Faith Plus Works

BNR32FAN said:

If you are referring to the men in Acts 19 it is not certain that they had not received the Spirit. They did not know about the Spirit because they hadn’t heard about Him. They could’ve already received the guidance of the Spirit and didn’t know it. We know if we have received the Spirit because we know what to look for. Those men didn’t. Yes after they were baptized Paul laid hands on them and they received gifts of the Spirit but they could’ve already received guidance from the Spirit before receiving those gifts. The Holy Spirit had already done work in the apostles before Jesus was crucified and before they received the gifts on Pentecost.

“He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:17‬

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I strive not to talk too much about the Spirit on the forums with those who attack me because I wouldn't them to say something that they would regret.

Jason0047 said:

I strive not to talk too much about the Spirit on the forums with those who attack me because I wouldn't them to say something that they would regret.

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I hope you don’t see my post as an attack brother. I assure you that was not my intention. We have spoken before and I don’t believe I said anything attacking to you. Perhaps you may have misunderstood the manner of my reply? If I have in any way appeared attacking or rude I sincerely apologize brother. It truly was not my intention.

You completely missed my point.

re #300.

@justbyfaith: In all of the scriptures you have mentioned, God is telling those who are hard-hearted and stubborn, and who will insist on being saved by their works, that the only work that will or ever can save them is faith in Jesus Christ.

Now consider Romans 4:5, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

He justifies the ungodly person. Did you get that? He declares us righteous when we are not righteous!

What this means for the true believer is that my new identity in Christ is that I am righteous even when I blow it... The next step after realizing this, of course, is to begin to live according to my new identity in Christ (1 John 3:7). As I continue to walk in the understanding that He has declared me righteous and that this is who I am in Christ, messing up from time to time is not going to affect my identity adversely. Because it is in understanding my identity in Christ that I become able to live according to it. As I continue to walk in this identity that cannot be affected by the enemy, I begin to live more and more like a man who is righteous even as Christ is righteous.

Also, in Galatians 2:20 it becomes clear that the practical aspect of my righteousness has to do with Him living His life in me and through me.

I am a sinner; but He is righteous. Therefore inasmuch as it is not me living my life but Christ living His life in me and through me, my personal walk will be one of holiness in the practical sense; while I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells no good thing (Romans 7:18).

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BNR32FAN said:

I hope you don’t see my post as an attack brother. I assure you that was not my intention. We have spoken before and I don’t believe I said anything attacking to you. Perhaps you may have misunderstood the manner of my reply? If I have in any way appeared attacking or rude I sincerely apologize brother. It truly was not my intention.

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My deepest apologies. I thought I was replying to "justbyfaith."
Been a long day today and I needed more rest.

Jason0047 said:

My deepest apologies. I thought I was replying to "justbyfaith."
Been a long day today and I needed more rest.

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No worries brother no offense taken.

Jason0047 said:

But now you are preaching a double message. How exactly does obedience to God play part in your saying you are a justified sinner (Which is a part of your profile in each of your posts)?

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I already told you, and you didn't believe; why do you want to hear it again?

The answer is in Luke 18:9-14 and Psalms 51:3.

Yes I am preaching a double message. There are two sides to the coin of scriptural truth: on the tails side is the law, and on the heads side is grace.

Telling you that I am a sinner saved by grace is true humility in the eyes of the Lord (Luke 18:14 and context, Psalms 51:3).

So in calling myself a justified sinner, I am obeying God's desire that we be humble before Him.

It is my belief that those who proclaim to the world that they are sanctified are most likely in fact the opposite; while those who humble themselves and call themselves sinners to the world may have a degree of real sanctification (at the very least they are truly justified before the Lord).

The one who gives glory to Christ who sent him and does not seek glory for himself, is the one who has no unrighteousness in him.

Actions speak louder than words. It is how we live and not what we say that determines whether we are sanctified.

