Faith Plus Works

BNR32FAN

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While the Bible is physically written by the hand of many authors, I see it as God who is the original author; Therefore, seeing it is God who is the author ultimately, I believe His Word for us today can be shown that it is divine in origin. There are tests to confirm this if you are really interested in finding God's Word that is perfect and divine for our generation today as the Scriptures say. If you are not looking for that (for whatever motivation or personal reason), then you will never find it or see it. I know without a shadow of a doubt that the KJV is divine and perfect just as I know Jesus is real. But I will let you search out that truth for yourself on your own. But the KJV being perfect and divine is not what the thread topic is about. So I think it is best to move on from this particular point or discussion.

May God bless you.

Agreed please understand that I have nothing against the KJV it’s just not my first preference. I do sometimes quote from the KJV in some situations. I was merely explaining why I prefer the ASV and pointing out the mistakes that the writer of the website has made in regards to the ASV.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Agreed please understand that I have nothing against the KJV it’s just not my first preference. I do sometimes quote from the KJV in some situations. I was merely explaining why I prefer the ASV and pointing out the mistakes that the writer of the website has made in regards to the ASV.

I do not agree with much they say. They also seem to bash others in a way that is not loving or Christ like. I only agree with some articles they have written. The KJV to me is the Word of God for our day. We must all pray and be guided to find that one Word of God that we feel is our authority and not try to be biased.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I do not agree with much they say. They also seem to bash others in a way that is not loving or Christ like. I only agree with some articles they have written. The KJV to me is the Word of God for our day. We must all pray and be guided to find that one Word of God that we feel is our authority and not try to be biased.

I don’t know about bashing but sometimes it’s hard to take a contrary position without offending someone and sometimes the truth hurts. From what I’ve seen most OC followers have always been very humble and polite.
 
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I don’t know about bashing but sometimes it’s hard to take a contrary position without offending someone and sometimes the truth hurts. From what I’ve seen most OC followers have always been very humble and polite.

I am just calling it like I see it. I know I would not do the same. I strive to attack the false belief and not individuals.
 
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Danthemailman

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What is the faith that does not save?
An empty profession of faith/dead faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. Again, if someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
 
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Danthemailman

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"You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only" (James 2:24).

James does not say if a person has faith they will necessarily do good works, for as regards faith by itself: "the devils also believe, and tremble" (James 2:19).

Rather, in addition to faith, it is through good works (again, they are called good works because they are works done for God and with God) that we acquire love for Him. And that's what's lacking in the devils - love, or charity - which, although they believe, because they believe only, are damned forever.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was "justified." He was "shown to be righteous."

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven, lack of love/charity and continuous evil works.
 
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Danthemailman

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Why do some people think an apple tree grows apples to become an apple tree, rather than because it already is one?
Amen! An apple tree grows apples BECAUSE it's a living apple tree and not in order to become a living apple tree; just as faith produces works BECAUSE it's a living faith (Ephesians 2:5-10) and not in order to become a living faith.
 
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Danthemailman

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The phrase "works of the law" which Paul is referring to living "as do the Jews," observing the Old Law with its circumcision, etc. Romans 3:1- “What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there of circumcision?” It's not referring to all works and human deeds.
hmm.. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Please tell me which good works are there that a Christian can accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any genuine good works that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? ;)

*When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law, so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (good works) argument is bogus. Elsewhere, Paul said that it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5) and that God saved us and called us with a holy calling not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9) So Paul is referring to all works and human deeds. :oldthumbsup:
 
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Alithis

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In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was "justified." He was "shown to be righteous."

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven, lack of love/charity and continuous evil works.
Oh the irony of it...

Faith in thier leader of sin is shown by continuous works of evil..
But faith in JESUS is not shown by continuous Good works ?????????

Such contradiction
 
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Danthemailman

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Oh the irony of it...

Faith in thier leader of sin is shown by continuous works of evil..
What irony?

But faith in JESUS is not shown by continuous Good works ?????????

Such contradiction
No contradiction at all. In regards to demons, their trust and reliance is in Satan (and not in Jesus) and their continuous evil works demonstrate this. Believers trust and reliance is in Jesus, as shown by their continuous good works. Believers show their faith by their works. (James 2:14-18) Simple! :oldthumbsup:
 
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Alithis

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What irony?

