Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

LastSeven said:

Why? If you know that the righteous are raised on the last day, isn't that enough to prove my point? We already know the "rest of the dead" (aka "the lost") are raised at the end of the thousand years.

So that should make it pretty obvious then, don't you think? The last day is at the end of the thousand years. Get it? We're raised on the last day, and the wicked are raised at the end of the thousand years. IT'S THE SAME DAY!!

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The last day is not at the end of the thousand years though, not even per your view. The end of the thousand years leads to the beginning of satan's little season.

Jason0047 said:

I believe both of these pieces of Scripture is talking about the return from the wedding and that the marriage of the lamb is come now to the world with the marriage supper

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Unfortunately what you believe and what will happen according to Bible prophecy, are different things.
We are actually not told much detail about the Marriage and the feast. We don't know where or exactly when. But from the sequence of Revelation 19, it is plain that it will be just prior to the return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.

Regarding the theory of a 'rapture to heaven', as the OP says: there IS no proof, no scripture that says that God plans to take His people to heaven.
So to all those who promote a rapture to heaven, pre, mid or post, for you to say there will be a rapture, without providing scriptural support, makes you a false teacher and you can expect to be Judged severely for it. James 3:1

Why doesn't everyone get the simplest of what it means to be a Christian?

All must die for the Lord!

There is no escape from that and please don't give me the twinkling of an eye one liner, everyone has to face the music and that is biological death.

Those who have part in the 1st resurrection are all departed souls from this temporal world, for it is written.....

I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. (Rev 20:4)

Please notice that these who have part in the first resurrection have already biologically died.

The Times said:

All must die for the Lord!

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Yes, most will join the millions of martyrs already murdered.
But Paul does say: we shall not all die, those alive at the GWT Judgement, at the end of the Millennium and whose names are Written in the Book of Life, will be changed directly into immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:51

Original Happy Camper said:

And what would that be?

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Those indwelled by the Holy Spirit are not just a body.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


Does the Spirit of God live inside you?
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keras said:

Unfortunately what you believe and what will happen according to Bible prophecy, are different things.
We are actually not told much detail about the Marriage and the feast. We don't know where or exactly when. But from the sequence of Revelation 19, it is plain that it will be just prior to the return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.

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We actually are given the explanation about the marriage feast right in Revelation 19. It is a battle. The phrase eat the flesh of kings and eat the flesh of captains is taken from Ezekiel 39:17-22. It is a metaphorical phrase that is talking about gaining victory in battle.

17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward."
(Ezekiel 39:17-22).

Fowls = Believers.

• Luke 17:34-37
"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."

And they answered and said unto him,

"Where, Lord?"

And he said unto them,

"Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."


• Matthew 24:28
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


• Revelation 19:17-18 and Revelation 19:14
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying

"To all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


• Jude 1:14
Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,


In other words, at the Second Coming of Christ, the elect (or the fowls or the eagles) will be gathered to battle those who remain on the Earth or gather to support Christ defeating others at the supper of the Great God to eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of captains. This of course is speaking metaphorically. The saints are not going to really eat people, but they are going to defeat the wicked people of this world in the final battle with Christ.

For believers are referred to as Eagles in Isaiah,

"But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint." (Isaiah 40:31)

Also, Job speaks of Eagles and in Job 39:27-30, we see that it loosely mirrors or paralles both Ezekiel 39:18 and Revelation 19:18.

You said:

Regarding the theory of a 'rapture to heaven', as the OP says: there IS no proof, no scripture that says that God plans to take His people to heaven.
So to all those who promote a rapture to heaven, pre, mid or post, for you to say there will be a rapture, without providing scriptural support, makes you a false teacher and you can expect to be Judged severely for it. James 3:1

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Usually when folks start getting into name calling, (like: "Your a false teacher" etc.), and they are not always dealing with the actual verses being put forth, this means they honestly do not have a solid argument with Scripture to defend their beliefs. So attacking the individual is the next logical step for them because they are frustrated that they cannot stand upon God's Word alone as their primary defense. So please stop it with the name calling and personal attacks or judgments.

I personally seek to attack the false belief and not the person.
I strive to let God judge the person. Why?

"Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." (Jude 1:9).

You say there is no Rapture to Heaven mentioned in the Bible.

But the Bible disagrees with you.

• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

#1. The dead in Christ are being raised.
#2. Those who are alive in Christ are being taken up.
#3. To all meet the Lord in the air.
#4. So that we as believers will forever be with the Lord.

