Gal 2:16 and Rom 2:13 : Works of the Law Justifies or not?

[Clare73]

Jesus said the greatest commandments is what the entire Bible hangs on, not that it was obsolete. Mat 22:34-40 Rom 13:9 why Jesus taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments Mat 5:19-30

I guess all will get sorted out soon enough when Jesus comes and once He does, all decisions will be final Rev 22:11

It's all sorted out now. . .

So I'm sure you'll understand if my focus is on Jesus' new command of the New Covenant: love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34), rather than on the obsolete (vanishing) Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) Decalogue: do no harm.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It's all sorted out now. . .

So I'm sure you'll understand if my focus is on Jesus' new command of the New Covenant: love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34), rather than on the obsolete (vanishing) Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) Decalogue: do no harm.

We do not do the sorting out, that's Christ's job, only He knows the wheat from the tares.

No Scripture says one teaching of Jesus Christ deletes His other teachings. Nor is the NC established on just one law. Heb 8:10 James 2:11-12 Rev 22:14-15 Mat 7:21-23 and Jesus told us to live by every Word, not just the ones we want. Mat 4:4

Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Take care.

 

[Clare73]

We do not do the sorting out,

Indeed. . .the NT Scriptures have already done the job.

So I'm sure you'll understand if my focus is on Jesus' new command of the New Covenant: love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34), rather than on the obsolete (vanishing) Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) Decalogue: do no harm.

The question is: why is that not your focus also?

 

[fhansen]

This is one of two parts of Jewish hope, as I understand it. This is the Jewish believer's hope for personal fidelity to Christ as an individual. What is different here, as opposed to the Law, is that under the Law Israel was blessed for compliance by experiencing national blessings and deliverance from enemies. But it was not Eternal Life.

By contrast, compliance with Christ's covenant brought not only the blessing of God's favor, but also the promise of Eternal Life. Eternal Life came only by Christ's Work, and not by our own acts of obedience to his Covenant. We obtain the benefit of Christ's work by obeying his commandments, thus demonstrating our faith in him.

The major diference between the old and new covenants is that, in the new, man is reconciled with God before anything else- establishing a vital connection between us and the Vine. Then real righteousness can and will flow to man to the extent that we remain in Him. We must do our part in striving to do His will, but now by the power, by the love, granted to us by Him as we turn to and draw near to Him.

So the NC is all about communion with God. Adam broke communion with God by his act of disobedeince. True obedience can only be regained by first restoring that communion, something man has absolutely no way of doing on his own.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Indeed. . .the NT Scriptures have already done the job.

So I'm sure you'll understand if my focus is on Jesus' new command of the New Covenant: love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34), rather than on the obsolete (vanishing) Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) Decalogue: do no harm.

The question is: why is that not your focus also?

Because if Jesus intended the Bible to be based on one select verse, the Bible wouldn’t be so big. Jesus said to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, not just one verse Mat 4:4

I would hate to misunderstand Jesus and end up covering our sins Pro 28:13 instead of of asking Jesus to help us overcome and keep through His power John 14:15-18 because no one is saved in their sins Heb 10:26-30, Jesus came to save us from sin Mat 1:21 and sin is still breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 breaking one we break them all even in the NC James 2:11-12

There is a reason this is one of the last verses in the Bible before the Revelation of Jesus Christ, because Jesus shows no partiality to His law- breaking one we break them all, it will be His standard of Judgement James 2:11-12 Ecc 12:13-15 Mat 15:3-4 Mat 5:19-30 Rev 11:18-19, not mans.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exodus 20:16 or any of the commandments 1 John 2:4) Breaking one we break them all James 2:11-12 Exo 20:1-17 .

The Ten Commandments is God’s personal Testimony Exo 31:18 why its under His mercy seat revealed in heaven Rev 11:19 where one day soon justice and mercy will come together and what did He promise right in the Ten Commandments

Exo 20: 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

The New Covenant is established on better promises Heb 8:6 still has God’s laws Heb 8:10, from written on Stone to written in our hearts and minds. It’s not written on stony hearts or those who rebel against God’s law Rom 8:7-8 but written on hearts of flesh Eze 36:26 and the Holy Spirit of Truth who wrote the Ten Commandments is the one enabling us to keep now, through our love and faith in and of Jesus John 14:14-18 Rev 14:12, this is the faith that reconciles Rev 22:14

 

[RandyPNW]

The major diference between the old and new covenants is that, in the new, man is reconciled with God before anything else- establishing a vital connection between us and the Vine. Then real righteousness can and will flow to man to the extent that we remain in Him. We must do our part in striving to do His will, but now by the power, by the love, granted to us by Him as we turn to and draw near to Him.