No contradiction at all. In regards to demons, their trust and reliance is in Satan (and not in Jesus) and their continuous evil works demonstrate this. Believers trust and reliance is in Jesus, as shown by their continuous good works. Believers show their faith by their works. (James 2:14-18) Simple! :oldthumbsup:
apologies -i misread you
 
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corinth77777

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An empty profession of faith/dead faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. Again, if someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
Hi,
Is it truly faith at all? The type of faith that delivers.
That is what I feel it's saying.
Therefore it begs the question of are there 2 types of faith.
One where you believe something to be true and another where you act on it.
It kind of seems like Jesus modeled true faith....For He was obedient to His father even onto death.
 
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Alithis

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Hi,
Is it truly faith at all? The type of faith that delivers.
That is what I feel it's saying.
Therefore it begs the question of are there 2 types of faith.
One where you believe something to be true and another where you act on it.
It kind of seems like Jesus modeled true faith....For He was obedient to His father even onto death.
Pistos... Equally translated believe or faith.
Both an action.
But i think we all know this deep down.we know if we dont Do what the lord says we dont truly believe him .
 
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ladodgers6

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Personally I believe James is talking about two different types of faith. Works cannot attribute to our faith otherwise salvation would be based on faith and works instead of faith that produces works. The works would play a role in our salvation. The definition of grace is a free and unmerited favor of God. So we cannot do anything to earn grace.
Amen! I love hearing, and reading this marvelous Gospel! If I may add to this? James is speaking to believers. He is echoing Paul's Romans 6. 'Shall we continue to sin since we are under Grace' or 'shall we sin so that grace may abound?'. Paul explicitly states that the Gospel is not a license to sin. So, what are we talking about here? It's Sanctification of the believer, not justification of the believer!

Justification of the sinner is a one time declaration act of God! That the curse of the Law has been removed by Christ, through his perfect works that fulfilled the Law demands for perfect holiness! This righteousness of Christ is imputed or credited to the sinner; which is received through faith Alone; not through works. Paul makes it clear that no flesh will be justified through the Law! Why? Because of the fall and sin! We need a Savior, a Redeemer!!!

Sanctification on the other hand is a life long process. Each day practicing good works that follow from our justification in Christ Alone!!!
 
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BNR32FAN

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Amen! I love hearing, and reading this marvelous Gospel! If I may add to this? James is speaking to believers. He is echoing Paul's Romans 6. 'Shall we continue to sin since we are under Grace' or 'shall we sin so that grace may abound?'. Paul explicitly states that the Gospel is not a license to sin. So, what are we talking about here? It's Sanctification of the believer, not justification of the believer!

Justification of the sinner is a one time declaration act of God! That the curse of the Law has been removed by Christ, through his perfect works that fulfilled the Law demands for perfect holiness! This righteousness of Christ is imputed or credited to the sinner; which is received through faith Alone; not through works. Paul makes it clear that no flesh will be justified through the Law! Why? Because of the fall and sin! We need a Savior, a Redeemer!!!

Sanctification on the other hand is a life long process. Each day practicing good works that follow from our justification in Christ Alone!!!

I agree James is speaking to believers and in verse 14 he says

James 2:14

14 What [is] the profit, my brethren, if faith, any one may speak of having, and works he may not have? is that faith able to save him?

If a believer who has faith that does not have works and that faith is not able to save him how is he justified?
 
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ladodgers6

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I agree James is speaking to believers and in verse 14 he says

James 2:14

14 What [is] the profit, my brethren, if faith, any one may speak of having, and works he may not have? is that faith able to save him?

If a believer who has faith that does not have works and that faith is not able to save him how is he justified?

By trusting only in Christ who came to save sinners! He came to save vile, wicked, wretched, evil sinners! Believe this and you should be saved! Trusting and believing in who Jesus said he is, and what he accomplished on the Cross for YOU/ME! You are saved! Now, that we are saved in Christ Alone apart from works! We start to walk in holiness. Doing for others, preaching God's word, helping the sick or poor. But this does not add anything to our salvation!

As Calvin said, repentance is the life of the believer! Stop being mean or disrespectful to others, even our enemies! Love, care, be kind to others. The Law of God for believers is now a guide for godly living. But always remember that its Christ and his works, that we are able to stand firm before the throne and judgement seat of God!

Galatians 6:9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

I also have a gem for you to research, here is this to get you started. Its called: Simultaneously Saint & Sinner by Martin Luther!


