The Need to Practice Rapture

[oikonomia]

I view 'watching', as being aware of and prepared for all that is Prophesied to happen in our future.

You should view "watching" as watching that you are inwardly in touch with the living God.
You are watching that you are abiding in His inward presence and He is changing you into the image of Christ.

Watching solely outward events is like the watching of those who follow Nostradamus predictions or astrologers or palm readers.

If people like to believe they will be suddenly taken up to live in heaven and to avoid any trials and tribulations, then why bother watching and even bother trying to understand any of the end times Prophesies?

It is not a matter at all if what the Bible reader "likes." It is a matter of best interpretation of what is written.
If you "like" everything in the Bible I would not trust you.
For the Bible somewhere offends everyone concerning what they would prefer or like.

This is the tragedy of the rapture theory; people are complacent and careless about what God has so comprehensively given us thru His Prophets.

The misfortune would be in being the one Christian left as a result of complacency or heedlessness.

At that time two [Christian] men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two [Christian] women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:40-42)

We're on firm biblical footing to believe there ARE instances when saints are raptured to heaven.
Rather than sympathy what God's people need is examples of those living a watching life. That would help along with
teaching rightly.

So when disaster strikes, when the earth shudders and is moved from its place, Isaiah 13:13, when fire envelopes the world, Zephaniah 3:8 and powerful storms, tsunamis and thick darkness comes, Joel 2:30-33, and we are all still here on planet earth, will those who imagined they would be raptured, still trust the Lord and maintain their faith?

The Christians left will most likely know what has happened. Woe is upon them as they see Antichrist manifested.
Mind you out from those left overcoming saints will be produced.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time. (Rev. 12:12)

They ones seen standing on the sea of glass in Revelation 15 are what we call the late overcomers.
These may havve missed the early rapture. But they become victors through the great tribulation.

And I saw as it were a glassy sea mingled with fire and those who come away victorious from the beast and from his image and from the number of his name standing on the glassy sea, having harps of God.

And they sing the song of Moses, the slave of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and wonderful are Your works, Lord God the Almighty! Righteous and true are Your ways, O King of the nations!

Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; for all the nations will come and worship before You, for Your righteous judgments have been manifested. (Rev. 15:2-4)

 

[keras]

We're on firm biblical footing to believe there ARE instances when saints are raptured to heaven.

A few special people, for a special purpose. They are never said to have stayed in heaven to live.

The idea of Gods faithful people being removed from the earth before the final Judgment, runs counter to the many exhortations for us to stand firm in whatever happens -even unto death.
Our Great Commission, Matthew 28:19-20, is still applicable and it is never rescinded until Jesus Returns.

The Christians left will most likely know what has happened

As there is no definitive scripture which says anyone will be raptured, then all the survivors will know what happened:
The ungodly; to desperately try to re establish law and order, will soon set up a One World Govt.
The faithful Christian peoples; will then understand what God has planned for His people:

After the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath:
Isaiah 43:8 Bring forth this people, a people whose eyes are blind, whose ears are deaf.

Isaiah 35:4-5 Be strong, fear not; the Lord comes to save you, with His vengeance and retribution. THEN the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped.

Isaiah 42:18-20 You that are deaf; hear now, you that are blind; look and see! Who is so deaf and blind as My servant, the messenger that I send, the one who has My trust?

Isaiah 29:18 On that Day, the deaf will hear and the blind will see.

Isaiah 29:24 Then the confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will take instruction.

Isaiah 32:3-4 Then those who see and hear will understand clearly, the impetuous mind will know and the stammering tongue will speak fluently and plainly.

As the Lord’s people go to live in all of the Holy Land:
Isaiah 41:17-20 The poor and needy [His people] look for water and find none, but I, the Lord, shall provide for their wants, I shall open springs of water and grow crop and trees. So all may see and understand that it is the Lord who does these things. Ezekiel 34"11-16, Romans 9:24-26
All before Jesus Returns.

