There is no Free Will PERIOD

[HarleyER]

I didn’t say yes did I? You’re building up your own strawman then proceeding to tear it down and pretending that you achieved some sort of victory when in reality all you accomplished was refuting your own imagination. I’ve spent countless days refuting universalism. It’s real simple just click the magnifying glass icon and type “universalism” then type my profile name in the member box and hit search. You’ll find numerous posts on my beliefs concerning universalism. Furthermore how can some like me for example who teaches that a person can lose their salvation believe in universalism? That’s completely insane! It doesn’t make any sense at all! They’re completely opposing theologies.

So about hearing the gospel. Did Adam & Eve hear the gospel? What about Noah, did he hear the gospel? Abraham did he hear the gospel? How about Elijah did he hear the gospel? Are any of these people saved?

What you said was "Nobody knows." to the question whether someone in a corner of the world, who has never heard about Jesus Christ, if they will be saved.

We know Noah heard the gospel. In fact he preached it for 120 years. Abraham also had faith for he looked forward to his redemption (Heb 11). Likewise Elijah. In all those cases, God came to them and revealed Himself to them.

But we're not talking about our Jewish fathers of faith. We're talking about someone here and now, in some remote place on earth, who never heard the gospel. Will he/she be saved?

If you answer "Yes", then you believe that God saves people apart from Jesus. If you answer "No", then God doesn't give everyone a choice. There is no middle ground.

 

[BNR32FAN]

We know Noah heard the gospel. In fact he preached it for 120 years. Abraham also had faith for he looked forward to his redemption (Heb 11). Likewise Elijah. In all those cases, God came to them and revealed Himself to them.

The gospel of Christ? The good news about His crucifixion and resurrection? No there’s no indication of that anywhere.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But we're not talking about our Jewish fathers of faith. We're talking about someone here and now, in some remote place on earth, who never heard the gospel. Will he/she be saved?

No if we’re going to talk about people who are saved without hearing the gospel of Christ then we can look to the scriptures and see examples of people who were saved without hearing the gospel of Christ. It’s very possible that Jesus went and preached the gospel to the disobedient people from Noah’s time while He was dead for 3 days.

“in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why did He preach to them? What did He preach to them? Who exactly did He preach to and were any of them saved? We don’t know. Hence my answer to your question “nobody knows”.

 

[HarleyER]

No if we’re going to talk about people who are saved without hearing the gospel of Christ then we can look to the scriptures and see examples of people who were saved without hearing the gospel of Christ. It’s very possible that Jesus went and preached the gospel to the disobedient people from Noah’s time while He was dead for 3 days.

“in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Why did He preach to them? What did He preach to them? Who exactly did He preach to and were any of them saved? We don’t know. Hence my answer to your question “nobody knows”.

The gospel was given all the way back in Genesis 3:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity​

Between you and the woman,​

And between your seed and her seed;​

He shall bruise you on the head,​

And you shall bruise him on the heel.”​

Old Testament fathers looked forward to the promise of God. They didn't have all the theological answers but they had enough through the promise of redemption and the temporary atoning sacrificial system to understand that God would someday save them from their sinful condition. It goes all the way back to Gen 3. What was one of the promises of God that our fathers looked forward to?

Job 19:26 “Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God;​

Heb 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.​

Christians today enjoy a better understanding of God's redemptiive plan as we look back at the work of Christ. Btw, sometimes I think Christians take far too lightly and fail to appreciate what we have compared to our OT fathers (e.g. the Holy Spirit and the Word of God).

There has ALWAYS been ONE GOSPEL. Everything spoken of in the Old Testament speaks about Christ (Luke 24:27).

BUT...you still haven't answered the question of whether someone who never heard the gospel is to be sent to hell. Is there a reason you feel uncomfortable answering this question?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The gospel was given all the way back in Genesis 3:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmityBetween you and the woman,And between your seed and her seed;He shall bruise you on the head,And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

So if we believe this were saved? The Jews believed this, the Pharisees believed this. Now you’re not being honest about what the gospel actually is. The gospel was hinted to in Isaiah and Jeremiah but was not revealed in a manner that was understandable. The gospel is not anything that is written about Jesus Christ, the gospel is the good news about Jesus Christ. The good news of how He saved us, it is not merely anything that was ever written about Him. For example Jesus walked on water, if we believe this does that mean that we believe the gospel? Are we saved by simply believing that Jesus walked on water? No that’s not the gospel, it’s information given in the gospel accounts but it’s not the gospel of salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The gospel was given all the way back in Genesis 3:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity​

Between you and the woman,​

And between your seed and her seed;​

He shall bruise you on the head,​

And you shall bruise him on the heel.”​

Old Testament fathers looked forward to the promise of God. They didn't have all the theological answers but they had enough through the promise of redemption and the temporary atoning sacrificial system to understand that God would someday save them from their sinful condition. It goes all the way back to Gen 3. What was one of the promises of God that our fathers looked forward to?