Luther on” Simul Iustus et Peccator” – Simultaneously Saint & Sinner
Thus a Christian person is righteous and a sinner at the same time, holy and profane, an enemy of God and a child of God. None of the sophists will admit this paradox, because they do not understand the true meaning of justification. This was why they forced men to go on doing good works until they would not feel any sin at all. By this means they drove to the point of insanity many people who tried with all their might to become completely righteous in a formal sense but could not accomplish it. And innumerable persons even among the authors of this wicked dogma were driven into despair at the hour of death, which is what would have happened to me if Christ had not looked at me in mercy and liberated me from this error.
We, on the other hand, teach and comfort an afflicted sinner this way: “Brother, it is impossible for you to become so righteous in this life that your body is as clear and spotless as the sun. You still have spots and wrinkles (Eph. 5:27), and yet you are holy.” But you say: “How can I be holy when I have sin and am aware of it?” “That you feel and acknowledge sin—this is good. Thank God, and do not despair. It is one step toward health when a sick man admits and confesses his disease.” “But how will I be liberated from sin?” “Run to Christ, the Physician, who heals the contrite of heart and saves sinners. Believe in Him. If you believe, you are righteous, because you attribute to God the glory of being almighty, merciful, truthful, etc. You justify and praise God. In short, you attribute divinity and everything to Him. And the sin that still remains in you is not imputed but is forgiven for the sake of Christ, in whom you believe and who is perfectly righteous in a formal sense. His righteousness is yours; your sin is His.”
As I have said, therefore, any Christian is a supreme pontiff, because, first, he offers and slaughters his reason and the mind of the flesh, and, secondly, he attributes to God the glory of being righteous, truthful, patient, kind, and merciful. This is the continuous evening and morning sacrifice in the New Testament. The evening sacrifice is to kill the reason, and the morning sacrifice is to glorify God. Thus a Christian is involved, daily and perpetually, in this double sacrifice and in its practice. No one can adequately proclaim the value and the dignity of Christian sacrifice.
Therefore this is a marvelous definition of Christian righteousness: it is a divine imputation or reckoning as righteousness or to righteousness, for the sake of our faith in Christ or for the sake of Christ. When the sophists hear this definition, they laugh; for they suppose that righteousness is a certain quality that is first infused into the soul and then distributed through all the members. They cannot strip off the thoughts of reason, which declares that righteousness is aright judgment and a right will. Therefore this inestimable gift excels all reason, that without any works God reckons and acknowledges as righteous the man who takes hold by faith of His Son, who was sent into the world, who was born, who suffered, and who was crucified for us.
So far as the words are concerned, this fact is easy, namely, that righteousness is not in us in a formal sense, as Aristotle maintains, but is outside us, solely in the grace of God and in His imputation, In us there is nothing of the form or of the righteousness except that weak faith or the first fruits of faith by which we have begun to take hold of Christ. Meanwhile sin truly remains within us. But the fact itself is not easy or trivial; it is serious and important, because the Christ who is given to us has not done something meager for us and has not been playing. But, as Paul said earlier (Gal. 2:20), He “loved us and gave Himself for us”; and (Gal. 3:13) “He became a curse for us.” It is not an idle speculation that Christ was given for my sins and was made accursed for me in order that I might be rescued from eternal death. To take hold of the Son and to believe
in Him with the heart as the gift of God causes God to reckon that faith, however imperfect it may be, as perfect righteousness. Here we are in an altogether different world—a world that is outside reason. Here the issue is not what we ought to do or by what sort of works we may merit grace and the forgiveness of sins. No, here we are in a divine theology, where we hear the Gospel that Christ died for us and that when we believe this we are reckoned as righteous, even though sins, and great ones at that, still remain in us.
This is also how Christ defines the righteousness of faith in the Gospel of John. He says (John 16:27): “The Father Himself loves you. Why does He love you? Not because you were Pharisees, irreproachable in the righteousness of the Law, circumcised, doing good works, fasting, etc. But it is because ‘I chose you out of the world’ (John 15:19). And you have not done anything except that ‘you have loved Me and have believed that I came from the Father.’ This object, this ‘I’ sent from the Father into the world, this pleased you. And because you have taken hold of this object, the Father loves you, and you please Him.” Nevertheless, in another passage He calls them evil and tells them to ask for the forgiveness of sins. These two things are diametrically opposed: that a Christian is righteous and beloved by God, and yet that he is a sinner at the same time. For God cannot deny His own nature. That is, He cannot avoid hating sin and sinners; and He does so by necessity, for otherwise He would be unjust and would love sin. Then how can these two contradictory things both be true at the same time, that I am a sinner and deserve divine wrath and hate, and that the Father loves me? Here nothing can intervene except Christ the Mediator. “The Father,” He says, “loves you, not because you are deserving of love, but because you have loved Me and have believed that I came from the Father” (John 16:27).
Thus a Christian remains in pure humility. He really and truly feels that there is sin in him and that on this account he is worthy of wrath, the judgment of God, and eternal death. Thus he is humbled in this life. Yet at the same time he remains in a pure and holy pride, by which he turns to Christ. Through Him he strengthens himself against this feeling of divine wrath and judgment; and he believes that he is loved by the Father, not for his own sake but for the sake of Christ, the Beloved.
From this it is clear how faith justifies without works and how the imputation of righteousness is necessary nevertheless. Sins remain in us, and God hates them very much. Because of them it is necessary for us to have the imputation of righteousness, which comes to us on account of Christ, who is given to us and grasped by our faith. Meanwhile, as long as we are alive, we are supported and nourished at the bosom of divine mercy and forbearance, until the body of sin (Rom. 6:6) is abolished and we are raised up as new beings on that Day. Then there will be new heavens and a new earth (Rev. 21:1), in which righteousness will dwell. Under the present heaven meanwhile sin and wicked men dwell, and the godly have sin. Therefore Paul complains in Rom. 7:23 about the sin that still remains in the saints, and yet he says later on (Rom. 8:1) that “there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” Who will reconcile those utterly conflicting statements, that the sin in us is not sin, that he who is damnable will not be damned, that he who is rejected will not be rejected, that he who is worthy of wrath and eternal death will not receive these punishments? Only the Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ (1 Tim. 2:5). As Paul says, “there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”1