So the NC is all about communion with God. Adam broke communion with God by his act of disobedeince. True obedience can only be regained by first restoring that communion, something man has absolutely no way of doing on his own.

I know where you're coming from--at least, I think so? Many Christians rely on Jer 31.33 to claim that the big difference between old and new testaments is the idea of the Law being imprinted upon the heart, or what Paul calls "love as the fulfillment of the Law."

But I think all covenants and all laws God gave Man were to be "imprinted upon the heart" and to be carried out in "love." In particular, even in OT restorations the Prophets would claim that God is going to renew His covenant with Israel by bringing out restored obedience from the heart and by transforming them into righteous, loving people.

How could it be otherwise? Would God just required cold, mechanical obedience without any love? I don't think so.

So, what really differentiates the covenants is our obtaining Eternal Life under the New Covenant. Our obedience to that covenant qualifies us to receive from Christ the work he did for our Salvation. We do the work of receiving, but he did the work of Saving. We operate our faith by choosing to obey Christ's word, and he responds by giving us Eternal Life.

Both covenants have the same requirement for the parties to comply, or risk breaking the covenant. Both requirements give something in return for obedience to God.

But in the one case, the benefit to obedience is national prosperity and deliverance from enemies. In the New Covenant, we may be prosperous as individuals and even as nations, if the whole nation is Christian. But the superior blessing comes with Christ applying his work towards us for having obeyed and trusted in him. The result is Eternal Life, which is something that the 1st Covenant could not provide, except as a distant hope.

 

[fhansen]

I know where you're coming from--at least, I think so? Many Christians rely on Jer 31.33 to claim that the big difference between old and new testaments is the idea of the Law being imprinted upon the heart, or what Paul calls "love as the fulfillment of the Law."

Jesus came in the fullness of time to give the full-true revelation of God’s nature-and of His will for man: for us to ultimately live in eternal bliss with Him. The Jewish leaders of that time didn’t agree over whether an afterlife even existed. But Jesus revealed to us that temporal things are worthless at the end of the day compared to eternal treasure. Either way, obedience was impossible under the old covenant, while under the law. But not under grace:

“But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Rom 3:21-24

This new righteousness is the law that God puts in our minds and writes on our hearts. How? As we come to truly know Him, we turn to Him, and become His people, speaking of a direct and intimate union that man is made for, that defines our very purpose. That’s what faith does, makes us His people, grafts us into the Vine. And that’s the difference between the old and the new.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.” Jer 31:33-34

“We love him because He first loved us”; we’ve now come to know and to value and to embrace that love. And that’s what makes us right; we become slaves to righteousness now leading to eternal life instead of slaves to sin that results in death (Rom 6). That’s why those in Christ are no longer condemned as per Rom 8:1. And this clarifies Rom 5:17:

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!”

Now we must walk, with God, under grace, in that freely given righteous, that justice, that justified state:

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.”

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.”

“Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” Rom 8:12-14

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

 

[RandyPNW]

Jesus came in the fullness of time to give the full-true revelation of God’s nature-and of His will for man: for us to ultimately live in eternal bliss with Him. The Jewish leaders of that time didn’t agree over whether an afterlife even existed. But Jesus revealed to us that temporal things are worthless at the end of the day compared to eternal treasure. Either way, obedience was impossible under the old covenant, while under the law. But not under grace:

“But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Rom 3:21-24

This new righteousness is the law that God puts in our minds and writes on our hearts. How? As we come to truly know Him, we turn to Him, and become His people, speaking of a direct and intimate union that man is made for, that defines our very purpose. That’s what faith does, makes us His people, grafts us into the Vine. And that’s the difference between the old and the new.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.” Jer 31:33-34

“We love him because He first loved us”; we’ve now come to know and to value and to embrace that love. And that’s what makes us right; we become slaves to righteousness now leading to eternal life instead of slaves to sin that results in death (Rom 6). That’s why those in Christ are no longer condemned as per Rom 8:1. And this clarifies Rom 5:17:

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!”

Now we must walk, with God, under grace, in that freely given righteous, that justice, that justified state:

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.”

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.”

“Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.” Rom 8:12-14

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

Brother, I'm not sure you really understand, though I'm sure you're sincere. Eternal Life and God's Eternal Nature were there from the beginning. Man just lost it. How it has all been restored to us has been something of a mystery in history, but unquestionably it came to focus with the earthly ministry of Jesus.

1 John 2.13 I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one.

The truth was there from the begnning, and even after the Fall. God told Cain he could "overcome" if he made the right choice.

Gen 4.7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

God's ways have been the same from the beginning. But the mystery of the atonement was unveiled in Jesus Christ.

