The Need to Practice Rapture

[oikonomia]

I think that we all must live our life every day as if we may die at any moment. This is what really matters.

That is certainly true.
And those who lived and died watching as He exhorted will not have done so in vain.
These will be rewarded with a pre-great tribulation resurrection and rapture.

And some living will join them in a pre-great tribulation rapture.

 

[oikonomia]

I believe this question was asked.

So, what Scripture do you believe shows you that you will be raptured?

If you read carefully my comments you should see that I have no GUARANTEE that I will
be raptured pre-great tribulation. What I have is the warning and the promise
that IF certain expected conditions are fulfilled, I can expect this rapture.

This thread leans towards the meaning of watching. It is not to gaze at the sky.
It is to watch to be abiding in the Lord, enduring through daily trials by means of grace.
His grace is sufficient.

IF the practice of this has built up in the Christian a life-style of vigilance she or he
may expect pre-great tribulation rapture will be their experience.

If they are alive on earth that is a possiblity.
If they died yet lived watching it will not have been in vain.

Some who are "asleep" in Christ as overcomers will have a early pre-great tribulation resurrection and rapture.
Some who are alive at that moment will join them probably around the same time - before the great tribulation.

So let us practice to live watching even if He not come for us in another 100 years. Amen.

 

[Jan001]

This is another passage that puzzles me why it serves as proof of no pre-great tribulation rapture.
Why is it hard to understand that some might possess a crown of life already during the church age?
They just have to be wary that they do not lose it.

I come quickly; hold fast what you have that no one take your crown. (Rev. 3:11)
Look at the previous verse 10 when reading this.

Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth. (v.10)

I believe this prophecy is meant for the early Christians to warn them to continue to hold fast to the Christian faith during their persecution by the Jews. This persecution occurred before the sacking and burning of Jerusalem in AD 70. God said the time is near for these prophecies to be fulfilled and so the time is not far off into the future.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.

Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

This prophecy is not for Christians 2000 plus years later. This prophecy is meant for this specific early Christian generation.



In Daniel's prophecy the time was not near. It was not for that particular time period. Daniel 9:24

Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”


The persecution of the Christians by the Jews:

Mark 13:9 “But take heed to yourselves; for they will deliver you up to councils; and you will be beaten in synagogues; and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear testimony before them.

If these Christians deny Christ as their Savior during this persecution by the Jews, they forfeit their crown.

Revelation 3:11 I come quickly; hold fast what you have that no one take your crown.

Matthew 10:32-34 So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.



The Hour of trial:

In the Book of Revelation, the prophesied hour of trial will be for all people who are living in Jerusalem during the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies as prophesied by Jesus.

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth.

The Roman empire enveloped their whole known world in that time period.

Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel 6 which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing—so among yourselves, from the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth,

God promised to keep them out of the hour of trial. He did as He promised. When they saw the Roman armies (Luke 21:20) building encampments to surround Jerusalem, they fled to Pella and to other places. Not a single Christian life was lost during this siege and destruction of Jerusalem.

 

[Jan001]

I believe this question was asked.

So, what Scripture do you believe shows you that you will be raptured?

If you read carefully my comments you should see that I have no GUARANTEE that I will
be raptured pre-great tribulation. What I have is the warning and the promise
that IF certain expected conditions are fulfilled, I can expect this rapture.

This thread leans towards the meaning of watching. It is not to gaze at the sky.
It is to watch to be abiding in the Lord, enduring through daily trials by means of grace.
His grace is sufficient.

IF the practice of this has built up in the Christian a life-style of vigilance she or he
may expect pre-great tribulation will be their experience.

If they are alive on earth that is a possiblity.
If they died yet lived watching it will not have been in vain.

Some who are "asleep" in Christ as overcomers will have a early pre-great tribulation resurrection and rapture.
Some who are alive at that moment will join them probably around the same time - before the great tribulation.

So let us practice to live watching even if He not come for us in another 100 years. Amen.

Do you have specific Scriptures other than Revelation 3:10 which make you think you may be raptured?

I posted my interpretation of that verse in my previous post.

 

[The Liturgist]

I think that we all must live our life every day as if we may die at any moment. This is what really matters.

Amen to that. Sadly our impending mortality is oft-overlooked.

 

[oikonomia]

I believe this prophecy is meant for the early Christians to warn them to continue to hold fast to the Christian faith during their persecution by the Jews. This persecution occurred before the sacking and burning of Jerusalem in AD 70. God said the time is near for these prophecies to be fulfilled and so the time is not far off into the future.

Remember the OP of this thread.
Of course the need to live abiding in the Lord in the midst of persecutions was to early Christians.
The exhortation to watch is to all Christians throughout the church age.

Lest He come suddenly and find you sleeping.
And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch! (Mark 13:36,37)

His teaching is to all isn't it? Here in 2024 AD His teaching is still to all Christian disciples.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.

When the Lord Jesus appears most people will think it is too soon rather than too late.
This thread is mainly about living such that we would not be put to shame at His appearing.

This need to be ready, watching to live godly did not cease after your period of persecution.
It is applicable even should we Christians be living under prosperity such as many in modern day America.
Our hearts might lose a sense of watchfulness because of the wealth of entertainment and material bounty just as much
as persecution.

