There is no Free Will PERIOD

[Panthers]

No, it's not.
You could message the Mods any time you wanted and have it closed. Your thread; your choice.

I can also turn on the gas and walk away,
but predestined to do other things.

 

[Strong in Him]

If we had free will, we would be able to stop our heart instantaneously or go to sleep and never wake up.

Well people who take their own lives do just that (though, admittedly, it doesn't always work.)
And people who are ill can just give up and decide it is their time to go; I've seen it happen.

The Earth is considered God's Rock Tumbler.
We are the jagged (sinful) gems, and the Lord is our smoothing stone.
At the end of the tumbling, we are judged by our brilliance;
not by other stones we acquired or by other chizelings we claim as our own.

For all of this, is done by God's tumbling.
Not ours.

No idea what this means, nor where it comes from.
It's not Scripture though.

 

[Strong in Him]

Explain Job.

What do you want me to explain about Job?

 

[Strong in Him]

I can also turn on the gas and walk away,

But that doesn't alter the fact that you said this thread is beyond your control, and it isn't.
You created it, you can ask for it to be closed.
Of course, it may get closed for you; that's another matter. But to suggest that you write something and have no say over what happens to it, is incorrect.

 

[Panthers]

What do you want me to explain about Job?

Explain how he had no free will, and how Satan did.

 

[Panthers]

Job 42:2

 

[Strong in Him]

Explain how he had no free will, and how Satan did.

He did have free will. He could have "cursed God and died" as his wife suggested.
He had no choice about his suffering or bereavement - but these are not things that we choose; they happen to us. No one would choose the death of their children or loss of their possessions.
We were burgled over 20 years ago. We didn't choose to have someone enter our property and take our possessions - the burglar chose that. Thankfully, he had no choice about being arrested and sent to jail.

And read chapter 1; the devil could only do what God told him. He may have wanted to end Job's life - God did not allow it.

 

[Strong in Him]

Job 42:2

Yes, God can do everything.
How does that mean that we have no choice?

 

[Panthers]

He did have free will. He could have "cursed God and died" as his wife suggested.
He had no choice about his suffering or bereavement - but these are not things that we choose; they happen to us. No one would choose the death of their children or loss of their possessions.
We were burgled over 20 years ago. We didn't choose to have someone enter our property and take our possessions - the burglar chose that. Thankfully, he had no choice about being arrested and sent to jail.

And read chapter 1; the devil could only do what God told him. He may have wanted to end Job's life - God did not allow it.

No he did, he was a servant of God.
Servant's do not have free will.
They serve God.
Job 1:8

 

[Panthers]

Yes, God can do everything.
How does that mean that we have no choice?

You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.
Job 42:3

It has all been decided by other forces,
all we do as servants is soldier on.

 

[Strong in Him]

No he did, he was a servant of God.
Servant's do not have free will.
They serve God.
Job 1:8

Yes, but God still allows people to walk away, John 6:66, and Judas.
He allowed Jonah to run away and Solomon and Gideon to fall away.

If Job was not able to "curse God and die", if he had no choice but to accept his sufferings then it was wrong of God to commend him for doing so. Job was not showing faith, trust or courage; God had made it so that he couldn't do anything else but accept the situation. Similarly, Job's friends should not have been criticised for their words and advice - God made them do it.

 

[Strong in Him]

You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.
Job 42:3

God had been asking Job a series of questions - "who was it who made ....?" "where were you when I did ....?"
Job was not around when God created the world. God did not need Job's permission, or advice, for anything; including his suffering.

It has all been decided by other forces,
all we do as servants is soldier on.

There are no "other forces".
God is in control and he created us. He made us in his image - and as he is able to choose, it is clear that we are able to also.

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, that suggests that God controls the thousands of things that we think, do, say and feel each day; he had already determined that I would wear a certain skirt this morning. If I change my mind in a few minutes, it's because he decided that as well and already knows what he will prompt me to change in to.
God has far better, and greater, things to do than sending me thoughts about the colour outfit that I will wear.

 

[zoidar]

You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.
Job 42:3

It has all been decided by other forces,
all we do as servants is soldier on.

It almost sounds like you are seeking a way to not be held responsible for your life, but I might have got it wrong...

 

[St_Worm2]

If we had free will, we would be able to stop our heart instantaneously or go to sleep and never wake up.

Hello again Panthers, I suppose it comes down to how one defines "free will" (which is something that may have been a useful thing to do in the OP).

That said, I, for one at least, am glad that God put certain hedges of protection around us when He created us and gave us free will, to make things, like checking out on life, a bit more difficult for us than just doing so on an emotional whim whenever we feel like it

You are, of course, correct, our free will is limited in certain ways (we can't choose to leap off the ground and fly to the moon if we want to), but the fact that our ability to choose has been limited in ~some~ ways by God hardly means that our wills are not free in ~any~ way! For instance, we can and do choose to sin by our own volition, without any help from God whatsoever (who is always at work helping us NOT to sin instead .. e.g. 1 Corinthians 10:13).

--David

 

[AV1611VET]

Columbine.
Shows that America did not learn from the first.