1 Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 26: Lectures on Galatians, 1535, Chapters 1-4. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 26, pp. 232–236). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House

Let me know if you need for help?

In Christ Alone!!!
 
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BNR32FAN

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By trusting only in Christ who came to save sinners! He came to save vile, wicked, wretched, evil sinners! Believe this and you should be saved! Trusting and believing in who Jesus said he is, and what he accomplished on the Cross for YOU/ME! You are saved! Now, that we are saved in Christ Alone apart from works! We start to walk in holiness. Doing for others, preaching God's word, helping the sick or poor. But this does not add anything to our salvation!

As Calvin said, repentance is the life of the believer! Stop being mean or disrespectful to others, even our enemies! Love, care, be kind to others. The Law of God for believers is now a guide for godly living. But always remember that its Christ and his works, that we are able to stand firm before the throne and judgement seat of God!

Galatians 6:9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

I also have a gem for you to research, here is this to get you started. Its called: Simultaneously Saint & Sinner by Martin Luther!


Luther on” Simul Iustus et Peccator” – Simultaneously Saint & Sinner
Thus a Christian person is righteous and a sinner at the same time, holy and profane, an enemy of God and a child of God. None of the sophists will admit this paradox, because they do not understand the true meaning of justification. This was why they forced men to go on doing good works until they would not feel any sin at all. By this means they drove to the point of insanity many people who tried with all their might to become completely righteous in a formal sense but could not accomplish it. And innumerable persons even among the authors of this wicked dogma were driven into despair at the hour of death, which is what would have happened to me if Christ had not looked at me in mercy and liberated me from this error.
We, on the other hand, teach and comfort an afflicted sinner this way: “Brother, it is impossible for you to become so righteous in this life that your body is as clear and spotless as the sun. You still have spots and wrinkles (Eph. 5:27), and yet you are holy.” But you say: “How can I be holy when I have sin and am aware of it?” “That you feel and acknowledge sin—this is good. Thank God, and do not despair. It is one step toward health when a sick man admits and confesses his disease.” “But how will I be liberated from sin?” “Run to Christ, the Physician, who heals the contrite of heart and saves sinners. Believe in Him. If you believe, you are righteous, because you attribute to God the glory of being almighty, merciful, truthful, etc. You justify and praise God. In short, you attribute divinity and everything to Him. And the sin that still remains in you is not imputed but is forgiven for the sake of Christ, in whom you believe and who is perfectly righteous in a formal sense. His righteousness is yours; your sin is His.”
As I have said, therefore, any Christian is a supreme pontiff, because, first, he offers and slaughters his reason and the mind of the flesh, and, secondly, he attributes to God the glory of being righteous, truthful, patient, kind, and merciful. This is the continuous evening and morning sacrifice in the New Testament. The evening sacrifice is to kill the reason, and the morning sacrifice is to glorify God. Thus a Christian is involved, daily and perpetually, in this double sacrifice and in its practice. No one can adequately proclaim the value and the dignity of Christian sacrifice.
Therefore this is a marvelous definition of Christian righteousness: it is a divine imputation or reckoning as righteousness or to righteousness, for the sake of our faith in Christ or for the sake of Christ. When the sophists hear this definition, they laugh; for they suppose that righteousness is a certain quality that is first infused into the soul and then distributed through all the members. They cannot strip off the thoughts of reason, which declares that righteousness is aright judgment and a right will. Therefore this inestimable gift excels all reason, that without any works God reckons and acknowledges as righteous the man who takes hold by faith of His Son, who was sent into the world, who was born, who suffered, and who was crucified for us.