There is no time limit on this warning from the First John.
And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming. If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness also has been begotten of Him. (1 John 2:28,29)

How foolish it is to place a statutes of limitation upon this teaching.

Revelation 3:11 I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

This prophecy is not for Christians 2000 plus years later. This prophecy is meant for this specific early Christian generation.

I reject that as swiftly as I would reject a teaching that the resurrection was only meant to a "specific early Christian generation." When Peter asked whether Jesus was speaking only to the disciples standing by the Lord gave no indication of such a limitation.

You also, be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming.
And Peter said, Lord, are You saying this parable to us, or also to all?

And the Lord said, Who then is the faithful and prudent steward,
whom the master will set over his service to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. (Luke 12:40-43)

It is unwise to assume His teaching was limited to just the end of the first century.
It is better all around to take seriously His teaching regardless of how much time has intervened since.

What do you have to lose if you are today's faithful and prudent steward 2,000 some years since?
This word above is in the same tone as Mark 13:37. And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!

In Daniel's prophecy the time was not near. It was not for that particular time period. Daniel 9:24

Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

The Lord Jesus said - You also, be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming. (Luke 12:40)
An error on one side is to assume Christians could calculate this unexpected coming.
An error on the other side would be to assume the time for heeding such a warning has limitations.

You are succumbing to the second error rather than the first.
Perhaps you are succumbing to the second error in over reaction to the first.
You are saying the teaching to be ready applies only to a time you expected has come to a conclusion.

When Satan sends errors into the world he sends them pairs of opposite extremes.
This way men will fall on one side or the other.

There are many threads on prophecy. And I have noticed these arguments made.
Did you ever think that to live godly unto a soon coming Lord meets God's need?

There is no loss what if centuries of vigilant believers died before His parousia.
For the kingdom God needs quality not just quantity for His coming millennial kingdom.
His purpose calls for saturation and sanctification by the Spirit persons fit to co-reign with Him.

So He days the faithful and prudent He will entrust with His possessions.
Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
Truly I tell you that he will set him over all his possessions. (Luke 12:43,44)

What is the warning with which we are cautioned not to neglect santification in service? It is the presumption that
He has delayed His coming because of the elongation of the time.

But if that slave says in his heart, My master is delaying his coming, and begins to beat the male servants and the female servants and to eat and to drink and become drunk, The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers. (Luke 17:45,46)

A similar yet opposite mistake would be to live loosely in endulgence and hypocrisy because, afterall, the date for
vigilance concluded centuries ago.

At any rate it meets the need of the Lord Jesus to have those ready to be set over His possessions at His coming to the earth.

The persecution of the Christians by the Jews:

Mark 13:9 “But take heed to yourselves; for they will deliver you up to councils; and you will be beaten in synagogues; and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear testimony before them.

The same encouragement is totally applicable to modern Christians in non-Jewish places by Gentile government persecutors.
What does a Christian have to lose by applying this encouragement under any kind of persecution?

Why would you rob, let us say, the sanctified teenager who is so opposed by parents hostile to the Gospel?
Have they no need to "bear testimony before them?"

This thread highlights the need to live so as to bear the testimony of Jesus.
It is quite marvelous that believers be strengthened by Mark 13:9 before other "councils" and other religious groups or government officials hostil to the witnesses of Jesus Christ.

If these Christians deny Christ as their Savior during this persecution by the Jews, they forfeit their crown.

To forfeit the crown is to forfeit this kind of reward rather than eternal redemption.
Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
Truly I tell you that he will set him over all his possessions. (Luke 12:43,44)

That blessedness might be forfeit by believers in any generation until He comes.
Furthermore, His promise that it would be given in that hour what to say, is really the result
of living such that His Spirit may spontaneously dispense wisdom on the spot.

But when they deliver you up, do not be anxious about how or what you should speak, for it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; For you are not the ones speaking, but the Spirit of your Father is the One speaking in you. (Matt. 10:19,20)

Live unto the Lord daily so as to be ready for the Holy Spirit to flow out in spontaneous verbal reaction to pressure.
Why neglect to live sanctified lives because you expect no Jewish persecution?

You see you have no case to oppose the OP of practice to be taken away suddenly by the Lord.
If your objection is that we need not heed first century teaching of Jesus but live godly ANYWAY, then
you agree with the OP. It is win / win discussion. It meets not only our need to be permeated with the Spirit.
It meets God's need also that we be transformed into the image of His Son for His eternal purpose.

Revelation 3:11 I come quickly; hold fast what you have that no one take your crown.

Matthew 10:32-34 So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

All the more reason to practice the moment by moment living in His presence.
What about Matt. 10:32-34 makes superfluous to "Watch?"

The Lord can deny reward and be true to eternal redemption you know?

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the chosen ones,
that they themselves also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Faithful is the word: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
If we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny us;
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. (2 tim. 2:10-13)

Here if we endure the reward is to reign with Him.
But if we are faithless He remains faithful because He cannot deny Himself.

God has time to perfect the late blooming child.
He cannot deny Himself that this one, though unenduring and unfaithful, is still His eternally redeemed child.