 

[fhansen]

Brother, I'm not sure you really understand, though I'm sure you're sincere. Eternal Life and God's Eternal Nature were there from the beginning. Man just lost it. How it has all been restored to us has been something of a mystery in history, but unquestionably it came to focus with the earthly ministry of Jesus.

Hmm...appears to be a failure to communicate here. I'm not sure you really understand-what I said. But I certainly have no idea what you're meaning to say above. I mean, of course, "Eternal Life and God's Eternal Nature were there from the beginning". And I didn't say otherwise. Maybe you could clarify a bit.

 

[armchairscholar]

This is what God said is the New Covenant

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

When we are not subject to God's law, we are an enmity against God

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

So if we are arguing against what God placed in our hearts in the New Covenant His laws, its not really a good sign. In the New Covenant is about what God will do Heb 8:10, if we cooperate with Him through our love. Why receiving the power of the Holy Spirit that enable us to keep His commandments requires us to stop arguing with God on keeping His laws, because that's not the direction Jesus told us to follow Mat 5:19 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 15:3-19

Its all conditional not based on one commandment, but all of them, breaking one we break them all in the NC James 2:11-12

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Keeping God's law is transformation of the inner self because we are no longer a slave to sin, which is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4. Its like when a parent has rules, do we show love and respect to our parents by keeping them because we love them, or ignoring what they ask and do what we want instead. In Scripture this is called rebellion and sin Heb 3:7-8,12,13

Not keeping God's commandments is not the way to go

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

This is not what we want to hear at His Second Coming

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

But if we love Him, we allow Him to change us on the inside and obey what He asks through faith and trust that what He asks is for our own good.

This is the faith that reconciles us back to Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Keeping God's law is transformation of the inner self because we are no longer a slave to sin, which is breaking God's law 1 John 3:4. Its like when a parent has rules, do we show love and respect to our parents by keeping them because we love them, or ignoring what they ask and do what we want instead. In Scripture this is called rebellion and sin Heb 3:7-8,12,13

Not keeping God's commandments is not the way to go

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

This is not what we want to hear at His Second Coming

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

But if we love Him, we allow Him to change us on the inside and obey what He asks through faith and trust that what He asks is for our own good.

This is the faith that reconciles us back to Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Hey SabbathBlessings, I really appreciate how you’ve laid out the importance of God’s commandments in the New Covenant. Your point about God writing His laws on our hearts hits home—it’s like He’s inviting us into a deeper relationship, not just following rules for the sake of it. I’ve been reflecting on this a lot lately, especially how love and obedience go hand in hand, like you mentioned with John 14:15. It’s almost like loving God naturally leads us to want to live in a way that honors Him.

Your analogy about parents and their rules makes it so clear. Just like we show love to our parents by respecting their guidance, we show love to God by trusting His ways are best for us. I also find it encouraging that the Holy Spirit is there to help us, not just pointing out where we fall short but empowering us to grow. Those verses in Revelation about the patience of the saints always remind me that this journey isn’t about perfection but about staying faithful and letting God shape us over time.

Thanks for the reminder that it’s about transformation from the inside out. It’s tough sometimes, especially when the world pulls us in different directions, but I think that’s why leaning on God’s grace and staying rooted in His Word is so key. Looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hey SabbathBlessings, I really appreciate how you’ve laid out the importance of God’s commandments in the New Covenant. Your point about God writing His laws on our hearts hits home—it’s like He’s inviting us into a deeper relationship, not just following rules for the sake of it. I’ve been reflecting on this a lot lately, especially how love and obedience go hand in hand, like you mentioned with John 14:15. It’s almost like loving God naturally leads us to want to live in a way that honors Him.

Your analogy about parents and their rules makes it so clear. Just like we show love to our parents by respecting their guidance, we show love to God by trusting His ways are best for us. I also find it encouraging that the Holy Spirit is there to help us, not just pointing out where we fall short but empowering us to grow. Those verses in Revelation about the patience of the saints always remind me that this journey isn’t about perfection but about staying faithful and letting God shape us over time.

Thanks for the reminder that it’s about transformation from the inside out. It’s tough sometimes, especially when the world pulls us in different directions, but I think that’s why leaning on God’s grace and staying rooted in His Word is so key. Looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts!

I appreciate your post. To me, it just makes sense. Disobeying God is what separated us from God Isa 59:2 it is what separated 1/3 of the holy angels. Not obeying all of what God asks and how He asks shows a lack of faith. While we might love God as a feeling and believe in Him, we are still mistrusting Him to do what He asks and without faith, we can't please Him. Heb 11:6 There is power in what God asks. He created the entire earth just by speaking and it was so. Psa 33:9 so when Jesus tells us quoting OT to live by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God Mat 4:4 I think we need to have faith that what He asks of us, is because its for our own good. There's power in His words.

