Faith Plus Works

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,504
7,861
...
✟1,194,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No. I was just in study today in John. I just read recently John 5:24. It says you need to believe and you need to hear (believe) the words of Jesus in order to pass from death unto life.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24).​

What words of Jesus does a person need to believe to pass from death unto life?

All of them (obviously).

Most who are in the "Believe Alone" camp, do not believe Jesus will really send a person to hell if they look upon a woman in lust. Yet, this is what Jesus says in Matthew 5:28-30. They also do not believe that un-forgiveness will cause them to be unforgiven, either. Yet, Jesus says if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). They also do not believe an unprofitable servant (no works) can keep a believer from being saved. Yet, Jesus says the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (See Matthew 25:30). Also, see Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, etc.

You have to obey as a part of the Faith (or after you have come to Jesus).
No obedience to the faith and there is no salvation.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,504
7,861
...
✟1,194,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
We have to obey as a part of the gospel or salvation..

"By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:" (Romans 1:5).

25 "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:" (Romans 16:25-26).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him"
(Hebrews 5:9).

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).​

The Light = God.
Walking = Keeping His commandments or Loving your brother (or neighbor)
(Note: Also see Romans 13:8-10).

3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."
(1 John 2:3-6).

9 "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes."
(1 John 2:9-11).​

You cannot hate your brother or break God's commands and claim the blood of Jesus cleanses you from all sin because 1 John 1:7 says you have to walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse you from all sin.
 
Upvote 0

LightLoveHope

Jesus leads us to life
Oct 6, 2018
1,474
458
London
✟79,782.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
What a good subject?

What is a sinner full of - bitterness, anger, adultery, lusts, selfishness, bile.
What is a follower of Christ full of - love, compassion, empathy, kindness, faithfulness

If you prick either, what comes out?
Following Jesus is not just a set of ideas one assents to, it is a transformation from
the Kingdom of this world into the Kingdom of Light.

And the light within shines out, maybe a little shaky at first, but it is still there.

My latest insight into this subject is change.
Are we perfect, complete, arrived, resolved, the image of Christ?
No. Okay. Then when we meet Jesus, how is He going to effect this change?

Imagine we have closed the door, lived with our struggles and given up, said it
is a joke and we are as we are, and nothing is going to change us.

This is the same as saying we are chaff, worthy of only being thrown away.
Arriving has never been our need, traveling towards Jesus has always been it.
And unless we walk in faith with an open door, only then can Jesus achieve
this. Close the door and shut it all out, it will break us to force through reality.

So either die in your sins or learn to walk and be open and have life.
 
Upvote 0

Anna Therese

Active Member
May 18, 2018
65
43
35
USA
✟19,109.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Actually what James is saying is a person is not saved by faith without works. Meaning if a person has faith they will do good works. Our works do not play a part in our salvation. We are saved by God’s grace thru our faith. James mentions two types of faith. There’s a saving faith that produces works and there’s a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith. We are saved by the type of faith that produces works. Not by the works themselves. :)

"You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only" (James 2:24).

James does not say if a person has faith they will necessarily do good works, for as regards faith by itself: "the devils also believe, and tremble" (James 2:19).

Rather, in addition to faith, it is through good works (again, they are called good works because they are works done for God and with God) that we acquire love for Him. And that's what's lacking in the devils - love, or charity - which, although they believe, because they believe only, are damned forever.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LightLoveHope
Upvote 0

Anna Therese

Active Member
May 18, 2018
65
43
35
USA
✟19,109.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
How would you reason the following?

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.


21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe Rom3:20-22

Sin is the transgression of the law 1John3:4

The phrase "works of the law" which Paul is referring to living "as do the Jews," observing the Old Law with its circumcision, etc. Romans 3:1- “What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there of circumcision?” It's not referring to all works and human deeds.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Anna Therese

Active Member
May 18, 2018
65
43
35
USA
✟19,109.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Hi Anna Therese, I believe that St. James is contrasting two kinds of faith for us in his 2nd Chapter, one that saves, and one that does not//one that 'results' in both salvation and then good works and everything else that "accompanies" salvation, and one that results in nothing (neither salvation nor works). ...