Christ can cause some to receive reward in addition to being saved.
And Christ can causes some to "suffer loss" losing reward though still being saved.

The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one’s work, of what sort it is.
If anyone’s work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone’s work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:13-15)

1.) Some Christians down through the centuries will recieve a reward in addition to being saved.
2.) Other Christians down through the centuries will not be rewarded, suffering loss, yet will still be saved.

He cannot deny Himself.

For length's sake I must leave off replies to other comments to latter.

 

[oikonomia]

The Hour of trial:

In the Book of Revelation, the prophesied hour of trial will be for all people who are living in Jerusalem during the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies as prophesied by Jesus.

Does the phrase "the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth"
only applies to the city Jerusalem?

[T]he whole inhabtied earth would mean a wider geographic area than just Jerusalem.
That is why He said it that way. And we should hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.

To the disciples as to their status as national Jewish members of Israel this is completely relevant.
But the general teaching to watch is to their status as also constituents of the church.

Robert Govette made a good case for analyzing the book of Hebrews as probably specifically written to
believing Jewish disciples of Jesus in the city of Jerusalem. That doesn't mean we believers
elsewhere should not devour the healthy, nourishing and edifying teaching of the book of Hebrews.

Likewise, it is understood that Jesus' words at times had a colloquial aspect.
But He cautions us Take heed therefore how you hear (luke 8:18a)

It is no surprise that a colloquial tone of Matthew 24, Luke 12,18 exists.
The need to watch is the same with the churches in Revelation 3.

To the church in Sardis and to all of us who have an ear Christ says.
Become watchful and establish the things which remain, which were about to die;
for I have found none of your works completed before My God. (Rev. 3:2)
Sardis is not Jerusalem. The need to watch has not diminshed or changed has it?

If therefore you will not watch, I will come as a thief, and you shall by no means know at what hour I will come upon you. (Rev. 3:3)

Your theory implies that only in Jerusalem when it is surrounded by armies the Jewish disciples were to watch.
But His letter to Sardis is teaching exactly the same, allbeit no mention of attacking Roman armies.

The attack against the church is there regardless in terms of spiritual deadness.
The reputation of being living they had. The reality to justify the reputation Christ did not see.

These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: I know your works, that you have a name that you are living, and yet you are dead. (Rev. 3:1)

Become watchful and establish the things which remain, which were about to die; for I have found none of your works completed before My God.

Where is the thought "You have no need to be watchful because afterall Sardis is not Jerusalem surrounded by the Roman armies."
The spiritual things God did accomplish with them were "about to die". So this is a watchfulness for life against spiritual death.

The church in Sardis was warned to watch. Or He would come upon their unwatchful apathy unexpected to their shame.
If therefore you will not watch, I will come as a thief, and you shall by no means know at what hour I will come upon you. (3:3b)

Spiritual death is dirty and defiling in the eyes of God. And Christ acknowledges that some among these unwary ones
had not defiled their garments with the defilement of spirirtual death.
But you have a few names in Sardis who have not defiled their garments,
and they will walk with Me in white because they are worthy. (vs. 4)

The exhortation to watch (not the clouds) but to remain undefiled by death is just as much an incentive.
It is not only the cause of Jerusalem surrounded by armies that should prompt the Christians to watch.
We are to watch for divine life. We are to watch to remember how life came to us and remain in revival.
We are to watch that what the Spirit has begun in us He is able to complete, not leaving it incomplete.

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth.

The Roman empire enveloped their whole known world in that time period.

And the armies of Antichrist will harrass the area of the ancient Roman Empire as well.

The watching to the church in brotherly love - Philadelphia is watching to build the church with ourselves
as living stones. That is why the reward for watching is to become a living pillar in the living temple of God.
I come quickly; hold fast what you have that no one take your crown.

He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, (Rev. 3:11,12a)

The temple of God is the church, especially the practical church life in many cities like Corinth or Philadelphia.
Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you. (1 Cor. 3:16,17)

To wander in and out of the living bulding of God is what we need to watch for.
The reward to the overcomers in Philadelphia is not only early rapture
but also being transformed is to never again go out of the temple.
Rather it is to be suitable to be a permenent standing pillar in the temple,
immovable, supportive, possessed by God's temple and God.

He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

So watching is related to His eternal purpose the conclusion of His work - New Jerusalem.

Go back to Matthew 24:40-42 Aand realize this watching is absolutely related to His eternal purpose
to build the church of the living God with living stones to be immovable pillars going no more out.

At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:40-42)

I don't think you see clearly that this being taken for watching meets the need of God.
I think you imagine such a hope is only for the need of Christians to be taken out of great trial.

I'll say more to this latter.

Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel 6 which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing—so among yourselves, from the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth,

There is nothing in that passage which nullifies the benefit of watching that the Lord WITHIN will one day come also UPON from'
without. It establishes that to watch includes bearing fruit for God and causing the good news to grow.

Again, refer to Enoch. In the midst of a declining society this man obtained testimony he was well pleasing to God.
His priorities were with God in heaven. His reputation caused them to notice that he had disappeared and was not found.

