revelation 20:4-6).. so if you want to say those are 2 raptures fine. But one of them is still, in Revelation 6, after the 6th seal, after the Great Tribulation and before the 7 trumpets and 7 vials, and the second is at the end of the millennium. You STILL have to invent a 3rd resurrection taking place prior to the 2 that are actually in the bible.

 

[keras]

Quote Douggg; I never spoke of anyone's ethnicity. 1Thessalonians4:15-18 applies to Christians. Their ethnicity may be Jewish, Scottish, Russian, Chinese, mixed, etc. #20
Then you said:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
ye - Jews

Both these scriptures apply to the Christian peoples. Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Rev 13:7.

You also continue to promote a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, without any scriptural support. 'Anytime rapture' simply shows the lack of support for such a weird idea.

Its useless for us to bother with anything that gets repeatedly posted, just scroll quickly over it.

 

[Douggg]

Wishful thinking maybe. But the timing in the bible is after the 6th seal, but before the wrath of God.

What is your basis for that pov?

The rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is restated again in 1Thessalonians5:9-11, indicated as being before the wrath of God, that takes place when the Day of the Lord begins.

It does not say how far before. When the Day of the Lord begins is the key. Which in 2Thessalonians2:4, the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist is what triggers the Day of the Lord.

 

[klutedavid]

What is your basis for that pov?

The rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is restated again in 1Thessalonians5:9-11, indicated as being before the wrath of God, that takes place when the Day of the Lord begins.

It does not say how far before. When the Day of the Lord begins is the key. Which in 2Thessalonians2:4, the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist is what triggers the Day of the Lord.

View attachment 278316

What is the 'transgression of desolation act'?

Paul does not refer to an Antichrist in 2 Thessalonians 2, rather he is called, 'the man of lawlessness', or, 'the son of destruction'.

 

[Douggg]

Quote Douggg; I never spoke of anyone's ethnicity. 1Thessalonians4:15-18 applies to Christians. Their ethnicity may be Jewish, Scottish, Russian, Chinese, mixed, etc. #20
Then you said:

...as far as the rapture is concerned.

You also continue to promote a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, without any scriptural support. 'Anytime rapture' simply shows the lack of support for such a weird idea.

I gave you the verse, but your version of the bible apparently doesn't have it.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

If you choose otherwise, to not be taken to where the mansions are, that is up to you.

Its useless for us to bother with anything that gets repeatedly posted, just scroll quickly over it.

That's why I don't respond to your posts unless you accuse me specifically of something.

 

[Douggg]

What is the 'transgression of desolation act'?

Paul does not refer to an Antichrist in 2 Thessalonians 2, rather he is called, 'the man of lawlessness', or, 'the son of destruction'.

Paul does not refer to the person in 2Thessalonians2:4 as the Antichrist, I agree.

It is only by knowing what the act of sitting in the temple is - to know it is the Antichrist who commits the act.

The transgression of desolation is an act - a transgression.

What the Antichrist actually transgresses is the covenant that God made with the children of Israel on Mt. Sinai, that He would be their God and they would be his people. The Antichrist transgresses that covenant by claiming to be God.

That covenant (the Mt Sinai covenant) is what the Antichrist confirms to begin the 7 years, because Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 made it a requirement for all future leaders of Israel to do so, on a 7 year interval. It will be by a big speech from the temple mount. I show it on my chart at the top.

The Antichrist for a while the Jews will think he is the messiah, God's choice as the King of Israel. But actually he is not, he comes in his own name, not someone sent by God to be their king.

The transgression of desolation is in Daniel 8:

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

On my chart, I show both the transgression of desolation (the ToD). And the abomination of desolation (the AoD).

 

[Jamdoc]

What is your basis for that pov?

The rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is restated again in 1Thessalonians5:9-11, indicated as being before the wrath of God, that takes place when the Day of the Lord begins.

It does not say how far before. When the Day of the Lord begins is the key. Which in 2Thessalonians2:4, the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist is what triggers the Day of the Lord.

View attachment 278316

I already stated. Revelation 6. Compare Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 6:12-17, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Compare what's happening in each of these verses and understand that they all describe the same event.
Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6:12-1

2 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So what's being described. In Matthew 24, Jesus describes an event after the tribulation, where the sun and moon are darkened and the elect are gathered to Him, and there's a sound of a trumpet when it happens, and all the kings of the earth, those who are not saved, MOURN because they know that the wrath of God is upon them.
In Revelation 6 you have the 6th seal opened (and for context the 5th seal had a bunch of saints who had been slain for their testimony in heaven, that being Christians living during the tribulations who are killed as martyrs, so this is the end of the tribulations), you have the sun and moon darkening, just like Matthew 24, and you have all the people in the earth mourning.
In 1 Thessalonians 4, you can see it's talking about the same event because just like Matthew 24, its Jesus coming in the clouds, with the sound of a great trumpet, gathering the elect.