You don't believe we as believers will be taken up to meet the Lord in the air, whereby we will forever be with the Lord. Obviously the Lord is in Heaven. Why would He be taking us all up if not to Heaven? It says we will forever be with the Lord!!!

Where is the Lord our God?


Clues Concerning the Rapture:

• John 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

• Isaiah 26:20 NLT

Go home, my people, and lock your doors! Hide yourselves for a little while until the LORD’s anger has passed.

The Times said:

Why doesn't everyone get the simplest of what it means to be a Christian?

All must die for the Lord!

There is no escape from that and please don't give me the twinkling of an eye one liner, everyone has to face the music and that is biological death.

Those who have part in the 1st resurrection are all departed souls from this temporal world, for it is written.....

I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. (Rev 20:4)

Please notice that these who have part in the first resurrection have already biologically died.

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Revelation 20:4 is talking about believers who are left behind because they did not:

(a) Believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture
(b) Live a holy life for the Lord.

Also, after the Rapture happens, new converts will also take place, as well. Unbelievers who have heard about the Pre-Trib Rapture and who thought it was a joke will repent of their sins and accept Jesus after they see the Rapture happens. Unfortunately, they will go through part of the Tribulation.

While it is true that all who live Godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution, it does not mean we all must have to face the Tribulation.

We must also believe God is a rewarder to those who seek Him, too.


The Pre-Trib Rapture is a reward for following the Lord.

Jason0047 said:

Revelation 20:4 is talking about believers who are left behind because they did not:

(a) Believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture
(b) Did not live a holy life for the Lord.

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You have just turned the Pre-Trib doctrine into a cult by claiming that those who do not believe the doctrine will be punished.


Former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson reveals the recent history of the doctrine being promoted above.


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The Book of Revelation: Revealed by Christ ( Revelation 6:1)
(It is a difficult book.)


1. Is the book in perfect chronological order, or it a series of overlapping visions that tell the story from different perspectives?


2. It is a book of symbols-----> Lamb vs. Dragon (Written in apocalyptic language.)

Example:

In Revelation 1:20 Christ reveals the candlesticks (lampstands) are a symbol of the churches.

In Romans 11 Paul used the Olive Tree as a symbol of the Church made up of faithful Israelite branches and Gentile branches grafted together into the same tree.


In Revelation 11:4 are the two witnesses men made of wood and metal or are they a symbol of the churches?


3. The Capital “C” Church as we use the word today is not found in the Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found in the book.


Are those “under the blood of the Lamb” in Revelation 12:11 members of the Church?

If the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20, can it end before the Second Coming?


4. Are the Greek words for “tribulation” and “wrath” the same Greek word, or are they different? If they are different, can all of the tribulation period be the wrath of God?

Based on Revelation 12:12, is at least part of the tribulation period the wrath of Satan?


5. Is the tribulation period 7 years long as we often hear today, or is it 42 months (3 ½ years), or is the time period symbolic?


6. Is the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15 the “last” trumpet described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:52? Did the same Holy Spirit play a role in the writing of both verses? Is Revelation 10:7 related? What is the “mystery” in Ephesians 5:32? Is it the same “mystery” in Rev. 10:7?


7. Based on 2 Timothy 4:1, does Christ judge both the living and the dead at His return?


8. Based on Matthew 25:31-46, how many mortals are left on the planet after the judgment of the sheep and goats? When does this judgment begin based on the text?


9. When is “the time of the judgment of the dead”? Is it in Revelation 11:18, or is it in Revelation 20, or are there two different judgments, or are they the same judgment described in different language? (See John 5:27-30 for the bodily resurrection and judgment.)


10. In both Matthew 24:29-31, and Revelation 6:12-17, we have the sun darkening, and the moon changing its brightness, and the stars falling from heaven to the earth. We also have those who seem to be in fear of Christ. Are they both speaking of the Second Coming of Christ? We have some of the same characters in Revelation 6, and in Revelation 19. Why would those at the end of Revelation 6 be hiding from “the wrath of the Lamb”, if the Lamb is not present at this point in time? Is the Second Coming described in several passages in Revelation?


11. Is the beginning of chapter 12 a review of Church history describing the fall of Satan and the death and birth of Christ, or is it a future event? Are Satan and the angels who rebelled with him now still in heaven with God, and Christ, and our dead Brothers and Sisters, or was Satan cast down to the earth long ago? (2 Peter 2:4) What does the man-child do with the rod of Iron in Psalm 2? Does He correct the flawed pottery, or does He destroy it? Did Joseph take the man-child and His mother and “flee” to Egypt in Matthew 2:13-15?