By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had translated him. For before his translation he obtained the testimony that he had been well pleasing to God. (Heb. 11:5)

Your reference to Colossians 1:5-6 establishes the point of my OP.
And in chapter 3 the establishment is even stronger.

If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth.
For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory. (Col. 3:1-4)

Now go againt to say, Luke 17. Isn't this the same. Living at work and even sleeping at night
as our minds on Christ and His things above.

Whoever seeks to preserve his soul-life will lose it, and whoever loses it will preserve it alive.
I tell you, In that night there will be two on one bed; the one will be taken and the other will be left.
There will be two women grinding together; the one will be taken but the other will be left.
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left. (Luke 17:33-36)

Here Luke adds the vigilance of even resting at night. That is we have lived during the day
so much in the spirit that even when sleeping our hearts are still heaven directed.
We are use to having our life hidden in Christ in God day and night.

God promised to keep them out of the hour of trial. He did as He promised. When they saw the Roman armies (Luke 21:20) building encampments to surround Jerusalem, they fled to Pella and to other places. Not a single Christian life was lost during this siege and destruction of Jerusalem.

God's promise to keep them out of the world-wide hour of trial is His reward also to solidly
build them into the living temple of God the church. She culminates in the Bride the New Jerusalem.
So this rapture more importantly meets the romantic and building need of Christ and not just our need to escape the GT.

He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (vs. 12,13)

Moreover notice that the call to hear is not just to those living in the city of Jerusalem.
It is to all saints everywhere who have an ear to hear Christ's Spirit speaking to the churches.

 

[JulieB67]

That was Christ's exhortation.

Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:42)
See? It is the teaching out of the mouth of the Lord Jesus.

We are to watch for the signs he laid out. That way the day does not overtake one as a thief as it will many.

For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming. (v.44)
See? It is not the daydream of those wanting to avoid trouble. It is the teaching of the Lord Jesus.

That's because most of the world will think the savior is already here. The true Christ returns afterwards. As Paul states people will be thinking peace and safety (false ) and then bam, destruction.

At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. (Matt. 24:40)
The Christian taken is the one living so as to be free from the hand of the evil one.
The Christian left needs to learn the hard lesson of living to be free from the hand of the evil one.

We do not want to be the first ones taken. We are to remain in the field working. As Christ states it will be just like the days of Noah. The flood "took" the wicked away.

We will be fine if we just heed the warnings by Christ and Paul and watch for the signs if it should happen in one's lifetime. That's what Christ is stating and he and Paul give strict warnings on this subject.

 

[oikonomia]

We are to watch for the signs he laid out. That way the day does not overtake one as a thief as it will many.

That is too superfiscial an understanding. It has little moral relevance.
This kind of watching only for outward signs is mostly out of curiosity.

The watching the Lord speaks of is about the quality of godly and righteous living. It is to watch that we are in the Spirit,
soberminded meaning business to walk with God.
As in -

Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. (Matt. 26:41)

But the end of all things has drawn near. Therefore be sober-minded and be sober unto prayers. (1 Peter 4:7)

By means of all prayer and petition, praying at every time in spirit and watching unto this in all perseverance and petition concerning all the saints, (Eph. 6:18)

We do not want to be the first ones taken. We are to remain in the field working. As Christ states it will be just like the days of Noah. The flood "took" the wicked away.

For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day in which Noah entered into the ark,

And they did not know that judgment was coming until the flood came and took all away,
so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.

The interpretation you propose believes "the flood came and took all away" is a type of "one is taken".
But the ark of Noah is clearly a type of Christ.
So "Noah enterred into the ark" corresponds to "one is taken."

The watching is to live walking with God as Noah did so to be counted worthy
to enter into the saving provision God provides the godly.

These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generations; and Noah walked with God. (Gen. 6:9)

 

[oikonomia]

We do not want to be the first ones taken. We are to remain in the field working. As Christ states it will be just like the days of Noah. The flood "took" the wicked away.

Why should this be the Christians' preferred attitude?
In your own words please explain this.

Have you noticed the Lord's need to take the overcoming watchers somewhere ?
You know they asked the Lord were these taken ones were to be taken.

Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.
And they answered and said to Him, Where, Lord? And He said to them,
Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered together. (Luke 17:36,37)

You see the taken ones have important service for the Lord to perform.
The overcomers in heaven come down with Jesus latter as an accompanying army.

And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. (Rev.19:14,15)

So you see that Jesus would take those prepared is more than escape from the GT.
It is also to come WITH Him as birds of prey, like vultures to devour with Him the enemies of God.

Because they have lived so as to overcome in spiritual warfare on earth He double rewards
them. On one hand taking them out of the hour of world-wide trial He intends.
And on the other hand to form them into a Gideon like army of victors to win the battle with Him.
And this is a service for the church, the kingdom, and the world.

In your next post tell me which you think is more likely.

1.) The disciples would ask where the punished unwatching unbelievers would be taken.
2.) The disciples would ask where the watching believers would be taken.

I believe they would be more interested in WHERE the watching Christian taken would be taken.
I don't believe they would question the Lord about where one to be punished would be taken.

Where, Lord? And He said to them,
Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered together. (Luke 17:36,37)

See below more.