Learn what?

That Klebold & Harris had a choice?

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is no free will in a world that is already predestined.
(As vindicated by countless fulfillments and prophecies)
Even some Physicists agree in the Universe of Destiny
As we cannot live in both Universes (Free will & Destiny) at once.


Therefore,
Every thought we had was predestined thinking;
Every choice we made, was predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we have is predestined thinking,
Every choice we make, is predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we make is destined thinking
Every choice we have, is destined choosing.
&
Every choice [thought] is destined.
Every thought [choosing] is destined.

The real question is why does everyone think opposite?
That, there is a choice?

It could be because every thought we think we have, is not really ours.
If we are predestined individuals under Christ, then we have Hive Mind with Christ.
99.9% of all our thoughts are projected into us by our surroundings or by the past.
Therefore, the solution is to do the opposite of the problem.
Bring our thinking to the present moment called NOW, and isolate ourselves. Matthew 6:6
In that instantaneous and infinite moment called NOW, with zero distractions;
Do we find the Peace of the Supreme.
With the Supreme moment, comes a Supreme awareness of a Supreme intelligence.
This Supreme Intelligence and Supreme Moment is of God.

All Servants who have read this far have been predestined to do so.

Why do you think that every thought we make is predestined, why couldn’t it have just been foreseen?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The real question is why does everyone think opposite?
That, there is a choice?

Well according to the logic you’re using in the OP the reason that everyone thinks that we have the free will to think for ourselves is because God predestined us to think this way. So there are numerous problems with this way of thinking. First of all everyone who refuses to love God does so because God made them reject Him. He doesn’t allow them to love Him and as a result they will burn for all eternity in the lake of fire because God never gave them any options for salvation. Second this means that God is the one who causes all evil in the world because He is the One who controls our thoughts and actions. Third, since no one is actually responsible for their own actions this means that God’s judgment and punishment on the wicked is unjust because He is the One who actually forced everyone to do everything they ever did. How are we supposed to be judged according to our deeds if every deed is actually God’s deed, not our own? I don’t understand how anyone could not see these problems with this faulty logic.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hm, but we can choose what we want to prefer to choose... it's not like what we prefer to choose is predestined, and if it is, how can we prove it is? To me it sounds like it's just a matter of opinion since we can't prove either or.

That’s an easy question to answer. If I choose to lie, steal, murder, and rape, is it scriptural to say that God forced me to do those things?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I can have a preference for vanilla ice cream, still choose chocolate...

... I can have a preference for surgery and life and still choose not to go through with it.

What you need to prove is that our choice is fixed on a preference that is fixed (or predetermined) and that is as far as I know impossible to do. So we end up with philosophy.

We choose what we want to choose most. I can't prove it, but I believe we also choose our "want to choose most". This goes beyond simple desire. Since we can have a strong desire to choose something like a surgery and live, yet choose to not go through with and death. Desire is just one part influencing the will, a will which like I said, I believe we choose.

Instead of using a choice like something as trivial as ice cream apply that same logic to raping and murdering innocent children and see if that causes any conflict with scripture. God forcing people to choose a certain ice cream has no negative impact, but God forcing people to do evil is a completely different story.

 

[HarleyER]

Free will must be defined.

The will is governed by the disposition; i.e., what one prefers.
Absolute free will is the power to make all moral choices, including the choice to live a sin-free life.
Adam had that power and chose to do otherwise, now no one has absolute free will, the power to make all moral choices, as in a sin-free life.

Since the fall, free will is still the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.
And now that is the rub.
Because of his fallen nature, man prefers self over God.

Nevertheless, predestination does not violate our power (free will) to choose what we prefer.
For God works within the predestined to give them to prefer his will, and that being what they prefer, their choice of his will is, therefore, a free choice.

So there is free will--the power to choose what one prefers-- in a world that is already predestined, because God gives them to prefer it.

There is no such thing as "free will". No where in the Bible will one find it mentioned except in a few places where the people of Israel gave a "free will offering".

"Free will" is a term born out of the Pelegius heresy. It presupposes that man is capable of doing things of God. This heresy is two fold.

First, it thinks before salvation that man can make a choice to follow God. He cannot. He's dead in sin.​

​

Second, after salvation this heresy crops up by believing Christians can choose to do "good works" for God. We cannot. The Holy Spirit leads us to do the work the God has ordained for us to do. We are saved to do good works. And sometimes we are rebellous to do those good works as Jonah was. But this is the reason God saved us.​

We choose to do what we think is best but it is ALWAYS within God predestined plan. Think of Joseph who upon returning from Egypt decided it was best to move to Nazareth. Some would say that Joseph made a logical choice. But God already had predestined this and foreknown (determined-NOT looking down some tunnel) it and spoken by the prophets.​

Matt 1:23 and came and lived in a city called Nazareth. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophets: “He shall be called a Nazarene.”​

There is the will of God which is always good. There is the human will which is always bent to do evil. God must change our will and bend it back to desire to do His will. He is ever constantly working in believers to do this very thing.