Help with John 12:32

[Clare73]

If before the foundation of the world, God predestined a category that people could occupy as a result of trusting in Jesus

And by what power do the spiritually dead (Eph 2:1) spiritually trust in Jesus?

 

[timf]

And by what power do the spiritually dead (Eph 2:1) spiritually trust in Jesus?

Rom_10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Clare73]

And by what power do the spiritually dead (Eph 2:1) spiritually trust in Jesus?

Rom_10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The spiritually dead cannot spiritually hear (understand, believe) the spiritual word of the gospel that is being preached.

They must be born again by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) in order to do so.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.

Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.

This is done through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Your thoughts appreciated.

Grace is resistable. God's offer goes out to all people. The cross according to Hebrews is a righteous life, given for a lifetime of sins.

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

As man dies once, so Christ was offered once. But Jesus said:

Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

God's call goes out to all, we all have a life that is covered, (but depending upon how you interprate the word chosen) but few are "counted worthy" / chosen.

Luke 20:35 But those who are "counted worthy" to attain that age...

Salvation is not a one-off experience, it is continual persistence in doing good.

Rom 2:6-8 who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

A man/woman must be counted as worthy.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Grace is resistable. God's offer goes out to all people. The cross according to Hebrews is a righteous life, given for a lifetime of sins.

Heb 9:27-28 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

As man dies once, so Christ was offered once. But Jesus said:

Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

God's call goes out to all, we all have a life that is covered, (but depending upon how you interprate the word chosen) but few are "counted worthy" / chosen.

Luke 20:35 But those who are "counted worthy" to attain that age...

Salvation is not a one-off experience, it is continual persistence in doing good.

Rom 2:6-8 who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

A man/woman must be counted as worthy.

Just a note on the past post, the verses:

Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

The "few chosen", may not be referring to the number of people saved. But rather making a statement that the Jews are not the only chosen people. That idea fits better with the context of the message given before it. Many are called (Gentile) few chosen (Jew). Becasue both passages talk of numbers being added to the saved, extra workers Mathew 20, people from the way side Mathew 22 being added to the number, but the chosen ones cast out.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Just a note on the past post, the verses:

Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

The "few chosen", may not be referring to the number of people saved. But rather making a statement that the Jews are not the only chosen people. That idea fits better with the context of the message given before it. Many are called (Gentile) few chosen (Jew). Becasue both passages talk of numbers being added to the saved, extra workers Mathew 20, people from the way side Mathew 22 being added to the number, but the chosen ones cast out.

Do you think all Jews will be saved then ???

God's call goes out to all, we all have a life that is covered

What do you mean by 'covered' ??

Salvation is not a one-off experience, it is continual persistence in doing good.

So you believe salvation is by works ???

 

[honey badger]

Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.

Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.

This is done through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Your thoughts appreciated.

to be lifted up is to be cast down ...

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Do you think all Jews will be saved then ???

Not at all. I was just suggesting in the context of what Jesus was talking about, the Jew/Gentile idea fits those passages.

A call does not necessitate salvation, when I call to my cat, it has a choice to come or stay where it is. The same with salvation, God's call goes out to all. As Jesus said I will draw all men unto me.

What do you mean by 'covered' ??

The cross covers the life of all men. It was a righteous life given for man's lifetime of sins. But it must be received. To as many as receive Him God gave the right to become the Children of God.

So you believe salvation is by works ???

This is a ridiculous statement, it is so childish to believe we get to heaven, just by believing, without any effort whatsoever. We are judged by our deeds, as I stated from Romans. Call that works based if you like. But there is no such thing as a free ride to heaven. We all must obey God.

Rev 2:11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." '

Overcoming involves effort, overcoming obstacles. Salvation is not given to sinners. But to those:

... who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil,

There is the part God plays, drawing all men to himself, then there is the part we play by remaining faithful and obedient through various trials of our faith.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Not at all. I was just suggesting in the context of what Jesus was talking about, the Jew/Gentile idea fits those passages.

A call does not necessitate salvation, when I call to my cat, it has a choice to come or stay where it is. The same with salvation, God's call goes out to all. As Jesus said I will draw all men unto me.