What is the faith that does not save?
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,593
7,366
Dallas
✟887,666.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
"You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only" (James 2:24).

James does not say if a person has faith they will necessarily do good works, for as regards faith by itself: "the devils also believe, and tremble" (James 2:19).

Rather, in addition to faith, it is through good works (again, they are called good works because they are works done for God and with God) that we acquire love for Him. And that's what's lacking in the devils - love, or charity - which, although they believe, because they believe only, are damned forever.

Personally I believe James is talking about two different types of faith. Works cannot attribute to our faith otherwise salvation would be based on faith and works instead of faith that produces works. The works would play a role in our salvation. The definition of grace is a free and unmerited favor of God. So we cannot do anything to earn grace.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: St_Worm2
Upvote 0

St_Worm2

Simul Justus et Peccator
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2002
27,472
45,429
67
✟2,928,677.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
What is the faith that does not save?
Hi Anna Therese, St. James calls it a "dead" faith, a faith like demons possess (and shudder because of) .. James 2:17, 19. It's a faith that bears no fruit/results in nothing, because it is simply a mental assent that is borne from within us, not a gift from God/not the result of the changes He makes in those of us who are His, whose hearts He has quickened/made alive and brought to spiritual life .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:1-5, 8.

It is therefore a faith that cannot be demonstrated/justified/proven to be true (by those of us who cannot see the heart like God can) .. e.g. James 2:18, 24.

For 30 years I possessed this kind of faith, a "dead" faith. I was baptized as an infant and grew up in the church. I attended Sunday School, sang in the children's choir, was confirmed, went on retreats, attended church regularly through college, you know, the whole 9 yards. So I always believed that I was a Christian (why would I not have?), until the day I actually became one that is, 2 months after my 30th birthday on 11/2/86. That's the day that EVERYTHING changed :)

Like @BNR32FAN just said above, the works that we come to do by faith are not salvific, only Jesus' works are. Only His works merit the mercy and grace of God, and the gift of faith by which we come to believe/trust/surrender our lives to Him. Therefore, He is our only innocence, our only righteousness, and the only atonement for our sins .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:21, Romans 5:8-10.

As my signature line quote states, we are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone (because ~saving/lively~ faith always bears fruit/results in the things that accompany salvation).

Yours and His,
David

Titus 3
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.
.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Anna Therese

Active Member
May 18, 2018
65
43
35
USA
✟19,109.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Personally I believe James is talking about two different types of faith. Works cannot attribute to our faith otherwise salvation would be based on faith and works instead of faith that produces works. The works would play a role in our salvation. The definition of grace is a free and unmerited favor of God. So we cannot do anything to earn grace.

Grace, in general, is defined by the Catholic Church as "a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation, whether the latter be furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness." Actual grace is defined as "a supernatural help of God for salutary acts granted in consideration of the merits of Christ" (Catholic Encyclopedia, grace).


For example, the initial grace of receiving water baptism is not a work of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8-9) since there is no work we can do to substitute for the power of water baptism.

An example of actual grace is when a person resists a temptation to sin. He receives supernatural help from God (grace) and cooperates with that grace enabling him to resist a certain sin which he may be strongly inclined to in the moment.


It is Jesus who saves by making salvation possible. We cannot do anything without Jesus. However, we must cooperate with God's grace. By cooperating and taking advantage of the salvation made available, and doing the things God requires of us, we will be saved. Salvation is based on faith and works. Works do play a role in our salvation. That's the Catholic view and that's what the Bible teaches.

It's contradictory to say, "works cannot attribute to our faith" but "that faith produces works."