12. Is the “harvest” of chapter 14, similar to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13?


13. Does Christ return at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19?


14. John saw “souls” at the beginning of Revelation chapter 20. Where are “souls” found?

What is the first resurrection found in John chapter 5? John 5:24 ?

What is the second resurrection found in John chapter 5? John 5:27-20 ?

Based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, does Christ return “in flaming fire”?

When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?


15. What was Peter looking for in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

Is 2 Peter 3:10 connected to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2, and Revelation 16:15-16, through the phrases “day of the Lord” when He “comes as a thief”? Are these the Second Coming?


16. Based on 1 Peter 2:4-10, did the construction of the 3rd temple begin during the first century? Does God want a future man-made temple with renewed animal sacrifices. (Heb. 10:16-18)


17. Based on Matthew 24:36, who can predict the day on which Christ returns?


18. Many Christians interpret the whole New Testament through their understanding of Revelation chapter 20. Revelation 20 is probably the most difficult chapter in the Book of Revelation. In the YouTube video below Pastor Steve Gregg takes a look at the chapter. Is the 1,000 years literal, occurring after the Second Coming, or is it symbolic of the Church Age?


Premill ?, Amill?, or Postmill?


https://www.youtube.

.

BABerean2 said:

You have just turned the Pre-Trib doctrine into a cult by claiming that those who do not believe the doctrine will be punished.


Former Dispensationalist Jerry Johnson reveals the recent history of the doctrine being promoted above.

...................................................

The Book of Revelation: Revealed by Christ ( Revelation 6:1)
(It is a difficult book.)


1. Is the book in perfect chronological order, or it a series of overlapping visions that tell the story from different perspectives?


2. It is a book of symbols-----> Lamb vs. Dragon (Written in apocalyptic language.)

Example:

In Revelation 1:20 Christ reveals the candlesticks (lampstands) are a symbol of the churches.

In Romans 11 Paul used the Olive Tree as a symbol of the Church made up of faithful Israelite branches and Gentile branches grafted together into the same tree.


In Revelation 11:4 are the two witnesses men made of wood and metal or are they a symbol of the churches?


3. The Capital “C” Church as we use the word today is not found in the Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found in the book.


Are those “under the blood of the Lamb” in Revelation 12:11 members of the Church?

If the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20, can it end before the Second Coming?


4. Are the Greek words for “tribulation” and “wrath” the same Greek word, or are they different? If they are different, can all of the tribulation period be the wrath of God?

Based on Revelation 12:12, is at least part of the tribulation period the wrath of Satan?


5. Is the tribulation period 7 years long as we often hear today, or is it 42 months (3 ½ years), or is the time period symbolic?


6. Is the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15 the “last” trumpet described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:52? Did the same Holy Spirit play a role in the writing of both verses? Is Revelation 10:7 related? What is the “mystery” in Ephesians 5:32? Is it the same “mystery” in Rev. 10:7?


7. Based on 2 Timothy 4:1, does Christ judge both the living and the dead at His return?


8. Based on Matthew 25:31-46, how many mortals are left on the planet after the judgment of the sheep and goats? When does this judgment begin based on the text?


9. When is “the time of the judgment of the dead”? Is it in Revelation 11:18, or is it in Revelation 20, or are there two different judgments, or are they the same judgment described in different language? (See John 5:27-30 for the bodily resurrection and judgment.)


10. In both Matthew 24:29-31, and Revelation 6:12-17, we have the sun darkening, and the moon changing its brightness, and the stars falling from heaven to the earth. We also have those who seem to be in fear of Christ. Are they both speaking of the Second Coming of Christ? We have some of the same characters in Revelation 6, and in Revelation 19. Why would those at the end of Revelation 6 be hiding from “the wrath of the Lamb”, if the Lamb is not present at this point in time? Is the Second Coming described in several passages in Revelation?


11. Is the beginning of chapter 12 a review of Church history describing the fall of Satan and the death and birth of Christ, or is it a future event? Are Satan and the angels who rebelled with him now still in heaven with God, and Christ, and our dead Brothers and Sisters, or was Satan cast down to the earth long ago? (2 Peter 2:4) What does the man-child do with the rod of Iron in Psalm 2? Does He correct the flawed pottery, or does He destroy it? Did Joseph take the man-child and His mother and “flee” to Egypt in Matthew 2:13-15?