 

[oikonomia]

A few special people, for a special purpose. They are never said to have stayed in heaven to live.

The overcomers are not special. They are normal. His grace is sufficient for our overcoming.
It is abnormal that recipients of God's grace would not overcome.

The idea of Gods faithful people being removed from the earth before the final Judgment, runs counter to the many exhortations for us to stand firm in whatever happens -even unto death.

What do you mean by "final judgment"? The early rapture is not avoidance of the judgment seat of Christ which
is reserved only for the saved.

The man-child DOES consist of those who were faithful even unto death.

And they [the corporate man-child] overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (Rev. 12:11)

You must realize that there is also the satisfaction rendered to Christ by following Him where ever He may go.
The firstfruits deny themselves, pick up the cross and follow the Lord wherever He guided them.

These are they who have not been defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are they who follow the Lamb wherever He may go. These were purchased from among men as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. (Rev. 14:4)

So among those who died, God will resurrect and rapture some overcomers before the GT.
And among those living God will rapture a remnant of overcomers before the GT.

And among those who heed the call to live watching He will rapture before the GT.

At that time two [Christian] men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two [Christian] women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:40-42)

So it behooves the Christians to watch that they are learning to abide in the Lord and walk by the Spirit.

 

[oikonomia]

After the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath:
Isaiah 43:8 Bring forth this people, a people whose eyes are blind, whose ears are deaf.

How does Isa. 43:8 make "one is taken and one is left" not true?

Isaiah 35:4-5 Be strong, fear not; the Lord comes to save you, with His vengeance and retribution. THEN the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped.

Why does Isaiah 35:4-5 make "one is taken and one is left" not to be believed?

Isaiah 42:18-20 You that are deaf; hear now, you that are blind; look and see! Who is so deaf and blind as My servant, the messenger that I send, the one who has My trust?

What is it about Isaiah 42:18-20 which makes impossible to believe "one is taken and one is left" in Matthew 24?

Isaiah 29:18 On that Day, the deaf will hear and the blind will see.

Why does Isaiah 29:18 make it unlikely that God would keep His word that "one is taken and one is felt."

Isaiah 29:24 Then the confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will take instruction.

Why does Isaiah 29:24 render "one is taken and one is left" untrue?

Isaiah 32:3-4 Then those who see and hear will understand clearly, the impetuous mind will know and the stammering tongue will speak fluently and plainly.

Why does Isaiah 32:3-4 make unbelivable the words of Christ that "one is taken and one is left"?

As the Lord’s people go to live in all of the Holy Land:
Isaiah 41:17-20 The poor and needy [His people] look for water and find none, but I, the Lord, shall provide for their wants, I shall open springs of water and grow crop and trees. So all may see and understand that it is the Lord who does these things. Ezekiel 34"11-16, Romans 9:24-26
All before Jesus Returns.

What is it about Isaiah 41:17-20 that makes the Lord's promise that "one is taken and one is left" erroneous?

I don't see why these promises from Isaiah are cause for me to not take the words of Jesus Christ
about watching to live for the Lord's unexpected coming for me.

I don't see how these promises and Christ's teaching are somehow mutually exclusive and both cannot be true words of God.

Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:41,42)

For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming.
Who then is the faithful and prudent slave, whom the master has set over his household to give them food at the proper time?

Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
Truly I say to you that he will set him over all his possessions. (Matt. 24:44-47)

 

[keras]

I don't see why these promises from Isaiah are cause for me to not take the words of Jesus Christ
about watching to live for the Lord's unexpected coming for me.

Those scriptures I posted, show how people who choose to believe in false teachings will be blinded to the truth.
Matthew 24:37-40 will happen on the Day the Lord sends His fiery wrath. The terrible Day, soon to happen; similar to what happened in the days of Noah. Many will be taken, Jeremiah 25:33, but those who stand firm in their faith and call upon the Name of the Lord, will be protected thru it all.

A dramatic reset of our civilization, this time by fire from the sun. Something that most people seem to be quite unaware of.