James 2:17- "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." In other words, faith, being alone (faith alone), is dead. It would be analogous to the Parable of the Talents. The one who buried his talent in the ground is an example of faith alone. The good and faithful servant who doubled his talents heard the words from his master, "Well done." We can do many things to merit many more graces, but first we must receive initial grace of water baptism which is not a work of ourselves, but the free gift of God; just as the good and faithful servant doubled his master's talents, but he first needed to receive that initial talents from his master.
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,024
7,364
60
Indianapolis, IN
✟549,630.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Grace, in general, is defined by the Catholic Church as "a supernatural gift of God to intellectual creatures (men, angels) for their eternal salvation, whether the latter be furthered and attained through salutary acts or a state of holiness." Actual grace is defined as "a supernatural help of God for salutary acts granted in consideration of the merits of Christ" (Catholic Encyclopedia, grace).


For example, the initial grace of receiving water baptism is not a work of ourselves (Ephesians 2:8-9) since there is no work we can do to substitute for the power of water baptism.

An example of actual grace is when a person resists a temptation to sin. He receives supernatural help from God (grace) and cooperates with that grace enabling him to resist a certain sin which he may be strongly inclined to in the moment.


It is Jesus who saves by making salvation possible. We cannot do anything without Jesus. However, we must cooperate with God's grace. By cooperating and taking advantage of the salvation made available, and doing the things God requires of us, we will be saved. Salvation is based on faith and works. Works do play a role in our salvation. That's the Catholic view and that's what the Bible teaches.

It's contradictory to say, "works cannot attribute to our faith" but "that faith produces works."

James 2:17- "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." In other words, faith, being alone (faith alone), is dead. It would be analogous to the Parable of the Talents. The one who buried his talent in the ground is an example of faith alone. The good and faithful servant who doubled his talents heard the words from his master, "Well done." We can do many things to merit many more graces, but first we must receive initial grace of water baptism which is not a work of ourselves, but the free gift of God; just as the good and faithful servant doubled his master's talents, but he first needed to receive that initial talents from his master.
James 2:17 has nothing to do with water baptism, the works James is talking about are the fruit of the Holy Spirit, he refers to as the royal law. The rich, like now, thought themselves superior to the poor. James scathingly indicts them of favortism and other mistreatment. Now that would have been a cultural norm but James is asking them a serious question, is this how saving faith expresses itself. Paul is dealing with the exact sam thing in 1 Cor. 11, the rich are getting drunk and gorging themselves while the poor, probanly slaves, go hungry. Paul says because they failed to discern the body of Christ. That's not an unsalted wafer, the body of Christ is made up of believers which Paul explains at great length in chapter twelve. Am I the only one who likes to read verses like this in their natural context.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Anna Therese

Active Member
May 18, 2018
65
43
35
USA
✟19,109.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
It's a faith that bears no fruit/results in nothing, because it is simply a mental assent that is borne from within us, not a gift from God/not the result of the changes He makes in those of us who are His...

The Catholic definition of faith is the assent of the mind to Divine Revelation. For example, the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity. This faith is supernatural. It is a gift of God. The assent of the mind to Divine Revelation cannot happen without divine grace, actual or sanctifying, or both.


For 30 years I possessed this kind of faith, a "dead" faith. I was baptized as an infant and grew up in the church. I attended Sunday School, sang in the children's choir, was confirmed, went on retreats, attended church regularly through college, you know, the whole 9 yards. So I always believed that I was a Christian (why would I not have?), until the day I actually became one that is, 2 months after my 30th birthday on 11/2/86. That's the day that EVERYTHING changed :)


What specifically changed? Can you give some examples? What occurred spiritually or otherwise that enabled you to pass from a "dead faith" to one that you believe is now alive?
 
Upvote 0

justbyfaith

justified sinner
May 19, 2017
3,461
572
51
Southern California
✟3,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
The key is understanding how Sanctification also plays a part in the salvation process is understanding that it is God or Christ doing the good work in you and it is not you alone doing that good work. So all glory, praise, and thanks goes to Jesus for any good done in our lives and it is not ourselves.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).



Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).


A Short Break-down of Faith and Works in Regards to Salvation:

Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 are basically saying we are not saved by "Works Alone Salvationism." James 2:24 is saying we are not saved by "Belief Alone Salvationism" (or Faith Alone as the Bible says).

