There is no Free Will PERIOD

[zoidar]

It matters not, all that matters, as far as we are concerned, is that we chose it, thereby making it definite.

What I think matters in this discussion is why this particular choice is our highest preferred choice. This "why" no one knows. Saying it is our highest preferred choice since we choose it makes the reasoning circular: We choose it because it is our highest preferred choice, and it is our highest preferred choice since we choose it.

Nothing occurs that God did not ordain, including the fall of Adam and the redemption of some.

Some hold this view.

 

[Strong in Him]

There is no free will in a world that is already predestined.

But it isn't.

Therefore,
Every thought we had was predestined thinking;

EVERY thought; even the sinful ones?
Good to know that I don't need to confess my wrong thoughts to God because he decided that I should have them.

Every choice we made, was predestined choosing.

Not quite.
You've just said, "every choice WE made". God knew what those choices would be; he still allowed us to make them.

The real question is why does everyone think opposite?
That, there is a choice?

Did God tie Adam up so that he couldn't eat the fruit from the tree?
Did he put an electric fence around it so that no one could touch it?
Did Eve force the fruit down her husband's throat?

It could be because every thought we think we have, is not really ours.

So my wrong thoughts are not really mine?
My wrong decisions which come from my wrong thoughts are not mine, and therefore not my fault?
The wrong actions which I do as a result of my wrong thoughts and decisions, were not mine and I have no responsibility for them?
Good to know I can blame God - not.

99.9% of all our thoughts are projected into us by our surroundings or by the past.

I don't believe for one minute that you have worked out how many thoughts the average person, discovered how they are "projected" by our surroundings or worked out which % of them have been so.

Therefore, the solution is to do the opposite of the problem.

Problem? What problem?
If I decide I am going to steal from a shop, have my 3rd ice cream that day or lie about something to get what I want, I was predestined to have those thoughts - you just said so.
Therefore, I am not in control and have no responsibility for my actions.

Besides that, what you suggest is impossible.
"I think I'm going to steal today. Oh wait, I was predestined to have that thought and it was projected by my surroundings, I'd better do the opposite.
I think I'm not going to steal today. Oh wait, I was predestined to have that thought ...."

All Servants who have read this far have been predestined to do so.

No - I made the choice (probably foolishly but it's not my fault, right?) to challenge your post.

 

[Strong in Him]

The will is governed by the disposition; i.e., what one prefers.

Except that someone can exert willpower and not choose what they prefer if they know it is bad for them, or unobtainable.
I might prefer to collect £50 notes, have my own house, boat or whatever. That is not possible - unless I were to turn to crime or gamble, in the hope of getting more.
My heart, conscience and relationship with God tell me that those things are not an option. So whatever my will thinks it prefers, it has to submit to Christ.

 

[Ace777]

Physicists agree in the Universe of Destiny

Where is the University of Destiny? Is that in Chicago?

 

[Ace777]

God knew what those choices would be; he still allowed us to make them.

Sounds like the teaching of Smith and Calvan. What makes man different from the animals is we have choice. WE make many, many, many choices constantly. People are going to be held accountable for every one of them.

 

[Clare73]

Except that someone can exert willpower and not choose what they prefer if they know it is bad for them, or unobtainable.

Which demonstrates that at the time of their of choice, their preference is what is good for them, or what is obtainable.

I might prefer to collect £50 notes, have my own house, boat or whatever. That is not possible - unless I were to turn to crime or gamble, in the hope of getting more.
My heart, conscience and relationship with God tell me that those things are not an option. So whatever my will thinks it prefers, it has to submit to Christ.

Which means you prefer submission to Christ.

Don't mistake "feelings" for preference.

 

[Joseph G]

Besides that, what you suggest is impossible.
"I think I'm going to steal today. Oh wait, I was predestined to have that thought and it was projected by my surroundings, I'd better do the opposite.
I think I'm not going to steal today. Oh wait, I was predestined to have that thought ...."

LOL!

Brings to mind that robot in an episode of the original Star Trek, "I, Mudd", who starts smoking and fries itself after debating a human conundrum presented by the intrepid crew...

[ok, ok... slinking away now]

 

[St_Worm2]

There is no free will in a world that is already predestined. Every thought we make is destined thinking. Every choice we have, is destined choosing.