For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming.
Who then is the faithful and prudent slave, whom the master has set over his household to give them food at the proper time?

Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
Truly I say to you that he will set him over all his possessions. (Matt. 24:44-47)

This quote refutes any ideas of a rapture removal.
When the Master comes, later; at the glorious Return, He will set His faithful servants over all His possessions. The earth.

 

[oikonomia]

This quote refutes any ideas of a rapture removal.
When the Master comes, later; at the glorious Return, He will set His faithful servants over all His possessions. The earth.

So what? Of course the overcomers are faithful servants rewarded to be placed in authority over His possessions.
The corporate man-child is destined to do what Christ does on earth, shepherd the nations which
He inherits.

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

Compare:

And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father; (Rev. 2:26,27)

None of this you mentioned is a refutation to the corporate man-child being rapture before the 1,260 days of Antichrist's activity on earth.

. . . . and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. (Rev. 12:5b,6)

And nothing was said about the number comprising the man-child is "half" of the universal church. The sign is just that a stronger part of the larger body is raptured before the 1,260 days. It says the dragon persecutes "the rest of her seed" (v.17). The percentage of the number in the man-child to the "rest of her seed" is unknown.

 

[keras]

And nothing was said about the number comprising the man-child is "half" of the universal church. The sign is just that a stronger part of the larger body is raptured before the 1,260 days. It says the dragon persecutes "the rest of her seed" (v.17). The percentage of the number in the man-child to the "rest of her seed" is unknown.

Zechariah 14:2b specifically says 'half'. Daniel 9 27 says 'many', and Daniel 11:35 tells us why they become divided into 2 halves.
Of course not necessarily exact numbers in each half. I would think the division is in family groups.

What is glaringly obvious in all of those relevant Prophesies, is that nobody is raptured to heaven.

 

[oikonomia]

Zechariah 14:2b specifically says 'half'. Daniel 9 27 says 'many', and Daniel 11:35 tells us why they become divided into 2 halves.
Of course not necessarily exact numbers in each half. I would think the division is in family groups.

What is glaringly obvious in all of those relevant Prophesies, is that nobody is raptured to heaven.

Before I reply let me ask you a question. Months ago I think I recall you quite reluctant to view the man-child as
a corporate entity. Lately, have you decided this is now more plausable? You spoke of some scholars say this and some scholars say that.
You seemed to move closer to idea of a coporate man-child group. Is this so?

Now as for "half" in Zechariah 14:2 it says -

For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city will be captured, and the houses plundered, and the women ravished; and half of the city will go forth into captivity, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.

That is not about "half" of anything except people living in "the city" of Jerusalem.
That is not "half" of all the Christians living at that time.
Nor is it "half" of all the universal church throughout all the ages.
Nor is it "half" of the entire body of God's redeemed people throughout the history of both covenants including up to Moses.

Even if there is a genuine local church in the city of Jerusalem at that time does it say "half" of the churching saints
will be there to undergo whatever calamity occurs. It just says half of the city will go forth into captivity, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.

For a percentage of the entire body of saints throughout history that will comprise the man-child I will only say this.
And I am serious.

1.) It could include you or I or anyone reading this post.
2.) For a better understanding what the remnant means something, like this example gives an idea at least:

Now then proclaim in the hearing of the people, saying, Whoever is afraid and trembling should return and depart from here. And twenty-two thousand of the people returned, and ten thousand remained.

Then Jehovah said to Gideon, The people are still too many. Bring them down to the water, and I will test them for you there. And he of whom I say to you, This one shall go with you, he shall go with you. And every one of whom I say to you, This one shall not go with you, he shall not go.

So he brought the people down to the water. And Jehovah said to Gideon, Everyone who laps from the water with his tongue, as a dog laps, you shall set apart; likewise everyone who bows down on his knees to drink.

And the number of those who lapped the water into their mouth with their hand was three hundred men, but the rest of the people bowed down on their knees to drink water.