We are in our trial, just like the Israelites were and sadly many didn't make it due to sin Heb 3:12-19 Eze 20:13 where clearly unbelief and disobedience go hand in hand. Jesus tells us at His Second Coming many will say Lord Lord, but continued on their own path instead of allowing God to be God, to define His will Psa 40:8, which He wrote with His own finger and spoke with His own voice and called it His Testimony Exo 31:18 and promised not to alter Psa 89:34 why the new covenant is established on better promises Heb 8:6 because we can't make something written by our perfect God, that He wrote that is perfect for converting our soul, more perfect Psa 19:7 but through our relationship and love to Jesus obeying Him because we want to and love Him so much, He changes our hearts, and in cooperating with Him, He doesn't not leave us orphans to do this on our own John 14:15-18 and it a much better promise than trying to keep God's laws on our own efforts, which is impossible. But through Christ all things are possible and He strengths us. Its sad how so many people rebel against this. Why we were warned in the last days many people beleive they are doing God's will but are without the power 2 Timothy 3:5 so when we are dismantling God's Testimony and we pick and choose which ones we keep or not keep instead of just obeying God the way God said, we lose His power. Acts 5:32

God bless!

 

[RandyPNW]

Hmm...appears to be a failure to communicate here. I'm not sure you really understand-what I said. But I certainly have no idea what you're meaning to say above. I mean, of course, "Eternal Life and God's Eternal Nature were there from the beginning". And I didn't say otherwise. Maybe you could clarify a bit.

You said, "The major difference between the old and new covenants is that, in the new, man is reconciled with God before anything else- establishing a vital connection between us and the Vine."

You said, "Jesus came in the fullness of time to give the full-true revelation of God’s nature-and of His will for man: for us to ultimately live in eternal bliss with Him."

We were discussing the *differences* between the Old and New Covenants. From your statements above it sounded as if in the Old Covenant Israel was as yet not reconciled with God and did not have a vital connection with God, spiritually?

And the implication of your statement is that before the New Covenant was established by Jesus there was not a "full-true revelation of God's nature and will for Man?" Really?

And so, I challenged that statement by declaring that the Old Covenant did have a true revelation of God's nature. The "I Am" statement to Moses revealed God's "true revelation." And the God of Israel under the Old Covenant was, in fact, a true revelation of God's Nature.

So maybe you're just saying that Jesus "filled in some of the blanks" not yet known about God's plan of Salvation, even though God's Nature was indeed fully known? Maybe you will acknowledge that the Law of Moses had provided a measure of "reconciliation" with God until it was sealed in Christ's blood?

After all, God continued to have fellowship with Adam and Eve, indicated by His giving them animal clothing. That in itself was a form of "reconciliation" and continuing vital links with God!

All that the Law of Moses provided Israel was given to reconcile them to Himself, if only on a temporary basis. And it did create a vital, spiritual link between Israel and Himself.

The necessary "final atonement of Christ" was future at that point, but did not mean that the Law had no value up until that point.

I hope you understand what I'm saying?

 

[Clare73]

Because if Jesus intended the Bible to be based on one select verse, the Bible wouldn’t be so big. Jesus said to live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, not just one verse Mat 4:4
I would hate to misunderstand Jesus and end up covering our sins Pro 28:13 instead of of asking Jesus to help us overcome and keep through His power John 14:15-18 because no one is saved in their sins Heb 10:26-30, Jesus came to save us from sin Mat 1:21 and sin is still breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 breaking one we break them all even in the NC James 2:11-12
There is a reason this is one of the last verses in the Bible before the Revelation of Jesus Christ, because Jesus shows no partiality to His law- breaking one we break them all, it will be His standard of Judgement James 2:11-12 Ecc 12:13-15 Mat 15:3-4 Mat 5:19-30 Rev 11:18-19, not mans.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exodus 20:16 or any of the commandments 1 John 2:4) Breaking one we break them all James 2:11-12 Exo 20:1-17 .

The Ten Commandments is God’s personal Testimony Exo 31:18 why its under His mercy seat revealed in heaven Rev 11:19 where one day soon justice and mercy will come together and what did He promise right in the Ten Commandments

Exo 20: 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

The New Covenant is established on better promises Heb 8:6 still has God’s laws Heb 8:10, from written on Stone to written in our hearts and minds. It’s not written on stony hearts or those who rebel against God’s law Rom 8:7-8 but written on hearts of flesh Eze 36:26 and the Holy Spirit of Truth who wrote the Ten Commandments is the one enabling us to keep now, through our love and faith in and of Jesus John 14:14-18 Rev 14:12, this is the faith that reconciles Rev 22:14

I'm sure you'll understand if my focus is on Jesus' new command of the New Covenant: love one another as I have loved you (Jn 13:34), rather than on the obsolete (vanishing) Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) Decalogue: do no harm.