So far as the words are concerned, this fact is easy, namely, that righteousness is not in us in a formal sense, as Aristotle maintains, but is outside us, solely in the grace of God and in His imputation, In us there is nothing of the form or of the righteousness except that weak faith or the first fruits of faith by which we have begun to take hold of Christ. Meanwhile sin truly remains within us. But the fact itself is not easy or trivial; it is serious and important, because the Christ who is given to us has not done something meager for us and has not been playing. But, as Paul said earlier (Gal. 2:20), He “loved us and gave Himself for us”; and (Gal. 3:13) “He became a curse for us.” It is not an idle speculation that Christ was given for my sins and was made accursed for me in order that I might be rescued from eternal death. To take hold of the Son and to believe
in Him with the heart as the gift of God causes God to reckon that faith, however imperfect it may be, as perfect righteousness. Here we are in an altogether different world—a world that is outside reason. Here the issue is not what we ought to do or by what sort of works we may merit grace and the forgiveness of sins. No, here we are in a divine theology, where we hear the Gospel that Christ died for us and that when we believe this we are reckoned as righteous, even though sins, and great ones at that, still remain in us.
This is also how Christ defines the righteousness of faith in the Gospel of John. He says (John 16:27): “The Father Himself loves you. Why does He love you? Not because you were Pharisees, irreproachable in the righteousness of the Law, circumcised, doing good works, fasting, etc. But it is because ‘I chose you out of the world’ (John 15:19). And you have not done anything except that ‘you have loved Me and have believed that I came from the Father.’ This object, this ‘I’ sent from the Father into the world, this pleased you. And because you have taken hold of this object, the Father loves you, and you please Him.” Nevertheless, in another passage He calls them evil and tells them to ask for the forgiveness of sins. These two things are diametrically opposed: that a Christian is righteous and beloved by God, and yet that he is a sinner at the same time. For God cannot deny His own nature. That is, He cannot avoid hating sin and sinners; and He does so by necessity, for otherwise He would be unjust and would love sin. Then how can these two contradictory things both be true at the same time, that I am a sinner and deserve divine wrath and hate, and that the Father loves me? Here nothing can intervene except Christ the Mediator. “The Father,” He says, “loves you, not because you are deserving of love, but because you have loved Me and have believed that I came from the Father” (John 16:27).
Thus a Christian remains in pure humility. He really and truly feels that there is sin in him and that on this account he is worthy of wrath, the judgment of God, and eternal death. Thus he is humbled in this life. Yet at the same time he remains in a pure and holy pride, by which he turns to Christ. Through Him he strengthens himself against this feeling of divine wrath and judgment; and he believes that he is loved by the Father, not for his own sake but for the sake of Christ, the Beloved.
From this it is clear how faith justifies without works and how the imputation of righteousness is necessary nevertheless. Sins remain in us, and God hates them very much. Because of them it is necessary for us to have the imputation of righteousness, which comes to us on account of Christ, who is given to us and grasped by our faith. Meanwhile, as long as we are alive, we are supported and nourished at the bosom of divine mercy and forbearance, until the body of sin (Rom. 6:6) is abolished and we are raised up as new beings on that Day. Then there will be new heavens and a new earth (Rev. 21:1), in which righteousness will dwell. Under the present heaven meanwhile sin and wicked men dwell, and the godly have sin. Therefore Paul complains in Rom. 7:23 about the sin that still remains in the saints, and yet he says later on (Rom. 8:1) that “there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” Who will reconcile those utterly conflicting statements, that the sin in us is not sin, that he who is damnable will not be damned, that he who is rejected will not be rejected, that he who is worthy of wrath and eternal death will not receive these punishments? Only the Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ (1 Tim. 2:5). As Paul says, “there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”1

1 Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 26: Lectures on Galatians, 1535, Chapters 1-4. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 26, pp. 232–236). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House

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In Christ Alone!!!

Salvation is not contingent on simply believing. That’s what James is referring to in James 2:19-20. I noticed you didn’t comment on James 2:14.