12. Is the “harvest” of chapter 14, similar to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13?


13. Does Christ return at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19?


14. John saw “souls” at the beginning of Revelation chapter 20. Where are “souls” found?

What is the first resurrection found in John chapter 5? John 5:24 ?

What is the second resurrection found in John chapter 5? John 5:27-20 ?

Based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, does Christ return “in flaming fire”?

When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?


15. What was Peter looking for in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

Is 2 Peter 3:10 connected to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2, and Revelation 16:15-16, through the phrases “day of the Lord” when He “comes as a thief”? Are these the Second Coming?


16. Based on 1 Peter 2:4-10, did the construction of the 3rd temple begin during the first century? Does God want a future man-made temple with renewed animal sacrifices. (Heb. 10:16-18)


17. Based on Matthew 24:36, who can predict the day on which Christ returns?


18. Many Christians interpret the whole New Testament through their understanding of Revelation chapter 20. Revelation 20 is probably the most difficult chapter in the Book of Revelation. In the YouTube video below Pastor Steve Gregg takes a look at the chapter. Is the 1,000 years literal, occurring after the Second Coming, or is it symbolic of the Church Age?


Premill ?, Amill?, or Postmill?


https://www.youtube.

.

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Okay. Let's start with the basics.

• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I get this:


Do you believe 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18?

What do you think it says?

Also, you do not seem to think the Pre-Trib Rapture is a form of correction (punishment) for certain believers.


What do you think this above verse is saying?

Choose Wisely said:

I agree with you that there are two raptures. The first rapture is the Gentile Church, pretrib, when no one will know when the master comes. In an hour which you think not, the son of man comes. It will be like the days of Noah when Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood and the ark doors are closed.


The other rapture is prewrath when those not in darkness will know when He is coming. That day will not take them unaware. They are told to look up their redemption draws nigh. It will be like the days of Lot....the very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction will come. It will be the regrafted 12 tribes being raptured as proved by the 144,000 first fruits which are of the 12 tribes.

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I agree that the second Rapture most likely takes place before the second half of the Tribulation takes place (i.e. God's Wrath). For believers are not appointed unto wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9 cf. Revelation 15:1).

DavidPT said:

The last day is not at the end of the thousand years though, not even per your view. The end of the thousand years leads to the beginning of satan's little season.

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Oh, so you are changing the meaning of the word "last". As I suspected. That's the only way for you to stick to your claims. Change the English language.

redleghunter said:

We have a material outer man and an immaterial inner man. See 1 Corinthians 4.

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So you think were made up of two parts. So then when God says you are dust that means both parts are made of dust. And when God says to dust you will return that means both parts return to dust. If it's not so then you need to rethink what you are because God is not wrong.

LastSeven said:

Oh, so you are changing the meaning of the word "last". As I suspected. That's the only way for you to stick to your claims. Change the English language.

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After the Second Coming of Jesus Christ:

The Earth is Purified by Fire & Satan is Bound:


The Millennium:
(The 1,000 Year Reign of Christ)
(The 1st New Heavens and New Earth)

Jason0047 said:

Do you believe 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18?

What do you think it says?

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Why did you stop at verse 18?

There were no verses or chapters in the letter when Paul wrote it.

The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5.
The word "But" connects the two chapters.
The event occurs on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief".
This language connect the event at the end of chapter 4, to 2 Peter 3:10, and Revelation 16:15-15, which are Second Coming passages.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that the two chapters are referring to the same event.

There is no trip back to heaven in the passage.
It must be imported from another passage to make your doctrine work.

For about 1800 years of Church history it was understood that the Church would be gathered at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.

.

LastSeven said:

So you think were made up of two parts. So then when God says you are dust that means both parts are made of dust. And when God says to dust you will return that means both parts return to dust. If it's not so then you need to rethink what you are because God is not wrong.

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My apologies that would 2 Corinthians 4:

2 Corinthians 4: NASB
16Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 17For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The outer man decays and turns to dust. The inner man is what is rejoined to our glorified bodies at the Resurrection. However, the assurance we are given is that when we are absent from these mortal decaying bodies we are present with the Lord.

