There is no Free Will PERIOD

[Panthers]

There is no free will in a world that is already predestined.
(As vindicated by countless fulfillments and prophecies)
Even some Physicists agree in the Universe of Destiny
As we cannot live in both Universes (Free will & Destiny) at once.


Therefore,
Every thought we had was predestined thinking;
Every choice we made, was predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we have is predestined thinking,
Every choice we make, is predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we make is destined thinking
Every choice we have, is destined choosing.
&
Every choice [thought] is destined.
Every thought [choosing] is destined.

The real question is why does everyone think opposite?
That, there is a choice?

It could be because every thought we think we have, is not really ours.
If we are predestined individuals under Christ, then we have Hive Mind with Christ.
99.9% of all our thoughts are projected into us by our surroundings or by the past.
Therefore, the solution is to do the opposite of the problem.
Bring our thinking to the present moment called NOW, and isolate ourselves. Matthew 6:6
In that instantaneous and infinite moment called NOW, with zero distractions;
Do we find the Peace of the Supreme.
With the Supreme moment, comes a Supreme awareness of a Supreme intelligence.
This Supreme Intelligence and Supreme Moment is of God.

All Servants who have read this far have been predestined to do so.

 

[Joseph G]

No choice? Hmm... kinda makes God out to be a liar, doesn't it?

Joshua 24:15 KJV

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

Joshua certainly made his choice.

Deuteronomy 30:19 NKJV

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live."

The Israelites made their choice. Er, to obey, and then to rebel, to obey and then to rebel, rinse and repeat. Were they responsible? Or was God flip-flopping on their behalf?

Revelation 3:20 NIV

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."

Note that Jesus does not force the door open, He requires a response on our part to complete the transaction.

ie: open our hands to receive His free gift of saving faith.

Free will? Yes (within parameters, we aren't free to defy gravity for instance). Predestination/Election? Yes. Foreknowlege? Yes. One vessel made for honor and another for dishonor? Yes.

Impossible? Then explain this:

Exodus 10:1 NKJV

"Now the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him..."

OR

1 Samuel 6:6 NIV

"Why do you harden your hearts as the Egyptians and Pharaoh did? When Israel’s God dealt harshly with them, did they not send the Israelites out so they could go on their way?"

Both true.

Potential problem verse?

John 15:16 NIV

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you."

Seals the deal, eh? Not when harmonized with other Scripture:

John 6:43-45 NKJV

"Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."

So why did Jesus choose us? Because the Father first drew us to His Son, like a Suitor to His chosen Bride. One might say, that ours is an arranged marriage by the Father, with His Son's whole-hearted agreement - because His desire is the Father's desire - both being God.

All of this difficult for us to grasp? Absolutely! But God is not bound to bow down before our limitations to fully comprehend HIS reality. Thus why faith in His Word, as taught to us in it's fullness by the Holy Spirit - and as in all things relating to our relationship with Him - is an absolute REQUIREMENT!

God bless!

 

[AV1611VET]

WARNING:

If you read this thread, it's your choice to do so, and you will be held accountable for your decision.​

 

[public hermit]

There is no free will in a world that is already predestined.
(As vindicated by countless fulfillments and prophecies)
Even some Physicists agree in the Universe of Destiny
As we cannot live in both Universes (Free will & Destiny) at once.


Therefore,
Every thought we had was predestined thinking;
Every choice we made, was predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we have is predestined thinking,
Every choice we make, is predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we make is destined thinking
Every choice we have, is destined choosing.
&
Every choice [thought] is destined.
Every thought [choosing] is destined.

The real question is why does everyone think opposite?
That, there is a choice?

It could be because every thought we think we have, is not really ours.
If we are predestined individuals under Christ, then we have Hive Mind with Christ.
99.9% of all our thoughts are projected into us by our surroundings or by the past.
Therefore, the solution is to do the opposite of the problem.
Bring our thinking to the present moment called NOW, and isolate ourselves. Matthew 6:6
In that instantaneous and infinite moment called NOW, with zero distractions;
Do we find the Peace of the Supreme.
With the Supreme moment, comes a Supreme awareness of a Supreme intelligence.
This Supreme Intelligence and Supreme Moment is of God.

All Servants who have read this far have been predestined to do so.

Are you saying if one lives in the now of God's eternity (pace Eckhart), then they will see that they are predestined?

Your post brings together two things that aren't necessarily, at least not obviously, connected: living in the divine, present moment and predestination.