........because every thought we think we have, is not really ours.

Hello Panthers, if this is true, that God is the proximate cause of ~everything~ that happens, including our sinful choices, then what basis will there be for His judgement of anyone at the end of the age? IOW, how can God hold any of us accountable for the sinful choices that we make if He is causing/forcing us to make them

This is the biggest elephant in the room for me about all of this, because if what you believe is true, then how can God be considered to be many of the things that we know He is, like just, good and loving?

The other elephant for me is this, why the BIG ruse? Why the Incarnation? Why the Cross? Why, well, any of it then, if we are nothing more than marionettes?

The Bible tells us that we are "predestined" to adoption, to justification, sanctification and glorification, but where does it tell us (or even insinuate) that we are predestined to anything else (much less that the whole of our lives, including all of the choices that we make, are pre-DETERMINED for us by God)?

Thanks!

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - I believe that God is able to declare the end from the beginning .. Isaiah 46:9-10, NOT because He causes (forces) all of it to happen, but because He already knows (and ordains) everything that comes to pass long before it happens, whether it is something that He allows, causes, or stops from happening.

 

[Joseph G]

Hello Panthers, if this is true, that God is the proximate cause of ~everything~ that happens, including our sinful choices, then what basis will there be for His judgement of anyone at the end of the age? IOW, how can God hold any of us accountable for the sinful choices that we make if He is causing/forcing us to make them

This is the biggest elephant in the room for me about all of this, because if what you believe is true, then how can God be considered to be many of the things that we know He is, like just, good and loving?

The other elephant for me is this, why the BIG ruse? Why the Incarnation? Why the Cross? Why, well, any of it then, if we are nothing more than marionettes?

The Bible tells us that we are "predestined" to adoption, to justification, sanctification and glorification, but where does it tell us (or even insinuate) that we are predestined to anything else (much less that the whole of our lives, including all of the choices that we make, are pre-DETERMINED for us by God)?

Thanks!

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - I believe that God is able to declare the end from the beginning .. Isaiah 46:9-10, NOT because He causes (forces) all of it to happen, but because He already knows (and ordains) everything that comes to pass long before it happens, whether it is something that He allows, causes, or stops from happening.

Totally agree. And isn't it funny that the world judges God for creating beings with the potential of spending an eternity in hell, when we cooperate with Him in procreating them?

His motives are pure and holy - to create and save our children for eternity, despite our inevitable failures towards them (which even that He uses to draw them ultimately to Him).

Whereas our motive in procreating them is, in my estimation, for our own vanity - to perpetuate OUR name for absolutely no justifiable reason other than for them to live out a temporal life that manages to reproduce just one more generation to keep OUR name alive. As if our name means anything for eternity's sake.

Thank Jesus (The Name Above All Names) for godly parents who recognize the difference and dedicate themselves to pointing them to Him.

God bless us all!

 

[AV1611VET]

There is no free will in a world that is already predestined.
(As vindicated by countless fulfillments and prophecies)
Even some Physicists agree in the Universe of Destiny
As we cannot live in both Universes (Free will & Destiny) at once.

So you're saying you know why this happened?

 

[Mercy Shown]

There is no free will in a world that is already predestined.
(As vindicated by countless fulfillments and prophecies)
Even some Physicists agree in the Universe of Destiny
As we cannot live in both Universes (Free will & Destiny) at once.


Therefore,
Every thought we had was predestined thinking;
Every choice we made, was predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we have is predestined thinking,
Every choice we make, is predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we make is destined thinking
Every choice we have, is destined choosing.
&
Every choice [thought] is destined.
Every thought [choosing] is destined.

The real question is why does everyone think opposite?
That, there is a choice?

It could be because every thought we think we have, is not really ours.
If we are predestined individuals under Christ, then we have Hive Mind with Christ.
99.9% of all our thoughts are projected into us by our surroundings or by the past.
Therefore, the solution is to do the opposite of the problem.
Bring our thinking to the present moment called NOW, and isolate ourselves. Matthew 6:6
In that instantaneous and infinite moment called NOW, with zero distractions;
Do we find the Peace of the Supreme.
With the Supreme moment, comes a Supreme awareness of a Supreme intelligence.
This Supreme Intelligence and Supreme Moment is of God.