Both Ephesians 2 and Titus 3 can be read as talking about "Initial Salvation" and or "Ultimate Salvation"; And not Sanctification (as its primary focus). James 2 can be read as talking about Sanctification as its primary focus; And not "Initial Salvation or Ultimate Salvation.

I believe a person re-reading these chapters honestly in prayer with God will understand this fact.

As for Romans 3, Romans 4, and Galatians 2, Galatians 3:

Well, I believe these are all talking about how we are not to go back to the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or "Law Alone Salvationism." Granted, we are to keep the Moral Law (like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet) because these are basics in loving or doing good and they are laws that have been repeated in the New Covenant. For this is why Paul condemned "Circumcision Salvationism." (See Galatians 5:2, cf. Romans 3:1). In fact, in the Jerusalem council in Acts 15, we discover that they addressed the problem of trying to be justified in being circumcised to be saved and or going back to the Law of Moses for salvation (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24; Also see Galatians 2:3).

Some people like to think that when Paul uses the word "Law" in a negative way (in regards to salvation), they erroneously think that he is also talking about the Moral Law or in loving your neighbor, too. But Paul says that if a person does certain sins (like the breaking of the Moral Law) in Galatians 5:19-21, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, they will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

So yes. You actually have to be good as a part of being in God's Kingdom. For if we did not have to live holy as a part of salvation (After being saved by God's grace), then we can be axe murdering rapists who believe on Jesus. But surely that cannot be. For God is good; And His people are good, too.
Jason you are preachin' a false gospel!
 
  • Agree
Reactions: mark kennedy
Upvote 0

LightLoveHope

Jesus leads us to life
Oct 6, 2018
1,474
458
London
✟79,782.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I get the impression we see things in too complex a way.

When we are before our Lord, it is our reaction that determines it all.
Our actions, ways we react are the expression of our hearts.
We think often our works are something that works within rather than
they are the outflow of what God has or has not done in us.

Our problem is the disconnect between our hearts and how we behave
is often too great. But when all the doors are open and Jesus comes in
our inner life is our outer life.

We have distortions, hurts, exploding emotions that make things very
complex. But as Jesus works and we straighten out, are healed and
made whole it all becomes simpler.

So the question is why do we not help when the need is there? Why
are we hard hearted when another needs love and support?

In the world these flows do not happen because of sin and love not
working but in Jesus, with forgiveness, grace, repentance, brokenness
things work very differently.

So when people say faith and works, I see the two parts of the same
work in our lives. Salvation is Jesus walking into our lives and teaching
us the way of love and holiness.
 
Upvote 0

Anna Therese

Active Member
May 18, 2018
65
43
35
USA
✟19,109.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Regarding the Final Judgement:

Revelation 20:12-13- "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened: which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

Revelation 22:12-"And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,504
7,861
...
✟1,194,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Jason you are preachin' a false gospel!

I am pretty sure it is against forum rules to use words like this.
Anyways, in order to convince me that you are right, you have to actually respond to my points I used with Scripture by using Scripture verses of your own. Also, convince me how your belief is morally superior, too. Yes, I know my one post you thought was lengthy, but you could respond to it in pieces or parts (even if it took you a whole week to do it). I can wait. I am patient. For what lengths would you not go to help a brother?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Anna Therese

Active Member
May 18, 2018
65
43
35
USA
✟19,109.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
In the end, we will be judged according to our works: "For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh, of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit, of the spirit shall reap life everlasting."-Gal. 6:8
 
  • Like
Reactions: mark kennedy
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,504
7,861
...
✟1,194,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Jason you are preachin' a false gospel!


We need to endure in our faith to continue to be saved:

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" Hebrews 3:13-14.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12.

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13.

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:7.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5.

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21.​


Obeying God or Being Righteous is a part of eternal life:

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14.

he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Hebrews 5:9.

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law?how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." Luke 10:25-28.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21.

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." Matthew 5:8.​


Every man will be given according to what their work shall be:


"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12.​


Sin or Unfaithfulness Can Separate:

"And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." Luke 9:62.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26.