An attack mentality might lead someone to jump on my words and say that I am saying that words don't matter. That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is what the apostle said in 1 John 3:17-18.

Jason0047 said:

My deepest apologies. I thought I was replying to "justbyfaith."
Been a long day today and I needed more rest.

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A point to be considered: does God excuse us for sinning against Him if we are tired?

We will be justified or condemned because of our words.

Thus Luke 18:9-14 is very important to consider when judging what kinds of words will justify us and what kinds of words will condemn us.

BNR32FAN said:

No worries brother no offense taken.

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Speak for yourself...

justbyfaith said:

I already told you, and you didn't believe; why do you want to hear it again?

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Reference to John 9:27?

1 John 2:11 says,
"But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes."

Sure doesn't sound like once saved alway saved.
The Moral Law (like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) is the equivalent of loving your neighbor according to Paul (See Romans 13:8-10).

Your neighbor would include your brother obviously.
So if one is committing grievous sin, they are not loving their brother.
1 John 3:15 says that if we hate our brother, no eternal life abides in us.

The answer is in Luke 18:9-14

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I already mentioned the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee before.
This is talking about "Initial Salvation." Remember, Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 that the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and MERCY. They did not seek forgiveness with God for real because they did not bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.

John the Baptist said to the Pharisees:
"Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." (Luke 3:8).

The Pharisees believed they were saved by being sons of Abraham. But John the Baptist was telling them to make their repentance (their seeking God's forgiveness) as being genuine by bringing forth the proper good deeds (fruits worthy of repentance). That is why Jesus gave us The Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee. The Pharisee did not genuinely repent (seek forgiveness with God) because he thought he was a son of Abraham. This is similar to those who hold to a Belief Alone type faith. They think they are saved based on "Sonship Alone." They think they are saved in being born again sons of God. They are sons. But John the Baptist wouldn't hear any of that kind of talk. He told those Pharisees to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance and not say that they are saved because they are sons.

You said:

Yes I am preaching a double message.

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Jason0047 said:

This is talking about "Initial Salvation."

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It is talking about "perpetual salvation."

I said:

justbyfaith said:

Yes I am preaching a double message. There are two sides to the coin of scriptural truth: on the tails side is the law, and on the heads side is grace.

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justbyfaith said:

An attack mentality might lead someone to jump on my words and say that I am saying that words don't matter. That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is what the apostle said in 1 John 3:17-18.

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Both God and I know what you said; But this thread is not really about you and me. It is about the truth of God's Word in regards to how a believer needs both Faith + works of faith as a part of their salvation. It's what the Bible teaches.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

Jesus was calling the Pharisees to repent.

30 "But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?
31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.
32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
(Luke 5:30-32).

That is why Jesus gave us the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee. A person does not continually repent. A person is supposed to repent once and then they bring forth fruits worthy of repentance.

justbyfaith said:

We will be justified or condemned because of our words.

Thus Luke 18:9-14 is very important to consider when judging what kinds of words will justify us and what kinds of words will condemn us.

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So then we are saved on the basis of our works then. Thank you for helping me to prove my case against what you believe.

justbyfaith said:

Speak for yourself...

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I was

justbyfaith said:

It is talking about "perpetual salvation."

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Where in the Parable does it say he cries out unto God for forgiveness the next day and the day after that? Granted, God's grace is there for a believer if they happen to stumble on rare occasion or if they need to mature in their faith and walk uprightly in the Lord (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9), but they do not cry out to God for forgiveness if they plan to sin again. One is not really sorry if they do that. That would sort of be like a husband who cheats on his wife and says he is sorry to her but yet he has no intention of ever stopping in his unfaithfulness.

Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.
Jesus said that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah (See Matthew 12:41).
In Jonah 3:6-10, we learn that the king of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out unto God.
(b) Forsake their evil ways.

And it was not until God had seen the Ninevites had forsaken their evil ways is when God decided to not bring judgment or wrath upon them.