 

[oikonomia]

Where, Lord? And He said to them,
Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered together. (Luke 17:36,37)

In the context,verse 15 and 21 imply that at the end of this church age Antichrist will
cause the 3.5 year great tribulation. To God Antichrist is a stinking corpse of death
which needs to be judged and destroyed.

All mankind from Adam are dead (1 Cor. 15:22). Antichrist and his armies that
war directly against Christ at Armageddon (Rev, 19:17-21) are as the climax
of the rebellion of the dead unsaved Adamic humanity. In the Lord's eyes they
are at the end as a stinking corpse good for nothing but the vultures appetite.

In the Scripture both the Lord and those who trust in Him are likened to the eagle (Exodus 19:4; Deut. 32:11; Isa. 40:31).
The swift destroying armies are likened to flying eagles.

Jehovah will bring against you a nation from far away, from the end of the earth, like the eagle that swoops down, a nation whose tongue you will not understand, (Deut. 28:49)

A trumpet to your lips! / Like an eagle he comes against the house of Jehovah, / Because they have trespassed My covenant / And have transgressed against My law. (Hosea 8:1)

The Lord speaks of His accompanying army as devouring birds gathered together.
It reminds us of the picture of the enemies of God being eaten by the birds after their total defeat.

And I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, Come here; gather yourselves to the great dinner of God,
That you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of generals and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free and slave and small and great. (Rev. 19:17,18)

Ultimately after the early pre-great tribulation overcomers are raptured to the third heaven, they then
after about 3.5 years come down with Christ as His accompanying army and all the enemies of Christ
waring against Him slain "vultures' food" of Him and His vanquishing armies.

These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and they who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them. (Rev. 17:14)

 

[JulieB67]

That is too superfiscial an understanding. It has little moral relevance.
This kind of watching only for outward signs is mostly out of curiosity.

Matthew 24 is the subject of Christ's return and the end of this age. The disciples asks for signs and he lays out all the signs before his return. Those are the signs we watch for as watchmen. And no, it's not mostly out of curiosity.Christ gives out very strict warnings on deception about this subject. He states if we had known when the thief would come, we would not have suffered our house to have been broken up -so he states "watch"

Paul states the same thing. Watch so that day doesn't overtake us a thief. Meaning we will be here during that day -Day of the Lord/Day of Christ. And with that day people will be thinking peace and safety (false) and then bam destruction. People are thinking peace and safety because they will believe that the savior is already here. But he's the fake. That's what we are to watch for. Yes, one should always live our lives as righteously as possible but we are to watch for the signs.

So that's what I will prepare for if it should happen in my lifetime. As should all watchmen.

Why should this be the Christians' preferred attitude?

Because the first ones taken ( in this verse taken in the Greek is to associate oneself with) are obviously taken in by Antichrist/Satan. Taken in that verse does not mean removed from the earth, there's a different Greek word for taken in that instance.

The first ones are taken in the flood, the second will be a flood as well but a flood of lies. He tries this flood on Christians-

Revelation 12:15 "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

It doesn't work but this flood of deception and lies will engulf the entire world at that point.

Paul states that's what the gospel armor is for-to be able to stand in "the evil day". It doesn't state every day. Same message as Christ's. We are to keep standing and enduring to the end. So no, I don't want to be the first one taken. I want to be the one "left" standing and enduring to the end, waiting for the true Christ.

 

[oikonomia]

Matthew 24 is the subject of Christ's return and the end of this age. The disciples asks for signs and he lays out all the signs before his return. Those are the signs we watch for as watchmen.

You are quite right that He said to them So also you, when you see all these things, know that it is near, at the doors. (Matt. 24:33)
So it was too much for me to say He expects no watching for outward events.
I agree on some watching for world events by the disciples.

And no, it's not mostly out of curiosity.Christ gives out very strict warnings on deception about this subject. He states if we had known when the thief would come, we would not have suffered our house to have been broken up -so he states "watch"

How about also the watching within for the morning star to arise in our hearts?
This is something more subjective.

And we have the prophetic word made more firm, to which you do well to give heed as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; ( 2 Pet. 1:19)

Here we have the prophetic word and something of life as a morning star arising in our hearts.
Christ will return as the blazing Sun of righteousness over the whole world, especially for Israel.

For indeed the day comes, burning like a furnace, and all the proud ones and all the ones who act wickedly will be stubble; and the coming day will set them ablaze, says Jehovah of hosts, so that it will not leave them root or branch.
But unto you who fear My name will the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in His wings, and you will go forth and leap about like well-fed calves. (Mal. 4:1,2)

Now that is Christ's return in extreme external manifestation.
But the Christians should be sober to notice the morning star arising within preceding His outward manifestation.

You know if you are not awake early in the day before sunrise you will not see the morning star.
At the darkest time before sunrise the morning star is seen only to those who are wide awake from the night.

This is a watching for His inward shining. This is to be guided more by His inward light in a dark world.
It is a prize to be rewarded with such awareness of the inward morning star before the hour of the blaing sunrise.

And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
And he will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father;

And to him I will give the morning star. (Rev. 2:26-28)

Do you see it? Coupled with the reward to be co-kings with Him shepherding the nations in His kingdom is
the reward of seeing His return as the morning star before the blazing sunrise.