“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬

“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:19-20‬

But if you really want a prime example take a look at John 15:1-10.


“I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬

Many people misunderstand John 15 because they try to view it in a way that doesn’t contradict their beliefs. But if you study the definitions of the key words then it’s easy to see that the result of not producing fruit and abiding is loss of salvation. For example what does “taketh away” mean in verse 2? It is translated from the Greek word aírō (G142) which means.


Definition

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

Notice the definition in bold letters. This is the correct definition because the branch is attached to the vine. We know this because verse 2 says “Every branch in Me He taketh away”. If the branch is in Christ it is attached to the vine.

Notice verses 3-4
“Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:3-4‬

Here Jesus is saying to His 11 faithful apostles “abide in Me” “YOU cannot bear fruitful EXCEPT/UNLESS YOU remain in Me”. Now look at the implications here. These are very powerful words. Jesus is directing this message to His 11 faithful apostles whom we know without a doubt that Jesus knew they believed according to John 6:64. Jesus is implying that there is a possibility that they can fail to abide or remain in Him. According to the doctrine of eternal security this means Jesus is warning His apostles of doing something that is impossible for them to do. Why would Jesus warn them to abide in Him if they are incapable of falling away? Jesus knew they still have free will and they needed this message to stay the course. Notice in the first verse of the very next chapter while they are still walking to Gethsemane Jesus says to them ““These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be caused to stumble.”

John 16:1”. Let’s continue.

“I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:5‬

Two key things to focus on here. Those who abide in Jesus WILL PRODUCE MUCH FRUIT. Not might produce or may or can produce some fruit. Will produce much fruit. It is inevitable absolutely will happen of course if given the opportunity. The thief on the cross is an example of someone who didn’t have much of an opportunity to produce fruit or do good works. He did defend Jesus against the other criminals who were mocking Jesus. So he did produce some fruit but he was pretty limited considering he was nailed to a cross. But for those who have the capability to produce fruit and do not out of laziness unwilling to do God’s work they will face the consequences of verses 2 and 6. Now the second point of focus is “apart from Me YOU can do nothing”. Why would Jesus warn His faithful 11 apostles of doing something they cannot possibly do? The warning itself implies that they must be capable of not abiding otherwise the message is completely useless. Let’s continue to verse 6.

“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6‬

So let’s look at the Greek definition of the word bállō (G906) which is translated to cast or throw which means


1) to throw or let go of a thing without caring where it falls a) to scatter, to throw, cast into b) to give over to one's care uncertain about the result c) of fluids

1) to pour, pour into of rivers

2) to pour out

2) to put into, insert


Grammar:

a primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense):--arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare ῥίπτω.


Basically it means to carelessly throw down or thrust in a violent or intense manner without regard.


Next let’s look at the word wither which is translated from the Greek word xēraínō (G3583)


1) to make dry, dry up, wither

2) to become dry, to be dry, be withered a) of plants b) of the ripening of crops c) of fluids d) of the members of the body

3) to waste away, pine away, i.e. a withered hand


To dry up or waste away.


Lastly let’s look at the definition of the word burned translated from the Greek word kaíō (G2545) which means


1) to set on fire, light, burning

2) to burn, consume with fire


Pretty basic definition as you would expect.


So let’s review and put it all into perspective. So we have Jesus warning His 11 faithful apostles to abide in Him even explaining the consequences of failing to abide while the doctrine of eternal security suggests it is impossible for the faithful 11 not to abide, at least not unto the point of loss of salvation. But look at the consequences Jesus described in the proper translation. They are cut off or removed from the vine (Jesus). That in itself cannot result in salvation without repentance. They are cast or thrown away (carelessly violently intensely without regard) to wither (dry up and waste away) then thrown (again carelessly violently intensely without regard) into the fire to be burned (set on fire or consumed by fire). For anyone who questions the definitions I’ve provided for these words you can search it for yourself using the Strong’s concordance reference numbers I provided. Just google Strong’s concordance then type in the letter and number and you can see the definitions for yourself. I provided the number right after the Greek transliteration. For example search “Strong’s Concordance G142 and you’ll get the information for the Greek word aírō which means to take away, lift up, etc. If you question whether or not these are the correct Greek words in the scriptures just google John 15 Greek Interlinear and you can see the original Greek texts with translations and the Strong’s Concordance reference numbers. Here’s a link to make it easier. KJV w/ Strong's Concordance - John 15
 
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ladodgers6

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I believe I did answer this. I hope you are reading my entire post. A Orthodox Priest was asked, "Father are we saved by Faith or by Works?". Neither the Father replied. But by the Mercy of God!