And Jehovah said to Gideon, Through the three hundred men who lapped I will save you, and I will deliver Midian into your hand. But let all the other people go, each to his own place. (Judges 7:3-7)

That gives an idea of what the remnant will be like. Out of 22,000 who were told not to bother another 10,000 were left to be tested.
And of them God said He would use 300 for the battle. No one knows the precise ratio (man-child to universal bright woman) except God.

Mind you now what the remnant did was not for their benefit alone but for the entire nation.
So it will be when from Paradise and from those living God secures a remnant stronger component of the total to
have the honor to accompany Christ in His descent to crush Antichrist over the Holy Land.

 

[keras]

Months ago I think I recall you quite reluctant to view the man-child as
a corporate entity. Lately, have you decided this is now more plausable? You spoke of some scholars say this and some scholars say that.
You seemed to move closer to idea of a coporate man-child group. Is this so?

This is from an old article of mine:
Revelation 12 passage describes a woman, a child, and a dragon. A superficial reading of the text instantly brings to mind Mary, Jesus, and Satan, who are certainly significant, prophetic types, but there is more to it than that.

The sign represents these individuals in a historical context, but also as larger, corporate entities. Biblical scholars have often understood the woman to represent Mary as an individual and as corporately: the true of Israelites of God.

Likewise, the dragon clearly represents Satan as an individual and also the entire world system opposed to God. However, while the same scholars have observed that the male child is a symbol of Christ, they've missed the pattern. Just as the woman and dragon have corporate meanings, the male child does, too - it is Jesus and the collective body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:12-13

Now as for "half" in Zechariah 14:2

What you and most do not see, is how all the Christian peoples will gather and live in all of the holy Land. Jerusalem is just the capital city.
This is Prophesied to happen soon after the Lord has cleared and cleansed the Land. Isaiah 35 is a good example of how the faithful Christians will enter the regenerated holy Land.
As Zechariah 14:1 states, we will be conquered and the Satanically controlled 'beast' man will rule the world for 42 months. Rev 13:5-8, Daniel 7:23-25 & 11:32
But in Revelation 12 we can see how the Christian peoples will be divided into 2 groups; one taken to safety, the other remaining and under persecution.

So it will be when from Paradise and from those living God secures a remnant stronger component of the total to
have the honor to accompany Christ in His descent to crush Antichrist over the Holy Land.

Pretentious nonsense!
Paradise is a Muslim term. A fable and a fairy tale place.
I would have credited you with more sense, but to believe you will Return with Jesus, waving a sword, leaves you beyond the pale; in lala land.

 

[oikonomia]

This is from an old article of mine:
Revelation 12 passage describes a woman, a child, and a dragon. A superficial reading of the text instantly brings to mind Mary, Jesus, and

Thanks for the reference quote.
Now my question was to you personally. What do you believe? Yes or No to is the man-child a collective?

Are you opened to the man-child representing the referent to the plural pronouns in verses 10 and 11? [my caps]

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses THEM before our God day and night.

And THEY overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of THEIR testimony, and THEY loved not THEIR soul-life even unto death.

What you and most do not see, is how all the Christian peoples will gather and live in all of the holy Land. Jerusalem is just the capital city.

Do you believe that the entire number of resurrected believers in Christ will go to live in the Holy Land?
You're talking about a very large number of saints from the past including the billions probably right now living who are regenerated.

We all go to live in Judea at Christ's descent to earth ?

This is Prophesied to happen soon after the Lord has cleared and cleansed the Land. Isaiah 35 is a good example of how the faithful Christians will enter the regenerated holy Land.

So you are speaking of a remnant of the entire universal church or the entire church will go to the Holy Land?

After the millennium there is something called "the camp of the saints" (Rev. 20:9) in the Holy Land.
Is that "camp of the saints" what you mean?

And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison
And will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. Their number is like that of the sand of the sea.

And they went up upon the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; and fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. (Rev. 20:7-9)

Pretentious nonsense!