So while I see some watching for outward events I emphasize also the internal sensativity to Jesus Christ as
the morning star arising. For this we should watch.

Paul states the same thing. Watch so that day doesn't overtake us a thief.

Indeed. But look at the internal things of living we are to watch for that they are healthy in the Lord.

So then let us not sleep, as the rest do, but let us watch and be sober.
For those who sleep, sleep during the night, and those who get drunk are drunk during the night;
But since we are of the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love and a helmet, the hope of salvation. (1 Thess. 5:6-8)

These are exhortation related to morality. Our morality is Christ within us lived out.
Christ makes us awake rather than asleep. Christ is our sobermindedness.
Christ is our sobriety that we be not befuddled and drunken by the world.
Christ saves us from a drunken stupor of indugence such that we are in the "night" of worldliness.

These contain exhortations to DO something rather than be passively curious.
We have to "put on" the armor of spiritual warfare - the breastplate of faith and love.
We must take Christ to protect our heart.
We must take Christ to protect our mind witha a helmet, the hope of salvation

So this watching is altogether a matter of godly living. To watch here is to live Christ.

How about I am astute to notice world events yet passive and neglegient toward living Christ?
That is not what He wants. In this light read again.

Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.
But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch
the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.

For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming. (Matt. 24:42-44)

Meaning we will be here during that day -Day of the Lord/Day of Christ. And with that day people will be thinking peace and safety (false) and then bam destruction. People are thinking peace and safety because they will believe that the savior is already here. But he's the fake. That's what we are to watch for. Yes, one should always live our lives as righteously as possible but we are to watch for the signs.

Are you saying that Christians should watch more for the coming of Antichrist than the coming of our dear Lord Jesus?
Antichrist is garbage. Christ is our Bridegroom.

What bride expecting to be married is more intent on gazing at the garbage that needs to be taken out?
I tell you on the honeymoon she may say "Dear, would you mind taking out the garbage."

Now we are to notice the world situation. But much more we are to watch that we are ready to meet our lovely Bridegroom.

So that's what I will prepare for if it should happen in my lifetime. As should all watchmen.

Because the first ones taken ( in this verse taken in the Greek is to associate oneself with) are obviously taken in by Antichrist/Satan. Taken in that verse does not mean removed from the earth, there's a different Greek word for taken in that instance.

I would urge you to reconsider this. Look at the example of Lot and his wife.
Remember Lot’s wife. (Luke 17:32)
It was not that Lot and family were left and the people of Sodom were taken someplace to be judged.
No, Lot and his family went out of the place to be judged.

But on the day in which Lot went out from Sodom, (Luke 17:28a)

Not only so. But the lesson of Lot's wife was that it was not enough to go out physically.
Her HEART was not to be left in Sodom. You know her backward glance indicated that
though she physically was removed her longing was back there with what she left.

You know she turned into a pillar of salt - a monument of shame.

So the lesson is that the Christian must first inwardly leave the world in their heart.
They set their minds on the things above where Christ is.
The Lord will know who has thier treasure where He is.
And He will know who in heart really does not want to be taken . . . YET.

So to us His disciples -

Remember Lot’s wife.
Whoever seeks to preserve his soul-life will lose it, and whoever loses it will preserve it alive.

I tell you, In that night there will be two on one bed; the one will be taken and the other will be left.
There will be two women grinding together; the one will be taken but the other will be left.
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left. (Luke 17:32-36)

Now if you think the one LEFT is more like Lot and family, go ahead.
I am running with the one TAKEN corresponds to Lot taken OUT of the place to be judged.

Likewise, even as it happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; But on the day in which Lot WENT OUT OF SODOM, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

It will be in the same way on the day in which the Son of Man is revealed. (v.37)

The first ones are taken in the flood, the second will be a flood as well but a flood of lies. He tries this flood on Christians-

I cannot argue that a flood will not occur of misfortune and misinformation - lies and lying wonders.
All the more the need to practice having our hearts swooped away from deception daily.

This we can have by turning our heart again back to the Lord.
This we can practice by praising Him, thanking Him, speaking love to Him and to others, and paying attention
both to the lamp of the prophetic word and the morning star of the Spirit rising in our hearts.

I will teach that the one TAKEN is TAKEN OUT into safety.
And to be LEFT is not totally hopeless. But some hard lessons of the GT will be experienced.
If many Christians deemed perculiar in thier love for Jesus suddenly cannot be found the rest will
immediately know that they had missed the early rapture.

They then see Antichrist manifested. Do you think these believers will love the world anymore?
This will be the revival that many hope for. But it is better to be practicing revival in heart now.
This is the watching which will result in the thief of Jesus Christ stealing AWAY the precious things.

The thief does not LEAVE all the precious things and TAKE away the other things. He does the reverse.

But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. (Matt. 24;43)

Revelation 12:15 "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

This sign you well interpret. But did you notice that part of her that was within her was born and raptured?