The cross covers the life of all men. It was a righteous life given for man's lifetime of sins. But it must be received. To as many as receive Him God gave the right to become the Children of God.



This is a ridiculous statement, it is so childish to believe we get to heaven, just by believing, without any effort whatsoever. We are judged by our deeds, as I stated from Romans. Call that works based if you like. But there is no such thing as a free ride to heaven. We all must obey God.

Rev 2:11 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." '

Overcoming involves effort, overcoming obstacles. Salvation is not given to sinners. But to those:

... who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil,

There is the part God plays, drawing all men to himself, then there is the part we play by remaining faithful and obedient through various trials of our faith.

So where does - "God is at work within you, to will and to do of His Good Purpose - fit into your thoughts ???

Likewise "If by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live"

Then this... "I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone."

Is not our calling to walk in the Spirit which is a surrender to His Spirit and not our effort ???

 

[FutureAndAHope]

So where does - "God is at work within you, to will and to do of His Good Purpose - fit into your thoughts ???

Likewise "If by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live"

Then this... "I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone."

Is not our calling to walk in the Spirit which is a surrender to His Spirit and not our effort ???

Think of any work of the Holy Spirit. Is it possible to resist the Holy Spirit's will? The answer is yes. This means the Holy Spirit does not control us, but rather we are led. A person with the Spirit can resist to the point of sin, or a person can obey, leading to good works. Sin is blinding:

Rom 6:12-16 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

If we as Christians "present" ourselves to God, it leads to righteousness, but if we "present" ourselves to sin, it leads to death. There is still a daily "work" we do surrendering to God, at other times we may resist. The Holy Spirit does not "make" us a Holy Robot, no, we work with the Spirit.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Is it possible to resist the Holy Spirit's will? The answer is yes.

No - not for believers who are truely born again. - Not if you have surrendered your will to God at re-birth giving Him the right to reign in your life...

I am not sure why this point needs to be made - total surrender to God is surely fundamental to being truely born again.

'Thy will be done' is prayed every day to confirm this.

Not for unbelievers either.

Apart from that, It astounds me that anyone could suggest that human resistance is greater than God's will and power period.

Do you think Paul wanted to be rendered blind for a time ?

Do you think Ananias wanted to drop dead ?

Do you think Herod wanted to be eaten by worms.

God does what He does - we are but dust.

Paul made it clear that He hardens who He pleases in Romans 9.

Ultimately - No one resists His will, all will be judged and bow the knee to Jesus.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

No - not for believers who are truely born again. - Not if you have surrendered your will to God at re-birth giving Him the right to reign in your life...

I am not sure why this point needs to be made - total surrender to God is surely fundamental to being truely born again.

'Thy will be done' is prayed every day to confirm this.

How then, do believers fall into sin? It is never God's will that we sin, I say this because James says:

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

But we see that believers can fall into sin:

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

Jas 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

Jas 5:19-20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

This shows that it is our "will" working with, or against the Spirit's Will.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Not for unbelievers either.

Apart from that, It astounds me that anyone could suggest that human resistance is greater than God's will and power period.

Do you think Paul wanted to be rendered blind for a time ?

Paul believed he could have been disobedient to the heavenly vision, but he chose to obey.

Act 26:19 "Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision,​

God reached out to him because he sinned ignorantly, he really believed he was doing God's will.

1Ti 1:13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.​

Do you think Ananias wanted to drop dead ?

It was not God forcing Ananias to sin, satan tempted him, and because he surrender to the sin he died.

Act 5:3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?​

Do you think Herod wanted to be eaten by worms.

Herod received the praise of a "god" and for that sin he died.

Act 12:22-23 And the people kept shouting, "The voice of a god and not of a man!" Then immediately an angel of the Lord struck him, because he did not give glory to God. And he was eaten by worms and died.​

God does what He does - we are but dust.

Paul made it clear that He hardens who He pleases in Romans 9.

