Help with John 12:32

[Carl Emerson]

Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.

Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.

This is done through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Your thoughts appreciated.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.

Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.

Your thoughts appreciated.

In its context, Jesus speaks these words shortly after some Greeks sought an audience with him. This event seems to prompt Jesus to reflect on the broader scope of his mission, extending beyond the Jewish people to include the Gentiles.

The phrase "lifted up from the earth" is widely understood to be a prophetic reference to his crucifixion. Just as Moses lifted up the bronze serpent in the wilderness so that those who looked at it would be healed (John 3:14, referencing Numbers 21:4-9), so too Jesus' being lifted up on the cross would bring salvation.

The core of the verse lies in the promise: "will draw all people to myself." This signifies the magnetic power of Jesus' death and resurrection to attract humanity to him. It speaks of a universal invitation and the potential for all people, regardless of their background, to be drawn into a relationship with God through Christ.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The core of the verse lies in the promise: "will draw all people to myself." This signifies the magnetic power of Jesus' death and resurrection to attract humanity to him. It speaks of a universal invitation and the potential for all people, regardless of their background, to be drawn into a relationship with God through Christ.

...and universalists insist that this verse indicates He will draw all into eternal fellowship with Him, and promises to do so.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

...and universalists insist that this verse indicates He will draw all into eternal fellowship with Him, and promises to do so.

Oh I got a new label, Universalist... you know, many will be drawn but few will follow, not so universal after all.

 

[d taylor]

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From this written article : A Is for “Able to Believe”
God is drawing everyone to faith in Christ. Calvinists talk about irresistible grace while Arminians/Wesleyans talk about prevenient grace. Instead, I think we should use the Biblical language of drawing. Everyone has the natural ability to believe in God and to seek Him out, but before you do, He is already drawing you to Christ (John 6:44; 12:32). That does not mean He’s dragging you against your will. This drawing is not an irresistible process. It is more like a wooing, something the unbeliever can resist or respond to. God draws people through creation, which proclaims His power to everyone (Rom 1:19-20). The light of God enlightens everyone (John 1:9). Jesus removed the sin of the world (John 1:29). He sends preachers out into the world with the saving message, so people can believe and be saved (Rom 10:14). Everyone is being drawn in many different ways, but not everyone responds to that drawing positively.

Or this one Is God an Equal Opportunity Saver? – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[Carl Emerson]

This drawing is not an irresistible process.

Where do you then see His prerogative to choose fitting in ?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Oh I got a new label, Universalist... you know, many will be drawn but few will follow, not so universal after all.

They would say that this refers to responding in this life - i.e. some are chosen.

They also claim that in the next life all will be reconciled and enjoy eternal fellowship with Him.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

They would say that this refers to responding in this life - i.e. some are chosen.

They also claim that in the next life all will be reconciled and enjoy eternal fellowship with Him.

All will be reconciled, Not so! Jesus was very clear thus the parable of the sower. I never doubted any words of Christ, how could I possibly. If only people listened to Him instead of false doctrine ;

Matthew 13 (NKJV);
13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]
16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Blessings Carl.

 

[d taylor]

Where do you then see His prerogative to choose fitting in ?

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I am not a Calvinist so i do not see God choosing people to believe and not choosing people who will remain unbelievers.

 

[Carl Emerson]

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I am not a Calvinist so i do not see God choosing people to believe and not choosing people who will remain unbelievers.

Understand - and I don't intend the thread to divert to that topic.

However, briefly how do you understand Matt 22:14 ...many are called, but few are chosen

 

[d taylor]

Understand - and I don't intend the thread to divert to that topic.

However, briefly how do you understand Matt 22:14 ...many are called, but few are chosen

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The call is to righteous obedient believers to the feast to celebrate, not to receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life. Where unfaithful believers will not be called and will miss out.

A Call to the Wedding Celebration: An Exposition of Matthew 22:1-14 – Grace Evangelical Society
Part of the links Journal Article below

Jesus concludes His parable with these words: “For many are called, but few (are) chosen” (v 14). This sentence occurs only here in the critical text, but also in Matt 20:16, according to the Majority text.75 It functions as the explanation by the king for his actions.76

The conclusion begins with the plain statement that “many are called.” This summarizes the fact that the king invited many people to the wedding celebration for his son.77 Invitations were extended in v 3-4, and 9-10.

Despite this fact, only a “few are chosen.” The idea here is simply that only those who are appropriately clothed in a wedding garment are chosen to partake of the wedding banquet. The traditional view holds that “chosen” (eklektoi) pertains to the doctrine of election.78 The chosen ones are true believers who accepted the call of God and demonstrated their faith and worthiness to take part in the banquet by the performance of good works. Thus the banquet is synonymous with the kingdom. The man without the garment is representative of either a “false believer” (= an unbeliever), since he did not manifest his salvation in works of righteousness,79 or a believer who loses his salvation because of disobedience.80 Either way, he is not chosen and is cast into hell.