If paradise is "pretentious nonsense" then it is "pretentious nonsense" out of from the lips of the Son of God.

Luke 23:43 - And He said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Revelation 2;7 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.

Paradise is a Muslim term. A fable and a fairy tale place.

So in Luke 23:43 and Revelation 2:7 the Son of God Jesus Christ was speaking under the influence of Islam ?

You were saying something about "pretentious nonsense"? Another 400 some years at least were to elapse before
Muslims were around.

 

[keras]

Yes or No to is the man-child a collective?

The whole Bible is Written to us, the peoples of God, those who have overcome evil in the Name of Jesus.
The 'man child' of Rev 12:5 is Jesus, the 'woman herself', in Rev 12:6 , represents the Christian peoples. ONLY Jesus goes to heaven, the faithful people of God are kept safe for the 1260 days of world Satanic control.

Do you believe that the entire number of resurrected believers in Christ will go to live in the Holy Land?

This is where your error and confusion shows. NO ONE is resurrected until Jesus Returns and then they are only the GT martyrs.
The people who will travel to and live in the new nation of Beulah, are living Christians, those who will have proved their faith by standing firm during the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath. John sees us all in the holy Land; Revelation 7:9

We all go to live in Judea at Christ's descent to earth ?

All the faithful Christians will occupy all of the holy land. At least 10 years before Jesus Returns. In the very place where ancient Israel was expelled from. Romans 9:24-26

After the millennium there is something called "the camp of the saints" (Rev. 20:9) in the Holy Land.
Is that "camp of the saints" what you mean?

That is a thousand years, plus; later. But it is a similar situation, as Satans armies will again attack Gods people in the holy Land.

Luke 23:43 - And He said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise.

Wrong placement of the comma and you even Capitalize Today, Bad you.
How do you reconcile 1 Peter 3:19? Jesus didn't go immediately to heaven at all.

Paradise is an ancient Persian concept. Muslims fondly imagine they will go there, but we Christians should not think that Paradise, or heaven; is our destination, as we remain on earth through all that must happen and after the Millennium, the new Jerusalem and God Himself, comes to us.

 

[oikonomia]

The whole Bible is Written to us, the peoples of God, those who have overcome evil in the Name of Jesus.

Eventually all Christians will become overcomers by the time of the new heaven and new earth.
He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me. (Rev. 21:27)

That is the inevitability by the end of the millennium. However, until that time not everyone in the unversal church
is chosen for reward in the intervening time during the 1,000 years. It is cheating to Christians to teach them that
all will be rewarded when the word of God says some receive a reward and some do not but rather suffer loss.

The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.(1 Cor. 3:13-15)

Do you believe First Corinthians 3:13-15 or do you not believe it?

The 'man child' of Rev 12:5 is Jesus, the 'woman herself', in Rev 12:6 , represents the Christian peoples.

The women clothed in the sun with the moon beneath her feet and a crown of twelve stars is the same
woman as will be the ultimate Bride and Wife of the Lamb in the eternal age.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more.
And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev. 21:1,2)

That is the entire body of God's redeemed people from all ages - the patriarchs before the law, the people under the law, the people
of the new covenant, and whoever else is indwelt by the Spirit of the Triune God unknown to us from now unto the new heaven and new earth.
That ultimate bride and wife of Christ is larger in scope than the number of those rewarded during the millennium.

The more limited number of overcomers who "will receive a reward" are a group composed of the man-child of Revelation 12 and
the first-fruits of Revelation 14.

The man-child are those who have died overcomers - "THEY loved not THEIR soul-life even unto death." (Rev. 12:11)
This renmant has had Jesus wrought into them so that as He is so are they in this world. And they are raptured to heaven.
And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

The firstfruits are those found living overcoming at the end times. They follow the Lamb wherever He goes and appear raptured into heaven. (Rev. 14:1-5)

Both groups, the subgroup of living overcomers and the subgroup of dead overcomers will be taken to the third heaven.
Sorry you don't like it.