All Servants who have read this far have been predestined to do so.

Did you write this post of your own free will?

 

[St_Worm2]

His motives are pure and holy - to create and save our children for eternity, despite our inevitable failures towards them (which even that He uses to draw them ultimately to Him). Whereas our motive in procreating them is, in my estimation, for our own vanity - to perpetuate OUR name for absolutely no justifiable reason other than for them to live out a temporal life that manages to reproduce just one more generation to keep OUR name alive. As if our name means anything for eternity's sake.

Hello Brother, you make an excellent/important point here about His AMAZING use of even the worst of our failures (and of the many other things that we suffer for) to bring about such good in (and by .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 1:3-4) our lives .. e.g. Romans 8:28; Galatians 3:24

As far as procreation goes however, I would say that, in many cases, people chose to do so for far more honorable reasons than simply their own vanity. It is, after all, the first command that God gives us in the Bible, and that prior to the Fall .. Genesis 1:28, so I think that we honor, please and glorify Him when we choose to obey Him by becoming parents

I also think that, especially as Christians, we can be a true and special blessing to our children in a way that non-Christian parents cannot, being particularly well-suited as believers to help them find God, as well to help bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord .. which is exactly what you said next

Thank Jesus (The Name Above All Names) for godly parents who recognize the difference and dedicate themselves to pointing them to Him.

God bless you!!

--David

 

[Joseph G]

As far as procreation goes however, I would say that, in many cases, people chose to do so for far more honorable reasons than simply their own vanity. It is, after all, the first command that God gives us in the Bible, and that prior to the Fall .. Genesis 1:28, so I think that we honor, please and glorify Him when we choose to obey Him by becoming parents

Yes, Brother, you are so right - procreation is certainly His desire. I should have better stated that, if others are like me, the motives can be mixed if not careful. I know for myself that, as a believer, I had to regularly remind myself that the goal was not to encourage my kids to be like me, or to find their ultimate identity in anyone other than the Heavenly Father and the Lord Jesus. They are His children above all - we just have the privilege to, like you say, instruct them for a little while.

God bless!

 

[Strong in Him]

Sounds like the teaching of Smith and Calvan. What makes man different from the animals is we have choice. WE make many, many, many choices constantly. People are going to be held accountable for every one of them.

I didn't say otherwise. What I said was that God knew what choices we would make.
He told Adam not to eat the fruit, but knew that he would. That's why Jesus is described, by Peter, as being "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world", 1 Peter 1:19-20. God provided a Saviour before we knew that we needed one.

 

[Panthers]

Did you write this post of your own free will?

No I didn't.
In the predestined perspective,
this post always existed.
It's fate is beyond my control
.

 

[Panthers]

So you're saying you know why this happened?

View attachment 352572

Columbine.
Shows that America did not learn from the first.

 

[Panthers]

Hello Panthers, if this is true, that God is the proximate cause of ~everything~ that happens, including our sinful choices, then what basis will there be for His judgement of anyone at the end of the age? IOW, how can God hold any of us accountable for the sinful choices that we make if He is causing/forcing us to make them

This is the biggest elephant in the room for me about all of this, because if what you believe is true, then how can God be considered to be many of the things that we know He is, like just, good and loving?
...

If we had free will, we would be able to stop our heart instantaneously or go to sleep and never wake up.

The Earth is considered God's Rock Tumbler.
We are the jagged (sinful) gems, and the Lord is our smoothing stone.
At the end of the tumbling, we are judged by our brilliance;
not by other stones we acquired or by other chizelings we claim as our own.

For all of this, is done by God's tumbling.
Not ours.

 

[Panthers]

Where is the University of Destiny? Is that in Chicago?

 

[Strong in Him]

In the predestined perspective,
this post always existed.
It's fate is beyond my control

No, it's not.
You could message the Mods any time you wanted and have it closed. Your thread; your choice.

 

[Panthers]

But it isn't.

....

No - I made the choice (probably foolishly but it's not my fault, right?) to challenge your post.

Explain Job.
Keep in mind that both Universes cannot exist.