People know who God is, it is those that turn from His knowledge that God hardens:

Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.​

​

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;​

See my book on Free Will and Romans 9 The Way and Free Will

 

[Carl Emerson]

How then, do believers fall into sin? It is never God's will that we sin, I say this because James says:

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

But we see that believers can fall into sin:

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

Jas 5:16 Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

Jas 5:19-20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

This shows that it is our "will" working with, or against the Spirit's Will.

As to Salvation - meaning being born again - That is totally His work.

As to Regeneration - meaning growing to be more like Him - our co-operation with Him is needed.

It is easy to confuse these separate issues.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Paul believed he could have been disobedient to the heavenly vision, but he chose to obey.

Act 26:19 "Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision,
God reached out to him because he sinned ignorantly, he really believed he was doing God's will.

1Ti 1:13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Paul was clearly chosen by God - his conversion cannot be attributed to him.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Paul was clearly chosen by God - his conversion cannot be attributed to him.

1Ti 1:13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.​

Note, why did Paul obtain mercy? Not because, he was chosen by God before creation, but rather "He was not a willful sinner, he (I) did it ignorantly".

If Paul had of delighted in sin, he would not have been chosen by God.

Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."​

​

I have read the Earliest Church writings, and they all believed in Synergy the idea our choice works along with God's call.
Here is something from chatgtp on the topic:

Throughout Scripture, God calls His people into loving relationship—not by coercion, but by invitation. This understanding is deeply rooted in the theology of the early Church, which taught that divine grace and human will must cooperate in salvation—a principle known as synergy (Greek: συνεργεία, synergeia, “working together”).


Unlike the later monergistic teachings of Augustine and Calvin, the earliest Christian thinkers believed that while God’s grace is essential and primary, human beings must freely respond to it.

Irenaeus (c. 130–202 AD) affirms:
"If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things and to abstain from others?... But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff."
— Against Heresies 4.37.1, 4.39.4

Irenaeus’s vision of human dignity rested on the belief that choice is a necessary part of righteousness. God's grace works powerfully—but never irresistibly.

Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD) wrote:
"We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments and chastisements and good rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. If this is not so, but all things happen by fate, then nothing is our own power. For if it is predestined that one man be good and another wicked, then neither is the one to be praised nor the other blamed."
— First Apology, Chapter 43

Here, Justin boldly defends moral responsibility, which presupposes true freedom. He makes it clear: divine justice assumes human freedom.

Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD) also affirms human agency:
"We... have believed and are saved by voluntary choice."
— Stromata 1.6

In another place, he says:
"It is in our power to follow what is good; but the power to do so is given us by God."
— Stromata 7.7

This is synergy in its simplest form: God gives the power, but we must choose to use it.

Origen (c. 185–254 AD), one of the earliest theologians to write systematic theology, taught:
"The soul... does not suffer compulsion, but has freedom of choice."
— De Principiis 3.1.6

He also wrote:
"God made nothing evil... each individual soul makes itself what it is."
— De Principiis Preface, 6

From the apostolic age through the fourth century, the Church consistently affirmed that grace initiates, and free will cooperates. This cooperative model honors both God’s sovereignty and man’s dignity.

God knocks (Revelation 3:20), but He waits for us to open the door.

This is not a denial of grace’s power—it’s a celebration of its relational nature. God does not save us by override, but by invitation, empowering us through His Spirit to believe, repent, obey, and endure.

 

[Carl Emerson]

1Ti 1:13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.​

Note, why did Paul obtain mercy? Not because, he was chosen by God before creation, but rather "He was not a willful sinner, he (I) did it ignorantly".

If Paul had of delighted in sin, he would not have been chosen by God.

Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."​

​

I have read the Earliest Church writings, and they all believed in Synergy the idea our choice works along with God's call.
Here is something from chatgtp on the topic:

Throughout Scripture, God calls His people into loving relationship—not by coercion, but by invitation. This understanding is deeply rooted in the theology of the early Church, which taught that divine grace and human will must cooperate in salvation—a principle known as synergy (Greek: συνεργεία, synergeia, “working together”).


Unlike the later monergistic teachings of Augustine and Calvin, the earliest Christian thinkers believed that while God’s grace is essential and primary, human beings must freely respond to it.