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" 1 Peter 4:17-18.

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:21-22.

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Revelation 22:19.

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.​



Source used:
Once Saved Always Saved - Fact or Fiction?
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Frankyy
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,504
7,861
...
✟1,194,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
@justbyfaith:

First, in your profile of each of your posts, it says that you are a justified sinner.
Correct me if I am wrong, but this to me sounds like what you were condemning before. A justified sinner to me is someone who still sins as a part of the description of who they are as a person. Your actions determine what kind of person you declare to be. How is that different than say the person who lives excessively in sin?

Second, you said forgiveness is what needs to be our motivation in obeying God and our obedience should not be motivated by salvation. Yet, we see in the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant that when the servant was forgiven of his past debts, and he decided to not forgive his brother, he is called a wicked servant.

32 "Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O you wicked servant, I forgave you all that debt, because you desired me:
33 Should not you also have had compassion on your fellow servant, even as I had pity on you?
34 And his lord was angry, and delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if you from your hearts forgive not everyone his brother their trespasses." (Matthew 18:32-35).​

Can wicked servants inherit the kingdom of God?

In fact, Jesus says in Matthew 6:15, that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven.

In the Parable of Talents, we learn that unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Anna Therese
Upvote 0

justbyfaith

justified sinner
May 19, 2017
3,461
572
51
Southern California
✟3,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
@justbyfaith:

First, in your profile of each of your posts, it says that you are a justified sinner.
Correct me if I am wrong, but this to me sounds like what you were condemning before. A justified sinner to me is someone who still sins as a part of the description of who they are as a person. Your actions determine what kind of person you declare to be. How is that different than say the person who lives excessively in sin?

Second, you said forgiveness is what needs to be our motivation in obeying God and our obedience should not be motivated by salvation. Yet, we see in the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant that when the servant was forgiven of his past debts, and he decided to not forgive his brother, he is called a wicked servant.

32 "Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O you wicked servant, I forgave you all that debt, because you desired me:
33 Should not you also have had compassion on your fellow servant, even as I had pity on you?
34 And his lord was angry, and delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if you from your hearts forgive not everyone his brother their trespasses." (Matthew 18:32-35).​

Can wicked servants inherit the kingdom of God?

In fact, Jesus says in Matthew 6:15, that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven.

In the Parable of Talents, we learn that unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30).
I suppose that I forgive you for teaching false doctrine; but does God?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

justbyfaith

justified sinner
May 19, 2017
3,461
572
51
Southern California
✟3,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvary Chapel
Marital Status
Married
We need to endure in our faith to continue to be saved:

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" Hebrews 3:13-14.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12.

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13.

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:7.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5.

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21.​


Obeying God or Being Righteous is a part of eternal life:

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:14.

he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Hebrews 5:9.

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law?how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live." Luke 10:25-28.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 7:21.

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." Matthew 5:8.​


Every man will be given according to what their work shall be:


"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12.​


Sin or Unfaithfulness Can Separate:

"And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." Luke 9:62.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Hebrews 10:26.

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" 1 Peter 4:17-18.

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:21-22.

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Revelation 22:19.

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.​



Source used:
Once Saved Always Saved - Fact or Fiction?
Definitely take all of these scriptures into account. Those who are born again are new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). The fruit of the Spirit is based in faith alone in Jesus Christ. If anyone truly believes in Christ, they will persevere; they will be students of the Bible and will heed every warning that is in the word and will obey Jesus' command to persevere. Though I myself am beginning to grow weary, and covet the prayers of those of you who have that as a ministry.

Salvation is by grace through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works: lest any man should boast.

Endless arguments on the internet are starting to get to me. I do much work only to have it buried because someone wants to rehash the argument that was demolished before. So the newer posts are ruled and reigned by people who hold to false doctrine of salvation by works.

If I do not persevere at arguing on the internet over the same old squabbles, then does that mean I am not persevering in the faith?

I think that others who have heard me in times past and been redeemed by what I have said to them can begin to take up the slack.
 
Upvote 0