And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

This is a remnant, a minority like Gideon's small army of 300. The majority that were not watching to abide in the Lord are left
on the earth. They are nourished with hope. But they must pass through the persecution of the Antichrist.
It is right there JulieB67. The woman who brought forth the raptured man-child is left on earth 3.5 years.

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. (v.6)

It doesn't work but this flood of deception and lies will engulf the entire world at that point.

Paul states that's what the gospel armor is for-to be able to stand in "the evil day". It doesn't state every day. Same message as Christ's. We are to keep standing and enduring to the end. So no, I don't want to be the first one taken. I want to be the one "left" standing and enduring to the end, waiting for the true Christ.

I agree. But those left standing to meet Christ missed an opportunity. Now they must meet Him with
some hardship to extract their hearts from the love of the world.

Now the Lord said we should pray to be worthy to escape these things which are coming to pass.
So early rapture is the response of obedience to His command.

But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man. (Luke 21:36)

The raptured ones as FIRSTFRUITS stand before the Son of Man on a heavenly Mt. Zion.
So prophecy has it that a remnant will be counted worthy to escape the GT and stand before the Son of Man in heaven.

These ripened early. The crop left is the HARVEST reaped at the end of the trial that comes upon the whole earth.

Firstfruits - a remnant taken to heaven before the 3.5 years. (Rev. 14:1-5)
Harvest - the majority taken at the last trumpet around the end of the 3.5 years. (Rev. 14:14-16)

Some left on the earth will become overcomers and martyrs who die under Antichrist's persecution.

Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
And I heard a voice out of heaven, saying, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; for their works follow with them. (Rev. 14:12,13)

 

[Timtofly]

What are the raptured wearing? Their birthday suits?

What did those created on the 6th day have on?

Adam and Eve even tried wearing plant based clothing, but God provided something better.

Seems God will provide His own wardrobe, no? God does not seem to require human ingenuity when it comes to clothing.

Why did Adam and Eve even think they needed clothing? Many just think it did not matter, but obviously being blind to something is not the same thing as no longer having something on over the physical body.

"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked."

Is this a figure of speech that explicitly tells us something was different or did they literally not see each other? We know they could see each other, because:

"And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

They already knew they were naked and saw that without shame. Now after disobedience they could see? Or is it that now they were naked in this state of death, and shame was part of that death?

At the point when the church on earth is caught up in the air, they are no longer in a state of death. They would not have the shame caused by death. So do we "looked clothed" while in heaven or does God have a literal wardrobe for those in Paradise?

BTW: Most people don't even think there is a physical body in Paradise. But how can they look like they are waiving palm branches and have on white garments if nothing is physical in physical Paradise?

Why would God be running a virtual reality world in heaven? Humans did not invent nor create physical reality. God did. Humans have invented and forced many virtual reality situations onto God's existing physical reality. Perhaps Satan's deception this whole time has been virtual reality? Satan makes us see and believe what is not even there.

Paul always phrased being made alive as being clothed upon.

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked."

Once made alive, we are no longer naked but clothed upon. Physical clothing is just a bandaid compared to being made alive.

 

[Jan001]

Remember the OP of this thread.
Of course the need to live abiding in the Lord in the midst of persecutions was to early Christians.
The exhortation to watch is to all Christians throughout the church age.

Lest He come suddenly and find you sleeping.
And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch! (Mark 13:36,37)

His teaching is to all isn't it? Here in 2024 AD His teaching is still to all Christian disciples.

When the Lord Jesus appears most people will think it is too soon rather than too late.
This thread is mainly about living such that we would not be put to shame at His appearing.

This need to be ready, watching to live godly did not cease after your period of persecution.
It is applicable even should we Christians be living under prosperity such as many in modern day America.
Our hearts might lose a sense of watchfulness because of the wealth of entertainment and material bounty just as much
as persecution.

There is no time limit on this warning from the First John.
And now, little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming. If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness also has been begotten of Him. (1 John 2:28,29)

Like I've said before, the day of my death is what I need to be concerned about. I think that will happen before Jesus' second coming.

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,

The rich man and Lazarus and Judas were judged immediately after their deaths and then they each went to their own places.

Luke 16:19-31, Acts 1:25

 

[Jan001]

Does the phrase "the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth"
only applies to the city Jerusalem?

[T]he whole inhabtied earth would mean a wider geographic area than just Jerusalem.
That is why He said it that way. And we should hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

To the disciples as to their status as national Jewish members of Israel this is completely relevant.
But the general teaching to watch is to their status as also constituents of the church.

Robert Govette made a good case for analyzing the book of Hebrews as probably specifically written to
believing Jewish disciples of Jesus in the city of Jerusalem. That doesn't mean we believers
elsewhere should not devour the healthy, nourishing and edifying teaching of the book of Hebrews.

Likewise, it is understood that Jesus' words at times had a colloquial aspect.
But He cautions us Take heed therefore how you hear (luke 8:18a)

It is no surprise that a colloquial tone of Matthew 24, Luke 12,18 exists.
The need to watch is the same with the churches in Revelation 3.

To the church in Sardis and to all of us who have an ear Christ says.
Become watchful and establish the things which remain, which were about to die;
for I have found none of your works completed before My God. (Rev. 3:2)
Sardis is not Jerusalem. The need to watch has not diminshed or changed has it?