Continuing with 2 Corinthians, we see Paul pine for his heavenly tent (resurrected body) and not be 'unhoused' and that in dying wanting to be in that immediate state of the resurrected body:

2 Corinthians 5: NASB
1For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

This of course is the Hope for all those who are in Christ...The promise of the Resurrection and to be like Christ. However, he now gives reassurance that no matter our state we will be present with the Lord when these corporeal corruptible bodies fail (die):

6Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.

This is affirmed once again in Philippians chapter 1:

Philippians 1: NASB
21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy in the faith, 26so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.

Once again being in the presence with Christ is contrasted with remaining in our mortal corruptible bodies.

Where is Paul getting this outer vs inner man concept from? Is it some Greek philosophy influence? Absolutely not, it is actually a Hebrew concept as we see explained in Vine's Expository Dictionary:

Soul, the Hebrews and the Inner man

A. Noun. nepesh (5315), “soul; self; life; person; heart.” This is a very common term in both ancient and modern Semitic languages. It occurs over 780 times in the Old Testament and is evenly distributed in all periods of the text with a particularly high frequency in poetic passages. The basic meaning is apparently related to the rare verbal form, napash. The noun refers to the essence of life, the act of breathing, taking breath. However, from that concrete concept, a number of more abstract meanings were developed. In its primary sense the noun appears in its first occurrence in Gen. 1:20: “the moving creature that hath life,” and in its second occurrence in Gen. 2:7: “living soul.” However, in over 400 later occurrences it is translated “soul.”

While this serves to make sense in most passages, it is an unfortunate mistranslation of the term. The real difficulty of the term is seen in the inability of almost all English translations to find a consistent equivalent or even a small group of high-frequency equivalents for the term. The KJV alone uses over 28 different English terms for this one Hebrew word. The problem with the English term “soul” is that no actual equivalent of the term or the idea behind it is represented in the Hebrew language. The Hebrew system of thought does not include the combination or opposition of the terms “body” and “soul,” which are really Greek and Latin in origin. The Hebrew contrasts two other concepts which are not found in the Greek and Latin tradition: “the inner self” and “the outer appearance” or, as viewed in a different context, “what one is to oneself” as opposed to “what one appears to be to one’s observers.” The inner person is nepesh, while the outer person, or reputation, is shem, most commonly translated “name.” In narrative or historical passages of the Old Testament, nepesh can be translated as “life” or “self,” as in Lev. 17:11: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for [yourselves].…” Needless to say, the reading “soul” is meaningless in such a text. (Vines Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, location 12557 digital copy, W.E Vine, Merrill F. Unger, William White Jr.) (Also found at: Google Books)

Vines nicely shows that even in Hebrew thought there two ontologically distinct entities, yet even as Paul uses the inner and outer man terms are in vital union. Why? Because the 'end state' and Hope is always the resurrection and putting on the incorruptible 'house from Heaven' (2 Corinthians 4).

2 Corinthians 4 is not the only NT references from the Apostle Paul in which he makes this inner and outer man distinctions:

For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. (Ephesians 3:14-19)

I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:21-25)

LastSeven said:

So you think were made up of two parts. So then when God says you are dust that means both parts are made of dust. And when God says to dust you will return that means both parts return to dust. If it's not so then you need to rethink what you are because God is not wrong.

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If our born again immaterial inner man which is being renewed day by day, as Paul contrasted to the outer decaying man, truly turns to dust and is annihilated then our New Birth as a New Creation in Christ and seal of the Holy Spirit turns to dust as well. This is the belief of the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower and has absolutely no support in Christianity.

The New Testament revelation and teaching is that once our mortal bodies fail and assume room temperature (die) those in Christ are present with the Lord.

LastSeven said:

Oh, so you are changing the meaning of the word "last". As I suspected. That's the only way for you to stick to your claims. Change the English language.

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I'm not disputing that there is the last day of this age. But even per your view, unless the part about satan's little season is not in your Bible, the last day of this age would be at the end of satan's little season and not at the end of the thousand years like you suggested in another post.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

In 3 different places we are clearly told the thousand years has an ending point. What does the end of it lead to? The 2nd coming? No. It leads to satan's little season.

In another post I provided all the passages speaking about the last day and a resurrection. Since context matters, in not one single one of those passages are the eternally lost even in view. Yet we know they too will rise. On the last day of this age when the eternally saved rise though? Not if the first resurrection in Revelation 20 is meaning the bodily resurrection when Christ returns. That makes the 2nd resurrection having to take place some thousand years later. And if there is a thousand years after the 2nd coming, obviously that would involve more days post the last day of this age. Just because there is a last day of this age that doesn't mean there can't be more days that follow it in the next age.