Titus 3:5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I will leave you with this for now!

P.S. remember that fruits of the tree come after the tree is planted in the vine and grows from the seed.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I believe I did answer this. I hope you are reading my entire post. A Orthodox Priest was asked, "Father are we saved by Faith or by Works?". Neither the Father replied. But by the Mercy of God!

Titus 3:5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I will leave you with this for now!

P.S. remember that fruits of the tree come after the tree is planted in the vine and grows from the seed.

Yes we are saved by faith not our works which is why I posted James 2:14. Can “THAT FAITH” save him? “THAT FAITH” being a faith which does not produce works. I didn’t read your quote from Martin Luther his views are flawed and not deemed as an inspired writing of God. Not to mention that the earliest church writings do not reflect his beliefs. Not one of the churches established by the apostles ever taught eternal security. What was the point of Jesus establishing a church if it would fail to present the gospel the way He intended it for the first 1600 years of Christianity? Did the men Hesus chose fail to do the job He hand picked them to do? Did His church fail to prevail over evil? I’m sorry but I’ve come to a more comprehensive understanding of the scriptures and it was in my attempts to defend the doctrine of eternal security without contradicting John 15 and the more I studied it the more I became aware that John 15 cannot be correctly interpreted without contradicting eternal security.
 
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BNR32FAN

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By trusting only in Christ who came to save sinners! He came to save vile, wicked, wretched, evil sinners! Believe this and you should be saved! Trusting and believing in who Jesus said he is, and what he accomplished on the Cross for YOU/ME! You are saved! Now, that we are saved in Christ Alone apart from works! We start to walk in holiness. Doing for others, preaching God's word, helping the sick or poor. But this does not add anything to our salvation!

As Calvin said, repentance is the life of the believer! Stop being mean or disrespectful to others, even our enemies! Love, care, be kind to others. The Law of God for believers is now a guide for godly living. But always remember that its Christ and his works, that we are able to stand firm before the throne and judgement seat of God!

Galatians 6:9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

I also have a gem for you to research, here is this to get you started. Its called: Simultaneously Saint & Sinner by Martin Luther!