The larger body of which they are a part is the universal bright woman composed of all the people of the new covenant-
a woman clothed with the sun, (Rev. 12:1).
She is also composed of the people who were under the law before Christ
and the moon underneath her feet, (v.1)
She is also composed of the patriarchs before the giving of the law.
and on her head a crown of twelve stars; (v.1)

The man-child being also a part OF her is seen as a child coming forth FROM her in birth.
And she was with child, and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth. (v.2)
The words with child mean for a time she and the child are just one. When you see her the child is hidden within her.

Throughout the ages Satan has been particularly ready to destroy any in the universal body of believers
who are stronger in testimony. He has been poised that the stronger ones would never be produced.
But he cannot stop a stronger subgroup from being produced out from the larger body of saints.

And his tail drags away the third part of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bring forth, so that when she brings forth he might devour her child. (v.4)

The crying out of the woman is the prayers, petitions, beseechings of God's people throughout the ages -
travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth.
Strictly speaking because the Son of God the Lord Jesus ALSO is a Jew, a man, one of God's people, He is the HEAD overcomer.
He came as a result of the crying out of God's people for the fulfillment of his promise that a seed of the woman would
finally come and bruise the head of the serpent.

And I will put enmity / Between you and the woman / And between your seed and her seed; / He will bruise you on the head, / But you will bruise him on the heel. (Gen. 3:15)

God's eternal economy is to dispense Himself into His people. God's eternal plan is to wrought His life and nature
into His redeemed people. Put in other words - to mass produce God-men from the standard model of THE God-man Jesus Christ.

The man-child brought forth with difficulty, prayers, cryings out, in spite of Satan's age long opposition is a corporate
group of saints through whom the Triune God has gotten through to dispense Christ as life INTO them.
As a collective "THEY" who overcame, the reward is resurrection and rapture to heaven.

The bruising of Satan's head is not only the act of Christ our forerunner, Elder Brother, and Captain of salvation.
It is also the mandate given to the victorious church into whom God works Christ into them.
Now the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. (Rom. 16:20)

ONLY Jesus goes to heaven, the faithful people of God are kept safe for the 1260 days of world Satanic control.

I believe the Bible in this.
And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death. (vs. 10,11)

Your interpretation is inferior. God believe it if you wish.
I will teach that "THEY" who overcame the accuser refers to the man-child raptured to heaven.

The plural indicators "our brothers" - "our God" - "them" - "they" - "their"- "they" - "their" all refer to the corporate
man-child that was caught up to the throne of God in heaven roughtly 1,260 days before the end of the present
age.

The larger body from whom the man-child was born who are alive are left to pass through the 3.5 years
under God's provision in those difficult times to come.

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. (v.6)

 

[oikonomia]

I have debated with keras over this repeated times.

Someone else tell me who in Revelation 12:10-12a these phrases and words refer to.

the plural indicators "our brothers" - "our God" -"them" - "they" - "their"- "they" - "their" - "those who dwell in heaven"

I would like to hear from someone else on this besides keras.
Who in that chapter 12 does this refer to?

And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. (vs. 10-12a)

 

[Jerryhuerta]

Christians of all end-time opinions have one common need I believe.
That is the need to PRACTICE being snatched away by Jesus.
This is not invitation to argue about pre-trib, post-trib, middle trib, no-trib, rapture as to time.
The thread's purpose is our need to be -

Taken by Jesus from certain negative things.
Taken by Jesus from distracting things (distracting us away from God).
Taken by Jesus from the fallen self centered living into the Lord's presence.

I do not mean to practice being physically taken up somewhere off the earth.
I mean the continual need to rehearse, practice, have many experiences of being CAUGHT away by the
Lord Jesus within FROM whatever the Holy Spirit convicts us of as unglodly.

Brethren, we who love the Lord need each day to practice allowing the Spirit of Jesus
to rescue us fast, catch us away, take our heart elsewhere INTO His presence FROM other loves.

