Help with John 12:32

[Clare73]

Taking all of Scripture into account I believe it's hard to escape the understanding that it's both/and: those who choose Him and prevail in that choice are the ones He chooses- and the ones He chooses are those who choose Him and prevail in that choice. We can't-and don't need-to take it beyond that IMO.

Taking all of Scripture into account, no one comes to him who is not born again (Jn 3:3-5), which is only by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit.

 

[fhansen]

Taking all of Scripture into account, no one comes to him who is not born again (Jn 3:3-5), which is only by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:3-5 simply says that one must be born again in order to gain eternal life, in order to enter heaven. The entrance way is faith-that's how we're reborn.

 

[Clare73]

John 3:3-5 simply says that one must be born again in order to gain eternal life, in order to enter heaven. The entrance way is faith-that's how we're reborn.

The unregenerate are spiritually dead in trespasses and sin.
The spiritually dead can do nothing spiritual; e.g., believe in Jesus Christ.
They must be regenerated into eternal life by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) in order to even be able to believe.

 

[Carl Emerson]

John 3:3-5 simply says that one must be born again in order to gain eternal life, in order to enter heaven. The entrance way is faith-that's how we're reborn.

Faith is a gift.

 

[johansen]

Understand - and I don't intend the thread to divert to that topic.

However, briefly how do you understand Matt 22:14 ...many are called, but few are chosen

If you have forgotten, i believe i have posted the logic used to say that the verse should read "for all are called but few choose".

 

[fhansen]

Faith is a gift.

I didn't say it wasn't. We could never adequately believe in God without that gift of grace. And, as with any gift, it can also be rejected. We must accept, embrace, and act upon the gift-and continue to persevere in doing so. So, as with hope and love, faith is both: a gift, and a choice.

 

[fhansen]

The unregenerate are spiritually dead in trespasses and sin.
The spiritually dead can do nothing spiritual; e.g., believe in Jesus Christ.
They must be regenerated into eternal life by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) in order to even be able to believe.

They're also described as being sick, asleep, lost-so let's not get too deep into wooden interpretions of isolated metaphor. Either way, Scripture along with experience attest to the fact that those claiming to be regenerated can still fall away, can fail to persevere, can still prove to be mediocre or poor soil in the end, are not yet perfect in their faithfulness to God to put it another way, are not yet "perfected in love", to put it best. That's why they still struggle with attraction to sin: that which is outside of and opposed to God's will, to love.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I didn't say it wasn't. We could never adequately believe in God without that gift of grace. And, as with any gift, it can also be rejected. We must accept, embrace, and act upon the gift-and continue to persevere in doing so. So, as with hope and love, faith is both: a gift, and a choice.

The desire to receive is given...

 

[fhansen]

The desire to receive is given...

The desire to receive is variable, with grace on one side prompting us to desire rightly- and with often conflicting desire on the other. If you've totally overcome the latter then you're ahead of the rest of us, perfected, as it were.

 

[Clare73]

I didn't say it wasn't. We could never adequately believe in God without that gift of grace. And, as with any gift, it can also be rejected. We must accept, embrace, and act upon the gift-and continue to persevere in doing so. So, as with hope and love, faith is both: a gift, and a choice.

Faith is not an outward gift to be accepted.

Faith is the gift of an inner work of the Holy Spirit in the disposition, changing it from unbelief to belief.

God's work is not an outward offer, God's work is a conferred inner disposition.

 

[fhansen]

Faith is not an outward gift to be accepted.

Faith is the gift of an inner work of the Holy Spirit in the disposition, changing it from unbelief to belief.

God's work is not an outward offer, God's work is a conferred inner disposition.

I don't know what an outward gift would even consist of in regard to faith-but either way the gift can be resisted/rejected-in the beginning when first given, or at any point later on.

 

[Clare73]

They're also described as being sick, asleep, lost-so let's not get too deep into wooden interpretions of isolated metaphor. Either way, Scripture along with experience attest to the fact that those claiming to be regenerated can still fall away,

Only in man's religion, but not according to Jesus in Jn 6:49 and the apostle in Eph 1:11, 14.

Eternal (God's) life is just that. . .eternal.

 

[fhansen]

Eternal (God's) life is just that. . .eternal.

Sure, once you fully have it-in the next life even as it begins here in this life. But this life is still a struggle, a battle, and we can fail. Just as life was lost in Eden, we can forfeit it all over again; we'll reap what we sow at the end of the day (Gal 6).

And also the criteria for knowing if we’re regenerated isn’t just personal opinion-or faith in my faith. We must remain in Him as instructed in John 15. And there and in his letters John gives us criteria by which we know if were in Him to begin with: producing good fruit, loving others, overcoming sin.

 

[Clare73]

Sure, once you fully have it-in the next life even as it begins here in this life. But this life is still a struggle, a battle, and we can fail. Just as life was lost in Eden, we can forfeit it all over again; we'll reap what we sow at the end of the day (Gal 6).

And also the criteria for knowing if we’re regenerated isn’t just personal opinion-or faith in my faith.

Straw man. . .Ro 8:16.

 

[fhansen]

Straw man. . .Ro 8:16.

And what does He witness to? How do we know we're His? The preceding verses tell us:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God."

It's that fruit thing, that we have obligation to produce.

 

[Clare73]

And what does He witness to? How do we know we're His? The preceding verses tell us:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God."

It's that fruit thing, that we have obligation to produce.

Circular?

 

[fhansen]

Circular?

It's not just about subjective inner testimony. It must be born out by how we live, with both complimenting each other.

 

[Clare73]

It's not just about subjective inner testimony. It must be born out by how we live, with both complimenting each other.

See post #30.

 

[fhansen]

See post #30.

Faith is a gift. The more we "invest" it the more it grows, along with its counterparts, hope and love. And fruit results-or else it's just talk.

 

[Clare73]

Faith is a gift. The more we "invest" it the more it grows, along with its counterparts, hope and love. And fruit results-or else it's just talk.

Where do we find this "investment" in the NT?