Luther on” Simul Iustus et Peccator” – Simultaneously Saint & Sinner
Thus a Christian person is righteous and a sinner at the same time, holy and profane, an enemy of God and a child of God. None of the sophists will admit this paradox, because they do not understand the true meaning of justification. This was why they forced men to go on doing good works until they would not feel any sin at all. By this means they drove to the point of insanity many people who tried with all their might to become completely righteous in a formal sense but could not accomplish it. And innumerable persons even among the authors of this wicked dogma were driven into despair at the hour of death, which is what would have happened to me if Christ had not looked at me in mercy and liberated me from this error.
We, on the other hand, teach and comfort an afflicted sinner this way: “Brother, it is impossible for you to become so righteous in this life that your body is as clear and spotless as the sun. You still have spots and wrinkles (Eph. 5:27), and yet you are holy.” But you say: “How can I be holy when I have sin and am aware of it?” “That you feel and acknowledge sin—this is good. Thank God, and do not despair. It is one step toward health when a sick man admits and confesses his disease.” “But how will I be liberated from sin?” “Run to Christ, the Physician, who heals the contrite of heart and saves sinners. Believe in Him. If you believe, you are righteous, because you attribute to God the glory of being almighty, merciful, truthful, etc. You justify and praise God. In short, you attribute divinity and everything to Him. And the sin that still remains in you is not imputed but is forgiven for the sake of Christ, in whom you believe and who is perfectly righteous in a formal sense. His righteousness is yours; your sin is His.”
As I have said, therefore, any Christian is a supreme pontiff, because, first, he offers and slaughters his reason and the mind of the flesh, and, secondly, he attributes to God the glory of being righteous, truthful, patient, kind, and merciful. This is the continuous evening and morning sacrifice in the New Testament. The evening sacrifice is to kill the reason, and the morning sacrifice is to glorify God. Thus a Christian is involved, daily and perpetually, in this double sacrifice and in its practice. No one can adequately proclaim the value and the dignity of Christian sacrifice.
Therefore this is a marvelous definition of Christian righteousness: it is a divine imputation or reckoning as righteousness or to righteousness, for the sake of our faith in Christ or for the sake of Christ. When the sophists hear this definition, they laugh; for they suppose that righteousness is a certain quality that is first infused into the soul and then distributed through all the members. They cannot strip off the thoughts of reason, which declares that righteousness is aright judgment and a right will. Therefore this inestimable gift excels all reason, that without any works God reckons and acknowledges as righteous the man who takes hold by faith of His Son, who was sent into the world, who was born, who suffered, and who was crucified for us.
So far as the words are concerned, this fact is easy, namely, that righteousness is not in us in a formal sense, as Aristotle maintains, but is outside us, solely in the grace of God and in His imputation, In us there is nothing of the form or of the righteousness except that weak faith or the first fruits of faith by which we have begun to take hold of Christ. Meanwhile sin truly remains within us. But the fact itself is not easy or trivial; it is serious and important, because the Christ who is given to us has not done something meager for us and has not been playing. But, as Paul said earlier (Gal. 2:20), He “loved us and gave Himself for us”; and (Gal. 3:13) “He became a curse for us.” It is not an idle speculation that Christ was given for my sins and was made accursed for me in order that I might be rescued from eternal death. To take hold of the Son and to believe
in Him with the heart as the gift of God causes God to reckon that faith, however imperfect it may be, as perfect righteousness. Here we are in an altogether different world—a world that is outside reason. Here the issue is not what we ought to do or by what sort of works we may merit grace and the forgiveness of sins. No, here we are in a divine theology, where we hear the Gospel that Christ died for us and that when we believe this we are reckoned as righteous, even though sins, and great ones at that, still remain in us.
This is also how Christ defines the righteousness of faith in the Gospel of John. He says (John 16:27): “The Father Himself loves you. Why does He love you? Not because you were Pharisees, irreproachable in the righteousness of the Law, circumcised, doing good works, fasting, etc. But it is because ‘I chose you out of the world’ (John 15:19). And you have not done anything except that ‘you have loved Me and have believed that I came from the Father.’ This object, this ‘I’ sent from the Father into the world, this pleased you. And because you have taken hold of this object, the Father loves you, and you please Him.” Nevertheless, in another passage He calls them evil and tells them to ask for the forgiveness of sins. These two things are diametrically opposed: that a Christian is righteous and beloved by God, and yet that he is a sinner at the same time. For God cannot deny His own nature. That is, He cannot avoid hating sin and sinners; and He does so by necessity, for otherwise He would be unjust and would love sin. Then how can these two contradictory things both be true at the same time, that I am a sinner and deserve divine wrath and hate, and that the Father loves me? Here nothing can intervene except Christ the Mediator. “The Father,” He says, “loves you, not because you are deserving of love, but because you have loved Me and have believed that I came from the Father” (John 16:27).
Thus a Christian remains in pure humility. He really and truly feels that there is sin in him and that on this account he is worthy of wrath, the judgment of God, and eternal death. Thus he is humbled in this life. Yet at the same time he remains in a pure and holy pride, by which he turns to Christ. Through Him he strengthens himself against this feeling of divine wrath and judgment; and he believes that he is loved by the Father, not for his own sake but for the sake of Christ, the Beloved.
From this it is clear how faith justifies without works and how the imputation of righteousness is necessary nevertheless. Sins remain in us, and God hates them very much. Because of them it is necessary for us to have the imputation of righteousness, which comes to us on account of Christ, who is given to us and grasped by our faith. Meanwhile, as long as we are alive, we are supported and nourished at the bosom of divine mercy and forbearance, until the body of sin (Rom. 6:6) is abolished and we are raised up as new beings on that Day. Then there will be new heavens and a new earth (Rev. 21:1), in which righteousness will dwell. Under the present heaven meanwhile sin and wicked men dwell, and the godly have sin. Therefore Paul complains in Rom. 7:23 about the sin that still remains in the saints, and yet he says later on (Rom. 8:1) that “there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” Who will reconcile those utterly conflicting statements, that the sin in us is not sin, that he who is damnable will not be damned, that he who is rejected will not be rejected, that he who is worthy of wrath and eternal death will not receive these punishments? Only the Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ (1 Tim. 2:5). As Paul says, “there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”1

1 Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 26: Lectures on Galatians, 1535, Chapters 1-4. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 26, pp. 232–236). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House

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In Christ Alone!!!

I don’t see Luther addressing John 15. His quote from John 15:19 does not address verses 1-10 at all. In order to make his theories correct he resorts to jumping around from scripture to scripture ignoring the context only taking tiny pieces and piecing them together in order to support his beliefs. John 15:1-10 doesn’t require any skipping from one chapter to another to determine what is being said. It’s all right there in plain writing for anyone to see.
 
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