Did you practice being taken away by Jesus today?
Did I have some experiences of Jesus catching me quickly off from something ungodly?
We all need to practice letting Him catch us away from self, sin, world, and all idols and distractions from the Triune God.

There's the OP brethren.

Be careful rehearsing going to heaven; you might not find your way back! And BTW, keras has a greater command of the subject than you.

 

[oikonomia]

Be careful rehearsing going to heaven; you might not find your way back! And BTW, keras has a greater command of the subject than you.

I am speaking of being caught away from the world, the flesh, sin, and the self to enjoy the Lord within.
That is the essence of watching in Matthew 24.

And more than a wisecrack, a wink and a smile will be needed to discourage this healthy teaching.
Do you have anything more besides a crack or two and a wink to contribute here?

 

[oikonomia]

It is noted that poster Jerryheurta did not bother to offer an answer to the question asked.
Anyone else?

The plural indicators "our brothers" - "our God" -"them" - "they" - "their"- "they" - "their" - "those who dwell in heaven"
who do these apply to in Revelation ch. 12?

 

[Jerryhuerta]

I am speaking of being caught away from the world, the flesh, sin, and the self to enjoy the Lord within.
That is the essence of watching in Matthew 24.

And more than a wisecrack, a wink and a smile will be needed to discourage this healthy teaching.
Do you have anything more besides a crack or two and a wink to contribute here?

Right, being "caught away" or raptured, as you say, is "going to heaven." How do you rehearse going to heaven? You might not find your way back! Be careful.

And you asked for an opinion on who has the best grasp of the subject, and I gave it to you. Keras has the greater grasp.

 

[oikonomia]

Right, being "caught away" or raptured, as you say, is "going to heaven."

No I don't exactly say that. You should read what I wrote more carefully.
[though of late I may have gotten distracted]

My burden was to basically emphasize the normal Christian should not be shocked perchance they are
physically taken off by the Lord. They should develop the lifestyle through patience and habit
to live enjoying His presence. That is the nature of "watching" there.

This is profitable no matter what your view is about the coming paruosia of the Lord.
This watching, abiding, setting the mind on the things above meets the need of Jesus Christ to fillus up with His life.

Of course it meets the need of those watching for His unexpected coming for them.
But it meets the need of the Triune God to have his people filled, saturated, soaked in their souls with the Spirit of Christ.

 

[oikonomia]

Rapture - as it should be understood is a happiness - an estatic joy.
Why should we not practice to turn to the Lord to be in a estatic joy and enjoyment with Him?

Now some here have attempted to define the word more limitedly as being caught up physically by God,
I do not object to them drawing from Latin or something to texturally prove this is the meaning of a word.
I don't think the word is in the text of the Greek NT.

if you are more helped by keras's presentations of the subject, go with that.
As long as Jesus is being preached it is good.

What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truthfulness,
Christ is announced; and in this I rejoice; yes, and I will rejoice; (Phil. 1:18)

 

[Jerryhuerta]

No I don't exactly say that. You should read what I wrote more carefully.
[though of late I may have gotten distracted]

My burden was to basically emphasize the normal Christian should not be shocked perchance they are
physically taken off by the Lord. They should develop the lifestyle through patience and habit
to live enjoying His presence. That is the nature of "watching" there.

This is profitable no matter what your view is about the coming paruosia of the Lord.
This watching, abiding, setting the mind on the things above meets the need of Jesus Christ to fillus up with His life.

Of course it meets the need of those watching for His unexpected coming for them.
But it meets the need of the Triune God to have his people filled, saturated, soaked in their souls with the Spirit of Christ.

I think you need to “rehearse” how to express yourself more coherently.

How can we rehearse being taken away to heaven and from temptations we haven't encountered? Tell us how that's done. Do we jump up in the air "FROM whatever the Holy Spirit convicts us of as ungodly," as you put it?

If we are whisked away when convicted of ungodliness, then we don't confront the ungodliness, do we?

Are these the types of posts to be expected from Pretribulationists?