Job 19:26 “Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God;​

Heb 11:13 All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.​

Christians today enjoy a better understanding of God's redemptiive plan as we look back at the work of Christ. Btw, sometimes I think Christians take far too lightly and fail to appreciate what we have compared to our OT fathers (e.g. the Holy Spirit and the Word of God).

There has ALWAYS been ONE GOSPEL. Everything spoken of in the Old Testament speaks about Christ (Luke 24:27).

BUT...you still haven't answered the question of whether someone who never heard the gospel is to be sent to hell. Is there a reason you feel uncomfortable answering this question?

I did answer your question both times you asked me. The answer “nobody knows” means that I don’t know, you don’t know, and nobody else knows.

 

[HarleyER]

I did answer your question both times you asked me. The answer “nobody knows” means that I don’t know, you don’t know, and nobody else knows.

Of course I know simply because the Scriptures tells us.

Acts 4:11 He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”​

If one does not know what it means to be saved, then they have some very serious problems.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Of course I know simply because the Scriptures tells us.

Acts 4:11 He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”​

If one does not know what it means to be saved, then they have some very serious problems.

Congratulations would you care to comment on my post about 2 Peter 3 that I posted yesterday? What was Jesus preaching to the disobedient spirits in prison while He was dead for 3 days? Acts 4:11 doesn’t say that people who died having not heard the gospel won’t be saved. There’s nothing even remotely close to saying anything like that in the passage. You’re pretending to know about something that is not discussed in the scriptures. That’s precisely why the Eastern Orthodox Church believe it is a possibility.

 

[HarleyER]

So if we believe this were saved? The Jews believed this, the Pharisees believed this. Now you’re not being honest about what the gospel actually is. The gospel was hinted to in Isaiah and Jeremiah but was not revealed in a manner that was understandable. The gospel is not anything that is written about Jesus Christ, the gospel is the good news about Jesus Christ. The good news of how He saved us, it is not merely anything that was ever written about Him. For example Jesus walked on water, if we believe this does that mean that we believe the gospel? Are we saved by simply believing that Jesus walked on water? No that’s not the gospel, it’s information given in the gospel accounts but it’s not the gospel of salvation.

So if we believe this were saved? (Gen 3:15)

No. Now who is being less than honest. I specifically stated that the OT fathers looked forward to the promise contained in Genesis 3:15 that God would someday redeem His people. They were not saved by this statement. They were saved by placing their faith in God's promise, that what He said He will do so He will do it. (see Heb 11)

NT people now see the completion of this promise through Jesus Christ. We place our faith and trust in His perfect atoning work, trusting in God's promise that He has said He will redeem us. This is our hope (confidence).

It's not complicated. And if you don't know if someone is saved or not, then there are greater issues that you should be worried about.

First you tell me that we don't know who is saved. Then you tell me who is not saved (e.g. Pharisees, Jews). Then you tell me that you must believe the gospel. Then you tell me no one in the OT believed in the gospel.

I see confusion on your part.

 

[HarleyER]

Congratulations would you care to comment on my post about 2 Peter 3 that I posted yesterday? What was Jesus preaching to the disobedient spirits in prison while He was dead for 3 days? Acts 4:11 doesn’t say that people who died having not heard the gospel won’t be saved. There’s nothing even remotely close to saying anything like that in the passage. You’re pretending to know about something that is not discussed in the scriptures. That’s precisely why the Eastern Orthodox Church believe it is a possibility.

You never said why God the Father chooses people and give them to the Son (John 6)

John 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”​

All I received was a "Yes, but look at this verse..."

2 Peter 3 about the disobedient spirits has multiple interpretations depending on your views of eschatology. It has nothing to do with saving demons from hell.

John 6 tells us 1) people do not believe because we must be given to Christ by God the Father. 2) Once given to Christ, He will not cast us out. 3) This is the will of the Father. 4) The will of the Father is that everyone given to Christ will be saved. 5) The will of the Father is that everyone whod believes in the Son has eternal life. 6) We will be raised on the last day.

Acts 4:11 doesn’t say that people who died having not heard the gospel won’t be saved.