 

[fhansen]

We were discussing the *differences* between the Old and New Covenants. From your statements above it sounded as if in the Old Covenant Israel was as yet not reconciled with God and did not have a vital connection with God, spiritually?

Ok, just as one man, Adam, fell by his act of disobedience, so we all rise individually due to the one man Jesus’ obedience (Rom 5). Jesus’ sacrifice resulted in reconciliation for all, but only as we respond and accept His offer, opening the door when He knocks.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. 2 Cor 5:14-19

The OT foreshadows the new while the new clarifies and fulfills the true meaning of the old. Sin was not dealt with under the OC, because the law and the sacrifices were insufficient to take away and overcome the sin that separates us from God and thus condemns us to death. They were a steppingstone, however, and part of our “education”, and therefore part of God’s revelation to man. The law could not reconcile because the law cannot justify. And justification is necessary for salvation. So what did the law accomplish? What is its real purpose at the end of the day?

“But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.”

“….in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death…” Rom 7:6-7, 13

The true purpose of the law was to disclose sin, the sin that the law cannot overcome so that, once understood, we'll stop relying on the mere external observance of the law as satisfying God's demand for justice/righteosness in us.

“Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.”

So, no, Israel was not reconciled with God. God certainly never abandoned man but the problem was with man all along; that’s where the alienation or separation from God began-in man’s pride that opposes the knowledge and love of God-and continues until we’re humbled and reconciled, each one of us at a time. And that reconciled relationship, itself, is the basis of justice/righteousness for man and the very font of any righteousness he was meant to have. “Apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5) is key to understanding the gospel/new covenant.

Man was made for communion with God and is lost, sick, dead, if apart from Him. The veil to the Holy of Holies was torn; we now have access directly to God. That’s when/how He gives us a new heart and spirit (Ex 36), that’s when we receive the Holy Spirit whom Jesus promised, the Spirit who helps us overcome the flesh (Rom 8:12-14). This happens as we give up our own efforts to be righteous according to the law, and turn to Him who justifies the ungodly, apart from the law, who helps us to obey willingly now, yes, out of the love He pours out into our hearts (Rom 5:5).

When humankind was finally becoming ready to receive the full light, Jesus came to reveal the true God, the one who gives eternal life (the Pharisees and Sadducees were divided on this), the one who is sheer mercy and goodness and love and can be intimately related to with the term “Abba”, Father, rather than the aloof and distant and angry God we often conceptualize. Enmity came from man, IOW, not Him. So we encounter His love thru the person of His Son and we love in return. This happens as we come to know Him, as echoed in Jer 31:33-34 and also John 17:3:.

“Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”

This is how it works- this is basic Christianity. The NC isn’t just about a new destination or blessing; it’s about change, it’s about becoming who we were created to be, to attaining to the purpose God created us for as we’re transformed into His own image by following Him- on a path that Jesus showed us. That’s our salvation. IOW, the only way that man can have any authentic righteousness in himself is if God indwells him first.

 

[RandyPNW]

The OT foreshadows the new while the new clarifies and fulfills the true meaning of the old. Sin was not dealt with under the OC, because the law and the sacrifices were insufficient to take away and overcome the sin that separates us from God and thus condemns us to death.

Okay, my statement was more nuanced than what you're quoting. If you say this without recognizing the point I was making, your interpretation would be unbalanced and untrue. But as yet, you don't seem to understand what I mean?

Yes, the OT foreshadows the New, and the New fulfills the meaning of the Old. But you cannot say that "Sin was not dealt with under the OC" if you don't make the distinction between what the New does and what the Old did.

The Old Covenant did deal with Sin--it just didn't deal with it permanently. It mitigated the problem of Sin in that it kept Israel and God in relationship with one another. It just didn't make their relationship permanent under that basis.

Sin had not been permanently and completely put away. Even under the New Covenant Sin has only been dealt with completely in the legal sense, but not in the sense that we still live in sin-infected bodies.

So, no, Israel was not reconciled with God.

Same problem here. Israel was not permanently and completely reconciled with God. But they were in fact reconciled with God via animal sacrifices and obedience to God. It was a temporary reconciliation, but it was, in fact, a limited reconciliation.

