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Help with John 12:32

FutureAndAHope

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For me it is not about "robotics' but rather that the love of Jesus is irrestible to the Elect. We are drawn by the Holy Spirit, it is an action of God, He chooses.

Jesus plainly said "you have not chosen me. I have chosen you."

John said that being born again was not because of the will of man.

But that is fine - a fine point of doctrine will not exclude you from heaven as long as you are not proud and attribute salvation to yourself.
Sure. Maybe for now, we just choose to disagree.

But as for:

Joh 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Jesus is just saying he ordained his followers, they did not ordain Him. It is not a statement about how salvation occurs. In the chapter before Jesus is clear about "who" receives the Spirit. The obedient. There is a distinct order: the command (and grace) comes, the person chooses to respond, then, and only then, the Father's love comes.

Joh 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Sure. Maybe for now, we just choose to disagree.

But as for:

Joh 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Jesus is just saying he ordained his followers, they did not ordain Him. It is not a statement about how salvation occurs. In the chapter before Jesus is clear about "who" receives the Spirit. The obedient. There is a distinct order: the command (and grace) comes, the person chooses to respond, then, and only then, the Father's love comes.

Joh 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

So you believe that John Newton who wrote Amazing Grace got it all wrong ?
 
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timewerx

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Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.

Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.

This is done through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Your thoughts appreciated.

The key word is "draw"


Lifted up from Earth ie, Jesus lifted from the ground on the cross will "draw" everyone to Him. It can also mean "attract" (attract everyone's attention). Everyone present in those times probably felt it like everyone's busy over their stuff and then a towering Godzilla takes a step which caused the ground to shake abruptly and suddenly, everyone's attention is turned towards the towering monster.

That's how I picture it. Sorry for the Godzilla analogy. Everyone would have felt it even if they're not on the mount as if an invisible force spread out through space hitting everyone at that very moment.

It doesn't include us obviously because simply we're not there roughly 2000 years ago.

I don't think that verse supports universalism. I don't think the whole scriptures have anything to support universalism. However, I'm actually rooting for universalism because I want to see my loved ones again.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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So you believe that John Newton who wrote Amazing Grace got it all wrong ?
I believe there is a part God plays (God extends His grace), and a part we play (we must receive it). This concept was believed for the first 400 years of church history. Do you think the Early Church got it wrong?
 
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Carl Emerson

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I believe there is a part God plays (God extends His grace), and a part we play (we must receive it). This concept was believed for the first 400 years of church history. Do you think the Early Church got it wrong?

That depends on what you consider is the early church - if you compare the first 5 chapters of Acts with what the church developed into, then yes they got a lot wrong.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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That depends on what you consider is the early church - if you compare the first 5 chapters of Acts with what the church developed into, then yes they got a lot wrong.
They were still seeing the Miracles of Acts, and being martyred for their faith. But preaching that man has free will. Predestination was not taught by any until 400 years after the church was born by Augustine. Who do you think really introduced heresy, tainting the nature of God? Here is the credential of the early church:

Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202]​


Mentions the glorious manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the church:

“Others [Christians] have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions and utter prophetic expressions. Still others heal the sick by laying their hands upon them and they are made whole. Yes, moreover, as I have said, even the dead have been raised, and remained among us for many years. What shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of gifts which the Church [scattered] throughout the whole world has received from God in the name of Jesus Christ...”​
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 32, Section 4​
Died for his faith:

The blessed peacemaker survived this great triumph, for a short time only, closing his life, like a true shepherd, with thousands of his flock, in the massacre (A.D. 202) stimulated by the wolfish Emperor Severus.​
All the time, preaching free will, not predestination.
1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)​

Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165]​


Who suffered the following fate:

Rusticus the prefect pronounced sentence, saying, “Let those who have refused to sacrifice to the gods and to yield to the command of the emperor be scourged,6 and led away to suffer the punishment of decapitation, according to the laws.” The holy martyrs having glorified God, and having gone forth to the accustomed place, were beheaded, and perfected their testimony in the confession of the Saviour. And some of the faithful having secretly removed their bodies, laid them in a suitable place, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ having wrought along with them, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.​

Stated:

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made (Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 43)​
 
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