Which happens AFTER the tribulation but BEFORE the 7 trumpets and 7 vials of God's wrath.
To clarify it even further, Revelation 7:9-14

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So you see here, after the 6th seal, after the sun and moon darkened, there are suddenly an uncountable number of new people in heaven that weren't there before, and one of the Elders who was in heaven prior to this, asks who they were, and John told them they were the redeemed. They are the Christians who were raptured after the 6th seal.

To see it any other way means you either think Revelation was Tarantino'ed and written completely out of order, or you're inventing another rapture event that happens before the one actually mentioned in the bible in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Now a Caveat. Revelation DOES have an out of order part. It tells 1 sequence of events up through Revelation 11. Then it starts over and has a second sequence of events that I believe parallels the first.
The vials and trumpets are released in tandem. If you notice, the Trumpet and vial often have something to do with one another.
The second trumpet has what sounds like an asteroid strike hit the ocean and turn the oceans into blood. The second vial also has the seas become as blood.
The third trumpet sounds like an asteroid strike hitting land, and it must be radioactive because it contaminates a third of the world's rivers, so somewhere in Asia gets hit. The third vial turns the rivers into blood. In other words, the third vial and third trumpet contaminate the fresh water after the second vial and trumpet contaminate the oceans.
The fourth trumpet darkens the skies by a third, the fourth vials intensifies the heat of the sun, so it's dark and extremely hot.
The fifth trumpet completely darkens the skies and releases demons from hell that torment and sting men. The 5th vial is also darkness and pain.
The 6th trumpet and vial both have to do with the river euphrates, which dries up, and a massive army crosses over it and kills 1/3 of the people on the planet.
7th trumpet and vial are both marked by lightning and great hail.

 

[Douggg]

So you see here, after the 6th seal, after the sun and moon darkened, there are suddenly an uncountable number of new people in heaven that weren't there before, and one of the Elders who was in heaven prior to this, asks who they were, and John told them they were the redeemed. They are the Christians who were raptured after the 6th seal.

Read it again. It does not say "redeemed". They are saved,in that their souls are redeemed, washed in the blood of the Lamb, but not their bodies. The rapture has to do with the redemption of the body.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Them in Revelation 7 which came out of great tribulation are the martyred great tribulation saints, them in the fifth seal calling on the Lord to avenge their blood, Revelation 6:9-11.

 

[Jamdoc]

Read it again. It does not say "redeemed". They are saved,in that their souls are redeemed, washed in the blood of the Lamb, but not their bodies. The rapture has to do with the redemption of the body.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Them in Revelation 7 which came out of great tribulation are the martyred great tribulation saints, them in the fifth seal calling on the Lord to avenge their blood, Revelation 6:9-11.

... they're the saints. Period. If you want to call them tribulation saints fine because they exist during the tribulation but note that none of the elders questioned the souls in heaven after the 5th seal saying "who are these souls?" they do question after the sudden multitude in heaven "who are these people?" They're used to seeing souls in heaven. They're not used to seeing people in bodies in heaven.
But you're attempting to create a division, a "church age" "dispensation" and then separating yourself from "tribulation saints". There is nothing of that in the bible.
There's no sepration or "dispensations" of people.
Galatians 3:28

I also want to point out Luke 21
Particularly Luke 21:28

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

If your redemption was coming totally unexpected, why would Jesus tell you the signs and tell you to watch for them?

 

[Douggg]

I already stated. Revelation 6. Compare Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 6:12-17, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Matthew 24:29-30a is the sixth seal event, I agree. It is what causes the kings of the earth to assemble their armies at Armageddon, to make war on Jesus. Please look at my chart down at the bottom.

 

[Douggg]

... they're the saints. Period. If you want to call them tribulation saints fine because they exist during the tribulation but note that none of the elders questioned the souls in heaven after the 5th seal saying "who are these souls?"

I did not call them tribulation saints. I called them the great tribulation saints.

The elders in Revelation 6, did not say anything once the seals began to be opened. So I don't know what the point is that you are making.

they do question after the sudden multitude in heaven "who are these people?" They're used to seeing souls in heaven. They're not used to seeing people in bodies in heaven.

One of the elders answered to what he saw. saying unto John.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

John was able to answer because he (and the elder) had seen the souls in the firth seal. Them martyred for their testimony of Jesus during the great tribulation. John was able to know that by the riders on the red, black, pale horses in Revelation 6, that those were riders of the great tribulation.

There was no-one in the great multitude who was said to have been resurrected. The rapture is also accompanied by the resurrection of the dead in Christ.