Irenaeus’s vision of human dignity rested on the belief that choice is a necessary part of righteousness. God's grace works powerfully—but never irresistibly.




Here, Justin boldly defends moral responsibility, which presupposes true freedom. He makes it clear: divine justice assumes human freedom.






This is synergy in its simplest form: God gives the power, but we must choose to use it.






From the apostolic age through the fourth century, the Church consistently affirmed that grace initiates, and free will cooperates. This cooperative model honors both God’s sovereignty and man’s dignity.


This is not a denial of grace’s power—it’s a celebration of its relational nature. God does not save us by override, but by invitation, empowering us through His Spirit to believe, repent, obey, and endure.

Feel free to attribute your salvation to yourself.

You must be a very special person to have engineered your own salvation.

Personally my testimony is more like Paul...

Romans 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Feel free to attribute your salvation to yourself.

You must be a very special person to have engineered your own salvation.

Personally my testimony is more like Paul...

Romans 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

No one attributes their salvation to themselves. The fact is that God's mercy continually reaches out. But God wants a free will response to it. I have heard the robot analogy. Would you prefer a puppy that was a robot, programmed to do everything you told it to, or a real live puppy, that has its own mind, able to both accept or reject your advances?

The fact is that most people would prefer the real puppy. God is the same. He is not "so evil" that he must program us to obey him, but rather " so good to us" that we desire to follow him.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Feel free to attribute your salvation to yourself.

You must be a very special person to have engineered your own salvation.

Personally my testimony is more like Paul...

Romans 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Salvation is not based upon our righteousness, but our "response".

Psa 107:17-21 Fools, because of their transgression, And because of their iniquities, were afflicted. Their soul abhorred all manner of food, And they drew near to the gates of death. Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble, And He saved them out of their distresses. He sent His word and healed them, And delivered them from their destructions. Oh, that men would give thanks to the LORD for His goodness, And for His wonderful works to the children of men!​

When Jesus said:

Joh 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—​

and

John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

There are various levels people are at, some:

• are struggling under the law, trying to keep the commands God has given
• some are not even aware of God, they are ignorant
• some are rebellious, fighting against the conscience

But God will manifest Himself to each of these, showing HIs grace, mercy, and saving power. We, then have a choice, to "obey", as Psa 107 says "give thanks to the LORD", there is an action we take in response to God's word, that brings the love of the Father. God's love is not because we were perfect in deeds, but responded to his word in a way that honours God, with thankfulness.

The sinner, who, when exposed to God's grace, pushes it aside so they can continue to live in darkness, is on a slippery slope.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.​

 

[Carl Emerson]

Salvation is not based upon our righteousness, but our "response".

Psa 107:17-21 Fools, because of their transgression, And because of their iniquities, were afflicted. Their soul abhorred all manner of food, And they drew near to the gates of death. Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble, And He saved them out of their distresses. He sent His word and healed them, And delivered them from their destructions. Oh, that men would give thanks to the LORD for His goodness, And for His wonderful works to the children of men!​

When Jesus said:

Joh 14:15-16 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—​

and

John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.​

There are various levels people are at, some:

• are struggling under the law, trying to keep the commands God has given
• some are not even aware of God, they are ignorant
• some are rebellious, fighting against the conscience

But God will manifest Himself to each of these, showing HIs grace, mercy, and saving power. We, then have a choice, to "obey", as Psa 107 says "give thanks to the LORD", there is an action we take in response to God's word, that brings the love of the Father. God's love is not because we were perfect in deeds, but responded to his word in a way that honours God, with thankfulness.

The sinner, who, when exposed to God's grace, pushes it aside so they can continue to live in darkness, is on a slippery slope.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.​

For me it is not about "robotics' but rather that the love of Jesus is irrestible to the Elect. We are drawn by the Holy Spirit, it is an action of God, He chooses.

Jesus plainly said "you have not chosen me. I have chosen you."

John said that being born again was not because of the will of man.

But that is fine - a fine point of doctrine will not exclude you from heaven as long as you are not proud and attribute salvation to yourself.