God certainly never abandoned man but the problem was with man all along; that’s where the alienation or separation from God began-in man’s pride that opposes the knowledge and love of God-and continues until we’re humbled and reconciled, each one of us at a time. And that reconciled relationship, itself, is the basis of justice/righteousness for man and the very font of any righteousness he was meant to have. “Apart from Me you can do nothing” (John 15:5) is key to understanding the gospel/new covenant.

Man was made for communion with God and is lost, sick, dead, if apart from Him. The veil to the Holy of Holies was torn; we now have access directly to God.

Israel always had access to God, though it was through mediators, whether through the priesthood, Moses, or Prophets in general. These separating mediators did not prevent access to God, but limited it in order to show them that to ensure eternal access to God Christ had to die.

When Christ made a way past the Levitical Priesthood and in through the veil, it meant that the veil of *legal prohibition* had been ended. Nothing could prevent us from having Eternal Fellowship with God. It was no longer a limited right to Eternal Life and Fellowship with God.

Israel approached God at Sinai. It's just that they could not draw near. But you *cannot* say Israel had no access to God. No, God had brought them to Himself on Mt. Sinai, as He specifically said.

There's no sense in discussing this if you don't believe Israel in the OT was brought to God to be in relationship with Him. I agree that Eternal Life only came, legally, when Christ died and rose. But to say that no relationship was possible prior to that moment is absurd.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, the OT foreshadows the New, and the New fulfills the meaning of the Old. But you cannot say that "Sin was not dealt with under the OC" if you don't make the distinction between what the New does and what the Old did.

The Old Covenant did deal with Sin--it just didn't deal with it permanently. It mitigated the problem of Sin in that it kept Israel and God in relationship with one another. It just didn't make their relationship permanent under that basis.

It didn't deal with sin because it didn't get at the root of the problem, man's alienation from his Creator. That's what the new covenant, OTOH, does. Instead, the OC served a whole 'nother purpose: to show that we sin, that we can't be holy no matter how hard we try, that any holiness we think we have, by the law, is garbage, as Paul referred to his own righteousness in Phil 3. We don't please God; we don't become nearer to Him, by mere observance of a moral code, no matter how right that code may be. Fallen man needs more; he’s missing something, and that Something is God, Himself. The Old Covenant was part of the preparation for bringing us to the realization of that need before we can be holy in any real sense of the word. The OC helps show us that we're alienated from, still apart from, our Creator.

Sin had not been permanently and completely put away. Even under the New Covenant Sin has only been dealt with completely in the legal sense, but not in the sense that we still live in sin-infected bodies.

Sin is dealt with in far more than the legal sense. Again, man is given righteousness now, as he’s made a new creation. The strictly forensic declaration notion of justification is a novel one. Believers will still struggle against sin but, now with the help of grace, teamed with the Trinity, by the Spirit, he has the way, the True Way- to perfection- to overcoming the sin that he was never meant to participate in to begin with. We don’t live in sin-infected bodies-and there’s nothing inherently wrong with the flesh; it’s God’s creation. Lack of moral integrity and control is simply guaranteed once the creature is autonomous from the moral authority of its Creator. Man’s proclivity to sin is directly related to his distance from God. That separation of creature from Creator is, itself, the injustice in fallen man; it’s an anomaly in creation, a sickness, a disorder sometimes referred to as the state of “original sin”. And that's why reconciliation between man and God is essential-and must come first.

There's no sense in discussing this if you don't believe Israel in the OT was brought to God to be in relationship with Him. I agree that Eternal Life only came, legally, when Christ died and rose. But to say that no relationship was possible prior to that moment is absurd.

Not the relationship God ultimately wants from and for us, a relationship finally based on head over heels love between ourselves and Him. Geez, this is quite simple. God expressed, through His prophets, disappointment over and over again with the Israelites, over their straying to false Gods and abandonment of His law. Something new, something big, had to be done, and that’s the final chapter. The true purpose of the chosen people, unbeknownst to them for the most part, was to give birth to the Messiah, to deliver Jesus Christ to this world, whom most of them rejected when they met Him. But God has not abandoned them now, either. His plans for them will be fulfilled.

If the OC had worked, there’d be no need for a new and better one. And yet the old wasn’t revoked, but replaced, when the time was right, by one that could actually fulfill what the old could not. God is our life; He must enter and live within us. That's the difference.