BTW, your last line made me laugh. I like an assertive claim like that even if it could be wrong. Just go all in.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Read..."

Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain​

Michael S. Gazzaniga​

 

[Clare73]

There is no free will in a world that is already predestined.

Free will must be defined.

The will is governed by the disposition; i.e., what one prefers.
Absolute free will is the power to make all moral choices, including the choice to live a sin-free life.
Adam had that power and chose to do otherwise, now no one has absolute free will, the power to make all moral choices, as in a sin-free life.

Since the fall, free will is still the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.
And now that is the rub.
Because of his fallen nature, man prefers self over God.

Nevertheless, predestination does not violate our power (free will) to choose what we prefer.
For God works within the predestined to give them to prefer his will, and that being what they prefer, their choice of his will is, therefore, a free choice.

So there is free will--the power to choose what one prefers-- in a world that is already predestined, because God gives them to prefer it.

(As vindicated by countless fulfillments and prophecies)
Even some Physicists agree in the Universe of Destiny
As we cannot live in both Universes (Free will & Destiny) at once.
Therefore,
Every thought we had was predestined thinking;
Every choice we made, was predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we have is predestined thinking,
Every choice we make, is predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we make is destined thinking
Every choice we have, is destined choosing.
&
Every choice [thought] is destined.
Every thought [choosing] is destined.

The real question is why does everyone think opposite?
That, there is a choice?

It could be because every thought we think we have, is not really ours.
If we are predestined individuals under Christ, then we have Hive Mind with Christ.
99.9% of all our thoughts are projected into us by our surroundings or by the past.
Therefore, the solution is to do the opposite of the problem.
Bring our thinking to the present moment called NOW, and isolate ourselves. Matthew 6:6
In that instantaneous and infinite moment called NOW, with zero distractions;
Do we find the Peace of the Supreme.
With the Supreme moment, comes a Supreme awareness of a Supreme intelligence.
This Supreme Intelligence and Supreme Moment is of God.

All Servants who have read this far have been predestined to do so.

 

[zoidar]

Free will must be defined.

The will is governed by the disposition; i.e., what one prefers.
Absolute free will is the power to make all moral choices, including the choice to live a sin-free life.
Adam had that power and chose to do otherwise, now no one has absolute free will, the power to make all moral choices, as in a sin-free life.

Since the fall, free will is still the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.
And now that is the rub.
Because of his fallen nature, man prefers self over God.

Nevertheless, predestination does not violate our power (free will) to choose what we prefer.
For God works within the predestined to give them to prefer his will, and that being what they prefer, their choice of his will is, therefore, a free choice.

So there is free will--the power to choose what one prefers-- in a world that is already predestined, because God gives them to prefer it.

Hm, but we can choose what we want to prefer to choose... it's not like what we prefer to choose is predestined, and if it is, how can we prove it is? To me it sounds like it's just a matter of opinion since we can't prove either or.

 

[Clare73]

Hm, but we can choose what we want to prefer to choose...

I'm thinkin' I don't chose my preference for ice cream, but rather my innate preference for ice cream is why I choose ice cream.

Likewise, I don't choose my preference for surgery, but rather my innate preference for life is why I choose surgery.

it's not like what we prefer to choose is predestined, and if it is, how can we prove it is? To me it sounds like it's just a matter of opinion since we can't prove either or.

God can cause us to freely choose what he has planned for us to choose, by simply giving us to prefer it, for
free will is the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what we prefer.

 

[zoidar]

I'm thinkin' I don't chose my preference for ice cream, but rather my innate preference for ice cream is why I choose ice cream.

I can have a preference for vanilla ice cream, still choose chocolate...

Likewise, I don't choose my preference for surgery, but rather my innate preference for life is why I choose surgery.

... I can have a preference for surgery and life and still choose not to go through with it.

God can cause us to freely choose what he has planned for us to choose, by simply giving us to prefer it, for
free will is the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what we prefer.

What you need to prove is that our choice is fixed on a preference that is fixed (or predetermined) and that is as far as I know impossible to do. So we end up with philosophy.

We choose what we want to choose most. I can't prove it, but I believe we also choose our "want to choose most". This goes beyond simple desire. Since we can have a strong desire to choose something like a surgery and live, yet choose to not go through with and death. Desire is just one part influencing the will, a will which like I said, I believe we choose.

 

[Merrill]

This has some up many times here, and is a central problem in philosophy.