This is universalism, something you told me you didn't agree with. The Scriptures teaches there is no other name but Jesus Christ by which men are to be saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No. Now who is being less than honest. I specifically stated that the OT fathers looked forward to the promise contained in Genesis 3:15 that God would someday redeem His people.

There’s nothing about redemption in the entire chapter of Genesis 3. Nothing at all. Chapter 3 consisted of the fall and the curse, absolutely NOTHING was said in that chapter about redemption.

 

[BNR32FAN]

First you tell me that we don't know who is saved

Nope never said that, you’re exaggerating. I never said anything remotely close to that. I said that nobody knows what happens to people who never heard the gospel, now your extrapolating that into something completely different.

Then you tell me who is not saved (e.g. Pharisees, Jews). Then you tell me that you must believe the gospel. Then you tell me no one in the OT believed in the gospel.

I see confusion on your part.

If I told you that we must believe the gospel to be saved then how did you come to the conclusion that I said “we don’t know who is saved”? No one in the OT believed the gospel because it wasn’t revealed yet. It was alluded to in the OT prophecies but not revealed to the point where someone could have an understanding about it. So the only confusion here is that you can’t seem to understand English or perhaps worse you’re intentionally twisting what I said in an attempt to discredit me which is a despicable deceptive tactic. Hopefully it’s not the latter.

 

[HarleyER]

There’s nothing about redemption in the entire chapter of Genesis 3. Nothing at all. Chapter 3 consisted of the fall and the curse, absolutely NOTHING was said in that chapter about redemption.

You might want to study the Scriptures.

John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.​

 

[BNR32FAN]

You might want to study the Scriptures.

John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.​

Yeah I’m very familiar with the verse, this isn’t the first time I’ve heard of it.

YEC played a role in JD Vance rejecting Christianity in his youth (before later returning and becoming Catholic 5 years ago)

Science books teach HOW things happen and history books teach WHEN things happened. You should probably get a better understanding of what science and history are before wading in with pronouncements like this. History tells us a lot of how. How did the Greeks defeat the Persians at the...

www.christianforums.com

Yes Moses wrote about Jesus and yes the gospel was alluded to in the OT, I already said that, but it was never revealed that salvation would come thru Christ’s sacrifice.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You might want to study the Scriptures.

John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.​

This is your reply to my refutation of your claim that Genesis 3 says that God would redeem man? Post the verse from Genesis 3 that says anything at all about redemption. You made a statement, I pointed out your error so prove me wrong by posting the verse from Genesis 3 that has anything at all to do with redemption.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You might want to study the Scriptures.

John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.​

You might want to admit when you’ve made a mistake instead of quoting passages that have nothing to do with the discussion in an attempt to gloss over the fact that you made an erroneous statement.

 

[HarleyER]

Yeah I’m very familiar with the verse, this isn’t the first time I’ve heard of it.

YEC played a role in JD Vance rejecting Christianity in his youth (before later returning and becoming Catholic 5 years ago)

Science books teach HOW things happen and history books teach WHEN things happened. You should probably get a better understanding of what science and history are before wading in with pronouncements like this. History tells us a lot of how. How did the Greeks defeat the Persians at the...

www.christianforums.com

Yes Moses wrote about Jesus and yes the gospel was alluded to in the OT, I already said that, but it was never revealed that salvation would come thru Christ’s sacrifice.

I don't know about your theology. You state that you don't know who is going to be saved. You've deny the Protoevangelical (Gen 3:16). You feel you can lose your salvation, fail to provide insight into standard verses like John 6, etc. And then you feel election and predestination is wrong.

As far as JD Vance reject YEC, he's not the first. That doesn't make it right.

There isn't much more I can contribute to such beliefs. I suspect you just want to argue rather than try to understand. Pity.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You state that you don't know who is going to be saved.

I’ve already corrected you on this twice which means at this point your just flat out lying about it.

Nope never said that, you’re exaggerating. I never said anything remotely close to that. I said that nobody knows what happens to people who never heard the gospel, now your extrapolating that into something completely different.

If I told you that we must believe the gospel to be saved then how did you come to the conclusion that I said “we don’t know who is saved”? No one in the OT believed the gospel because it wasn’t revealed yet. It was alluded to in the OT prophecies but not revealed to the point where someone could have an understanding about it. So the only confusion here is that you can’t seem to understand English or perhaps worse you’re intentionally twisting what I said in an attempt to discredit me which is a despicable deceptive tactic. Hopefully it’s not the latter.