"The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’"

"Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Heb 10:1-7, 11-14

"The law was given that grace might be sought; and grace was given that the law might be fulfilled." (Augustine, De Spiritu et Littera)

 

[RandyPNW]

It didn't deal with sin because it didn't get at the root of the problem, man's alienation from his Creator. That's what the new covenant, OTOH, does. Instead, the OC served a whole 'nother purpose: to show that we sin, that we can't be holy no matter how hard we try, that any holiness we think we have, by the law, is garbage, as Paul referred to his own righteousness in Phil 3. We don't please God; we don't become nearer to Him, by mere observance of a moral code, no matter how right that code may be. Fallen man needs more; he’s missing something, and that Something is God, Himself. The Old Covenant was part of the preparation for bringing us to the realization of that need before we can be holy in any real sense of the word. The OC helps show us that we're alienated from, still apart from, our Creator.

I know you believe that, but I don't. I think people under the Old Covenant knew far more than you think they did. God didn't give Israel a false "dry run" through repentance, atonement, and reconciliation just so the "real thing" could be made understable under a New Covenant with a different people. God doesn't "fake things," giving Israel something empty and meaningless just to prove something to future generations.

Sin is dealt with in far more than the legal sense.

I explained that. We still have a Sin Nature. So if Sin was dealt with completely on the Cross, and it was, then it was strictly in a legal sense. We are not resurrected yet. We are not glorified yet.

But that legal atonement does accomplish things for us now in terms of having a new mind and a new life.

We don’t live in sin-infected bodies-and there’s nothing inherently wrong with the flesh; it’s God’s creation.

Yes, we do live in sin-infected bodies, because sin, which is a spiritual malady, lives in the flesh. The Bible says so. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Paul.

Lack of moral integrity and control is simply guaranteed once the creature is autonomous from the moral authority of its Creator. Man’s proclivity to sin is directly related to his distance from God. That separation of creature from Creator is, itself, the injustice in fallen man; it’s an anomaly in creation, a sickness, a disorder sometimes referred to as the state of “original sin”. And that's why reconciliation between man and God is essential-and must come first.

Original Sin is in fact a disease that spreads through all of Adam's progeny. It is not just an equation in which we measure our distance from God and get the measure of our sin. There is truth in that. However, we are born in sin, before we had any consciousness of our distance from God.

I believe we also inherit a spiritual nature from our ancestors, just as we inherit their genetic makeup. We begin with a distance from God, well before we consciously choose to distance ourselves from Him.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

in Gal 2:16, we read;

"know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

However, in the Romans 2:13, it is written;

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous."

?

Not only Paul, but Jesus stressed that the "doers of the law will be declared righteous".

Mat 5:17-20 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.​

​

​

Mat 7:21-24 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'​

Build Your House on the Rock "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:​

We are not "justified" by our perfect righteousness. For we all sin.

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.​

​

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.​

But a Christian should strive to be sinless (Holy).

Heb 12:14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:​

 

[fhansen]

I know you believe that, but I don't. I think people under the Old Covenant knew far more than you think they did. God didn't give Israel a false "dry run" through repentance, atonement, and reconciliation just so the "real thing" could be made understable under a New Covenant with a different people. God doesn't "fake things," giving Israel something empty and meaningless just to prove something to future generations.

It's not so much about proving things as about revelation, about progressively revealing things to a very lost and stubborn humanity, including, finally, teaching man the vast difference between Creator and creature. There's nothing fake or meaningless about teaching us hard lessons: that we have nothing apart from Him, that our attempts to be sufficient on our own apart from Him, to be right and holy apart from Him, beginning first in Eden, are fruitless, meaningless, destructive. And you're only arguing with His word anyway as Romans 7 and elsewhere describe the true meaning and purpose of the law, that of being a tutor rather than the means to accomplish righteousness.

Yes, we do live in sin-infected bodies, because sin, which is a spiritual malady, lives in the flesh. The Bible says so. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Paul.

Paul doesn't say we have a sin-nature; that's a later, novel construct/interpretation/translation. He actually says that good does not dwell in his flesh (sarx), contrasting his flesh with his mind.

The flesh, the body, has a myriad of desires and appetites, easily influenced and drawn by concupiscence to act upon them. And we often give in as our wills are no longer controlled by God or in alignment with His will. Human nature, itself, didn’t change one bit with the Fall of man-it “just” lost the vital connection to God that Jesus came to restore. And we’ll struggle with concupiscence, the battle against sin, all our lives as we’re tempted to experiment with it, with good versus evil, with heeding God versus heeding the creature, with being attracted to temporal, created things that never satisfy, over the Creator who, alone, satisfies as Aquinas put it. Sin is in the will, until informed and convinced and conformed by the “knowledge of God”. As we come to believe in, hope, in, and, most importantly, to love God-to the extent that we’re perfected in love of Him as well as neighbor- sin is excluded.

Original Sin is in fact a disease that spreads through all of Adam's progeny. It is not just an equation in which we measure our distance from God and get the measure of our sin. There is truth in that. However, we are born in sin, before we had any consciousness of our distance from God.