I do not need to resort to theology to make a case for free-will. I can do it using science and logic

Premise: there is no free will, and everything in the mind is a product of what is in the material universe
Premise: there is nothing in the mind save for what has come through the senses, and this material universe
Premise: because the material universe is predictable and comprehensible, and a person acts only according to what this universe imposes upon him or her, every action can be predicted
Premise: the universe is therefore deterministic

To which I say:
1. Under that system, imagination is impossible
2. Under that system, choosing that which is irrational and immaterial is impossible

but people have imagination, and the conceive "impossible" things. People choose to accept that which contradicts the senses.

in short: there is no "God" in a materialistic, deterministic universe, because imagining God is impossible.

 

[Clare73]

I can have a preference for vanilla ice cream, still choose chocolate...

For whatever reason, at that moment you preferred chocolate. . .there were out of vanilla, it was the wrong kind of vanilla, you preferred something different, etc., etc., etc.

... I can have a preference for surgery and life and still choose not to go through with it.

What you need to prove is that our choice is fixed on a preference that is fixed (or predetermined) and that is as far as I know impossible to do. So we end up with philosophy.

Preferences don't have to be fixed, nor do choices have to be fixed.

All can occur in the moment.

This has some up many times here, and is a central problem in philosophy.

I do not need to resort to theology to make a case for free-will. I can do it using science and logic

Premise: there is no free will, and everything in the mind is a product of what is in the material universe

False premise. . .

Premise: there is nothing in the mind save for what has come through the senses, and this material universe
Premise: because the material universe is predictable and comprehensible, and a person acts only according to what this universe imposes upon him or her, every action can be predicted
Premise: the universe is therefore deterministic

To which I say:
1. Under that system, imagination is impossible
2. Under that system, choosing that which is irrational and immaterial is impossible

but people have imagination, and the conceive "impossible" things. People choose to accept that which contradicts the senses.

in short: there is no "God" in a materialistic, deterministic universe, because imagining God is impossible.

 

[Soyeong]

There is no free will in a world that is already predestined.
(As vindicated by countless fulfillments and prophecies)
Even some Physicists agree in the Universe of Destiny
As we cannot live in both Universes (Free will & Destiny) at once.


Therefore,
Every thought we had was predestined thinking;
Every choice we made, was predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we have is predestined thinking,
Every choice we make, is predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we make is destined thinking
Every choice we have, is destined choosing.
&
Every choice [thought] is destined.
Every thought [choosing] is destined.

The real question is why does everyone think opposite?
That, there is a choice?

It could be because every thought we think we have, is not really ours.
If we are predestined individuals under Christ, then we have Hive Mind with Christ.
99.9% of all our thoughts are projected into us by our surroundings or by the past.
Therefore, the solution is to do the opposite of the problem.
Bring our thinking to the present moment called NOW, and isolate ourselves. Matthew 6:6
In that instantaneous and infinite moment called NOW, with zero distractions;
Do we find the Peace of the Supreme.
With the Supreme moment, comes a Supreme awareness of a Supreme intelligence.
This Supreme Intelligence and Supreme Moment is of God.

All Servants who have read this far have been predestined to do so.

I can predict with perfect accuracy that every time that someone plays through a video game that they will encounter the same plot points in the same order while at the same time they have the freedom to make all sorts of different decisions such that no two times that they play through it are the same.

 

[zoidar]

For whatever reason, at that moment you preferred chocolate. . .there were out of vanilla, it was the wrong kind of vanilla, you preferred something different, etc., etc., etc.

Preferences don't have to be fixed, nor do choices have to be fixed.
All can occur in the moment.

Ok, so you think we can choose other than our highest preferred choice in the moment? Or else our choice is fixed on our highest preferred choice.

False premise. . .

 

[Merrill]

For whatever reason, at that moment you preferred chocolate. . .there were out of vanilla, it was the wrong kind of vanilla, you preferred something different, etc., etc., etc.

Preferences don't have to be fixed, nor do choices have to be fixed.

All can occur in the moment.

False premise. . .

When I say

"Premise: there is no free will, and everything in the mind is a product of what is in the material universe"

I am defining the premise of those who reject free will

now if they are saying something different, I'd like to know what it is? lol

 

[Clare73]

Ok, so you think we can choose other than our highest preferred choice in the moment?
Or else our choice is fixed on our highest preferred choice.

What we choose, by the fact that we choose it, is our highest preferred choice at the time we choose it.

 

[zoidar]

What we choose, by the fact that we choose it, is our highest preferred choice at the time we choose it.

Yes, can you prove our "highest preferred choice" at the moment we choose is definite?