LastSeven said:

Oh, so you are changing the meaning of the word "last". As I suspected. That's the only way for you to stick to your claims. Change the English language.

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BTW, I started a thread specifically dealing with the first resurrection in Revelation 20. Unfortunately though, thusfar that thread is not drawing much discussion. If Scripture has convinced me that the first resurrection in Revelation 20 is a bodily one, and that it occurs on the last day of this age involving only the eternally saved, I just ignore that when the rest of the dead live again, the part about it being a thousand years and then some later, and instead wrongly conclude both resurrections happen in the same 24 hour period of time? Until someone manages to convince me that the first resurrection in Revelation 20 is not bodily, in the meantime I have no choice but to conclude what I do.

Jason0047 said:

After the Second Coming of Jesus Christ:

The Earth is Purified by Fire & Satan is Bound:

The Earth is A Dark & Desolate Wasteland:

• Jeremiah 4:23 ERV, Jeremiah 4:24 AMP, Jeremiah 4:25 ERV,
.. Jeremiah 4:26a ISV, Jeremiah 4:26b WEB, Jeremiah 4:27 GWT

I looked at the earth. It was empty; there was nothing on it. I looked at the sky, and its light was gone. I looked at the mountains, and... they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly to and fro. I looked, but there were no people. All the birds of the sky had flown away. I looked, and the fruitful land had become a desert. All its cities were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. This is what the LORD says: The whole earth will be ruined, although I will not destroy it completely.

The Earth is Purified by Fire
(Conclusion of the Day of the Lord):
(All Things Upon the Earth Are Destroyed By Fire):
(And the Polluted Atmosphere Passes Away With a Great Noise):

• 2 Peter 3:10-12

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. ...all these things shall be dissolved, .... wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat."


Satan is Bound in the Bottomless Pit:

• Revelation 20:1-3

"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: ..."​

The Millennium:
(The 1,000 Year Reign of Christ)
(The 1st New Heavens and New Earth)

The Earth is Re-Created or Re-Formed Out of This Current Earth:

• Isaiah 65:17

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."


The First Phase of the Resurrection of the Saints:

• John 5:29 GNV

"And they shall come forth, that have done good, unto the resurrection of life:"

• Acts 24:15 DRA

"Having hope in God, ... that there shall be a resurrection of the just..."

• Daniel 12:2

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, ... to everlasting life,"

• Revelation 20:6 a

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, ..."

• Isaiah 65:18 KJ2

"But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy."

Abraham, Select Patriachs, and the Martyred Tribulation Saints will Live and Reign with Christ for 1,000 Years:

• Revelation 20:4

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

• Revelation 20:6 b

"...they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

A Description of What the Millennium Will Be Like:

• Isaiah 65:19-21 NLT, Isaiah 65:22 NET, Isaiah 65:23 EXB, Isaiah 65:24, Isaiah 65:25 ESV

"I will rejoice over Jerusalem and delight in my people. And the sound of weeping and crying will be heard in it no more.

No longer will babies die when only a few days old. No longer will adults die before they have lived a full life. No longer will people be considered old at one hundred! Only the cursed will die that young!

In those days people will live in the houses they build and eat the fruit of their own vineyards.

No longer will they build a house only to have another live in it, or plant a vineyard only to have another eat its fruit, for my people will live as long as trees, and my chosen ones will enjoy to the fullest what they have produced.

They will never again work for nothing [ not labor in vain ]. They will never again give birth to children who die young. All my people will be blessed by the Lord; they and their children will be blessed.

And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,” says the LORD."


Satan is Loosed Out of the Bottomless Pit and He Deceives the Nations:

• Revelation 20:7-8

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth,"

• Revelation 20:3 b

"...till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."


The Final or Last Battle:

• Revelation 20:8-9

"Gog, and Magog, ... gather ... together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."​

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So many words. What point are you trying to make? Are you trying to justify changing the meaning of the word "last"?

redleghunter said:

My apologies that would 2 Corinthians 4:

2 Corinthians 4: NASB
16Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day. 17For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, 18while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

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Have you ever heard it said "she's a beautiful person, inside and out"? That's what this is referring to. The kind of person you are outwardly, and the kind of person you are inwardly. Even as your body gets older, the person you are on the inside gets renewed every day.

It in no way confirms the existence of an immortal conscious spiritual entity living inside of our bodies.