I said nothing about an equation, only about a simple truth. And of course fallen man has no consciousness of his distance from God; he has no real consciousness of God to begin with because he’s born distant from Him and has no means to find Him, if he even has that desire. That distance from God-and the family tradition of pride that it stemmed from-is an evil, an injustice, in itself. We need no other “sin”, no other state of being, than that alienation into a world with no God in sight ending in physical death in order to guarantee a sinful life/world. The abuse of human freedom is responsible for all the evil that we witness and/or participate in in this brave world autonomous from and ignorant of its Creator. That separation has been referred to as the “death of the soul”. It’s the reason man must be reborn, the reason Jesus came to reconcile us with God which means life to us, by defintively revealing the true nature of God in no uncertain terms and bringing us the grace, through the Holy Spirit, to respond rightly to that knowledge. Again:

“Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” John 17:3

“No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.” Jer 31:34

There’s a huge difference between the old and new covenants. That’s why God made a new one.

“This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.” John 3:19-21

 

[RandyPNW]

It's not so much about proving things as about revelation, about progressively revealing things to a very lost and stubborn humanity, including, finally, teaching man the vast difference between Creator and creature. There's nothing fake or meaningless about teaching us hard lessons: that we have nothing apart from Him, that our attempts to be sufficient on our own apart from Him, to be right and holy apart from Him, beginning first in Eden, are fruitless, meaningless, destructive. And you're only arguing with His word anyway as Romans 7 and elsewhere describe the true meaning and purpose of the law, that of being a tutor rather than the means to accomplish righteousness.

No, I'm quite happy to consider what Rom 7 may have meant in this regard, but you're just doubling down and saying what I said you said. You are stating that what God told Israel under the Law was essentially meaningless *for them,* and making it all about revelation for *another people!*

And as I said, God doesn't play games with a nation, and give Israel fake hope. His agreement with them was real, and did provide a measure of atonement and reconciliation in their sin. It enabled them to enjoy the promise of a coming Messiah, as well as experience immediate spiritual benefits in internal righteousness, just as we have today.

What Paul was talking about in Romans and elsewhere is Justification with respect to Eternal Life. The Law was a system that brought only a *temporary benefit* in this regard, and was given to show that something more was needed to provide *eternal redemption.* That's what Paul was talking about--he didn't at all mean to say that the Law had no benefit for Israel at all!

Paul doesn't say we have a sin-nature; that's a later, novel construct/interpretation/translation. He actually says that good does not dwell in his flesh (sarx), contrasting his flesh with his mind.

Paul stated that Sin is a spiritual disease that indwells the flesh--that's what I said. And Christians call it "Original Sin" because it is inherited by Adam's progeny. All of us are born with this spiritual disease, not carried by genes, but by "spiritual inheritance."

But you changed this argument to something else, to "good indwelling the flesh"--whatever that means?

The flesh, the body, has a myriad of desires and appetites, easily influenced and drawn by concupiscence to act upon them. And we often give in as our wills are no longer controlled by God or in alignment with His will.

The human will has the ability to resist sin. God told Cain that before he murdered his brother. If a person chooses not to rely on God's goodness, of course he will be overcome by evil desires.

Human nature, itself, didn’t change one bit with the Fall of man-it “just” lost the vital connection to God that Jesus came to restore.

I don't know how you can say that? Our nature certainly did change after Adam and Eve sinned.

Rom 7.18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

I said nothing about an equation, only about a simple truth. And of course fallen man has no consciousness of his distance from God

Well, that is obviously untrue because when God's truth convicts a man, he repents, knowing he is distant from God. If fallen men can repent they can be made aware of their distance from God.

The abuse of human freedom is responsible for all the evil that we witness and/or participate in in this brave world autonomous from and ignorant of its Creator. That separation has been referred to as the “death of the soul”. It’s the reason man must be reborn, the reason Jesus came to reconcile us with God which means life to us, by defintively revealing the true nature of God in no uncertain terms and bringing us the grace, through the Holy Spirit, to respond rightly to that knowledge.

At least we agree on something! Yes, "freedom" is the catchword we hear continually in our age. But it is "freedom from God" the world is talking about. The world takes the worst possible side on every issue if only they can preserve their freedom from God! They don't like the Holy Spirit standing behind them, telling them what is wise and what is just. They want to determine their own fate. And they'll get their wish!

But you utterly fail to see, in this discussion, what the true difference is between the covenants. It is the issue of a permanent solution and Eternal Life, which failed under the old system but succeeds under the new system. However, the old system had far more benefits than you are crediting it with!