The fact we choose the highest preferred choice does not prove the highest preferred choice itself is predetermined.

 

[Niels]

Perhaps it is by our free will that we can propose thought experiments in which everything is deterministic. However, the extent of our free will is indeed determined to varying degrees by numerous factors. Not everything has to happen exactly as we expect for a plan to come together. Whether we are talking about our own plans or somebody else's. There are those who claim that free will and determinism cannot coexist, but the reality of the situation may be that one cannot exist without the other to some extent.

Which is why the purely deterministic model, along with being of little pragmatic value, looks like a "spherical cow" to me.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

There is no free will in a world that is already predestined.
(As vindicated by countless fulfillments and prophecies)
Even some Physicists agree in the Universe of Destiny
As we cannot live in both Universes (Free will & Destiny) at once.


Therefore,
Every thought we had was predestined thinking;
Every choice we made, was predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we have is predestined thinking,
Every choice we make, is predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we make is destined thinking
Every choice we have, is destined choosing.
&
Every choice [thought] is destined.
Every thought [choosing] is destined.

The real question is why does everyone think opposite?
That, there is a choice?

It could be because every thought we think we have, is not really ours.
If we are predestined individuals under Christ, then we have Hive Mind with Christ.
99.9% of all our thoughts are projected into us by our surroundings or by the past.
Therefore, the solution is to do the opposite of the problem.
Bring our thinking to the present moment called NOW, and isolate ourselves. Matthew 6:6
In that instantaneous and infinite moment called NOW, with zero distractions;
Do we find the Peace of the Supreme.
With the Supreme moment, comes a Supreme awareness of a Supreme intelligence.
This Supreme Intelligence and Supreme Moment is of God.

All Servants who have read this far have been predestined to do so.

Since I do not see all events as previously scripted, I see room for free will—not only free will but free creation—something like open theism.
There is a thing the scripture calls "course of nature." It is not set, and it can be altered. The scripture talks about accidents, fate, and chance. Some years ago, I wrote a couple of books on the subject. One was called "The 'God is in Control of Everything' Myth." The other was more of a pamphlet named "Fate, Chance, and Accidents in the Bible, The Existence of Chance in the Plan of God."
The goal of these books is to show that we can have faith. We can only have faith if things are not scripted. It is impossible to have faith for prayer, healing, even salvation itself if you believe your status is scripted and cannot be changed. I know people who have said they were destined to be lost, and so doubt the gospel could save them. Others thought they were destined to be sick, and so they could not pray the prayer of faith to be healed. The entire concept of prayer requires we believe that it is God's will for all of us to be saved, and to have our prayers answered. We have to believe that we have received, and you cannot do that if you also believe that your life is scripted to the negative.

 

[HarleyER]

There is no free will in a world that is already predestined.
(As vindicated by countless fulfillments and prophecies)
Even some Physicists agree in the Universe of Destiny
As we cannot live in both Universes (Free will & Destiny) at once.


Therefore,
Every thought we had was predestined thinking;
Every choice we made, was predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we have is predestined thinking,
Every choice we make, is predestined choosing.
&
Every thought we make is destined thinking
Every choice we have, is destined choosing.
&
Every choice [thought] is destined.
Every thought [choosing] is destined.

The real question is why does everyone think opposite?
That, there is a choice?

It could be because every thought we think we have, is not really ours.
If we are predestined individuals under Christ, then we have Hive Mind with Christ.
99.9% of all our thoughts are projected into us by our surroundings or by the past.
Therefore, the solution is to do the opposite of the problem.
Bring our thinking to the present moment called NOW, and isolate ourselves. Matthew 6:6
In that instantaneous and infinite moment called NOW, with zero distractions;
Do we find the Peace of the Supreme.
With the Supreme moment, comes a Supreme awareness of a Supreme intelligence.
This Supreme Intelligence and Supreme Moment is of God.

All Servants who have read this far have been predestined to do so.

Even being the very stanch Calvinist that I am, I find this rather difficult to grasp. How God predestines and elects people to salvation, and yet people have a responsibility to accept Christ is a mystery. I have my thoughts but they are outside of normal orthodoxy Christianity.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, can you prove our "highest preferred choice" at the moment we choose is definite?

It matters not, all that matters, as far as we are concerned, is that we chose it, thereby making it definite.

The fact we choose the highest preferred choice does not prove the highest preferred choice itself is predetermined.

Nothing occurs that God did not ordain, including the fall of Adam and the redemption of some.