But it is not necessary to see eklektos as having soteriological significance here. It is more suitable to the immediate context to see that it simply means that the ones properly clothed are chosen to be at the banquet. As has been demonstrated, the wedding garment is representative of the good works done by the believer. Since faith, not works, is the only requirement for eternal life in the kingdom, entrance and life in the kingdom are not the issues here. It has also been shown that the wedding banquet is not representative of the kingdom, but rather is an occurrence within the kingdom. The experience symbolized by the wedding celebration is reserved for the obedient believer.

 

[Carl Emerson]

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The call is to righteous obedient believers to the feast to celebrate, not to receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life. Where unfaithful believers will not be called and will miss out.

A Call to the Wedding Celebration: An Exposition of Matthew 22:1-14 – Grace Evangelical Society
Part of the links Journal Article below

Jesus concludes His parable with these words: “For many are called, but few (are) chosen” (v 14). This sentence occurs only here in the critical text, but also in Matt 20:16, according to the Majority text.75 It functions as the explanation by the king for his actions.76

The conclusion begins with the plain statement that “many are called.” This summarizes the fact that the king invited many people to the wedding celebration for his son.77 Invitations were extended in v 3-4, and 9-10.

Despite this fact, only a “few are chosen.” The idea here is simply that only those who are appropriately clothed in a wedding garment are chosen to partake of the wedding banquet. The traditional view holds that “chosen” (eklektoi) pertains to the doctrine of election.78 The chosen ones are true believers who accepted the call of God and demonstrated their faith and worthiness to take part in the banquet by the performance of good works. Thus the banquet is synonymous with the kingdom. The man without the garment is representative of either a “false believer” (= an unbeliever), since he did not manifest his salvation in works of righteousness,79 or a believer who loses his salvation because of disobedience.80 Either way, he is not chosen and is cast into hell.

But it is not necessary to see eklektos as having soteriological significance here. It is more suitable to the immediate context to see that it simply means that the ones properly clothed are chosen to be at the banquet. As has been demonstrated, the wedding garment is representative of the good works done by the believer. Since faith, not works, is the only requirement for eternal life in the kingdom, entrance and life in the kingdom are not the issues here. It has also been shown that the wedding banquet is not representative of the kingdom, but rather is an occurrence within the kingdom. The experience symbolized by the wedding celebration is reserved for the obedient believer.

And a comment on this one ???

Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[d taylor]

And a comment on this one ???

Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

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When seen in the Greek it reads. like it is being stated, the ones who believed were appointed to eternal life.

 

[Carl Emerson]

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When seen in the Greek it reads. like it is being stated, the ones who believed were appointed to eternal life.

View attachment 365251​

Maybe a Greek scholar could confirm if the grammar supports the reading that they were appointed before they believed.

Like in the verse below.

Ephesians 1:4

he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.

Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.

This is done through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Your thoughts appreciated.

The key word here is " draw".
Jesus Christ of Nazareth draws someone by attracting their attention and interest in Him through His Word. He invites one to a connection that can never be severed as long as love and faith prevail. To draw someone is the first step . The second step is to secure the faithful for eternity.
Blessings

 

[d taylor]

Maybe a Greek scholar could confirm if the grammar supports the reading that they were appointed before they believed.

Like in the verse below.

Ephesians 1:4

he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

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The choosing in Ephesians 1;4 is that believers should be that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
1:5 That God has predetermined that all people who will believe in Jesus, will be adopted to God as sons

Well as a free grace believer, who believes God free gift of Eternal Life is available to any person who will believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

God does elect some people to accomplish His will of people coming to believe in Jesus. For example John the Baptist, Jesus choosing His apostles, the choosing of Abraham to be the father of the Hebrew people and eventually the nation of Israel.

But what i am firmly against is the teaching that God has only chosen a few to receive His Eternal Life. and all others God did not choose.

 

[Clare73]

Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.
ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.
My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.
Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.
This is done through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.
Your thoughts appreciated.

Does "all" mean

1) all without distinction (both Jew and Gentile), or
2) all without exception (all Jews and all Gentiles)?

I think it means the first one.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think it means the first one.

Using the premise that scripture interprets scripture, I think the answer is in Rev 5:9 and 7:9

 

[Radagast]

And a comment on this one ???

Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

καὶ (and) ἐπίστευσαν (they believed) ὅσοι (as many as) ἦσαν τεταγμένοι (had been appointed) εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον· (to eternal life)

The "had been appointed" is perfect passive in Greek. It implies (a) that the appointment was done by another and (b) that the appointment was a previous action with an ongoing effect. It very clearly means that they were appointed before they believed.

 

[fhansen]

Taking all of Scripture into account I believe it's hard to escape the understanding that it's both/and: those who choose Him and prevail in that choice are the ones He chooses- and the ones He chooses are those who choose Him and prevail in that choice. We can't-and don't need-to take it beyond that IMO.