If therefore you will not watch, I will come as a thief, and you shall by no means know at what hour I will come upon you. (Rev. 3:3)

Your theory implies that only in Jerusalem when it is surrounded by armies the Jewish disciples were to watch.
But His letter to Sardis is teaching exactly the same, allbeit no mention of attacking Roman armies.

The attack against the church is there regardless in terms of spiritual deadness.
The reputation of being living they had. The reality to justify the reputation Christ did not see.

These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: I know your works, that you have a name that you are living, and yet you are dead. (Rev. 3:1)

Become watchful and establish the things which remain, which were about to die; for I have found none of your works completed before My God.

Where is the thought "You have no need to be watchful because afterall Sardis is not Jerusalem surrounded by the Roman armies."
The spiritual things God did accomplish with them were "about to die". So this is a watchfulness for life against spiritual death.

The church in Sardis was warned to watch. Or He would come upon their unwatchful apathy unexpected to their shame.
If therefore you will not watch, I will come as a thief, and you shall by no means know at what hour I will come upon you. (3:3b)

Spiritual death is dirty and defiling in the eyes of God. And Christ acknowledges that some among these unwary ones
had not defiled their garments with the defilement of spirirtual death.
But you have a few names in Sardis who have not defiled their garments,
and they will walk with Me in white because they are worthy. (vs. 4)

The exhortation to watch (not the clouds) but to remain undefiled by death is just as much an incentive.
It is not only the cause of Jerusalem surrounded by armies that should prompt the Christians to watch.
We are to watch for divine life. We are to watch to remember how life came to us and remain in revival.
We are to watch that what the Spirit has begun in us He is able to complete, not leaving it incomplete.


And the armies of Antichrist will harrass the area of the ancient Roman Empire as well.

The watching to the church in brotherly love - Philadelphia is watching to build the church with ourselves
as living stones. That is why the reward for watching is to become a living pillar in the living temple of God.
I come quickly; hold fast what you have that no one take your crown.

He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, (Rev. 3:11,12a)

The temple of God is the church, especially the practical church life in many cities like Corinth or Philadelphia.
Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and such are you. (1 Cor. 3:16,17)

To wander in and out of the living bulding of God is what we need to watch for.
The reward to the overcomers in Philadelphia is not only early rapture
but also being transformed is to never again go out of the temple.
Rather it is to be suitable to be a permenent standing pillar in the temple,
immovable, supportive, possessed by God's temple and God.

He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

So watching is related to His eternal purpose the conclusion of His work - New Jerusalem.

Go back to Matthew 24:40-42 Aand realize this watching is absolutely related to His eternal purpose
to build the church of the living God with living stones to be immovable pillars going no more out.

At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:40-42)

I don't think you see clearly that this being taken for watching meets the need of God.
I think you imagine such a hope is only for the need of Christians to be taken out of great trial.

I'll say more to this latter.


There is nothing in that passage which nullifies the benefit of watching that the Lord WITHIN will one day come also UPON from'
without. It establishes that to watch includes bearing fruit for God and causing the good news to grow.

Again, refer to Enoch. In the midst of a declining society this man obtained testimony he was well pleasing to God.
His priorities were with God in heaven. His reputation caused them to notice that he had disappeared and was not found.

By faith Enoch was translated so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had translated him. For before his translation he obtained the testimony that he had been well pleasing to God. (Heb. 11:5)

Your reference to Colossians 1:5-6 establishes the point of my OP.
And in chapter 3 the establishment is even stronger.

If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth.
For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory. (Col. 3:1-4)

Now go againt to say, Luke 17. Isn't this the same. Living at work and even sleeping at night
as our minds on Christ and His things above.

Whoever seeks to preserve his soul-life will lose it, and whoever loses it will preserve it alive.
I tell you, In that night there will be two on one bed; the one will be taken and the other will be left.
There will be two women grinding together; the one will be taken but the other will be left.
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left. (Luke 17:33-36)

Here Luke adds the vigilance of even resting at night. That is we have lived during the day
so much in the spirit that even when sleeping our hearts are still heaven directed.
We are use to having our life hidden in Christ in God day and night.

God's promise to keep them out of the world-wide hour of trial is His reward also to solidly
build them into the living temple of God the church. She culminates in the Bride the New Jerusalem.
So this rapture more importantly meets the romantic and building need of Christ and not just our need to escape the GT.

He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (vs. 12,13)

Moreover notice that the call to hear is not just to those living in the city of Jerusalem.
It is to all saints everywhere who have an ear to hear Christ's Spirit speaking to the churches.

I say Jesus' prophecies in Matthew were for the early Christians living in "this" generation which means "their" generation.

"This" generation link.

Can these things be fulfilled again at a later time 2000 or more years later? Yes, they can.

 

[Jan001]

What did those created on the 6th day have on?

Adam and Eve even tried wearing plant based clothing, but God provided something better.

Seems God will provide His own wardrobe, no? God does not seem to require human ingenuity when it comes to clothing.

Why did Adam and Eve even think they needed clothing? Many just think it did not matter, but obviously being blind to something is not the same thing as no longer having something on over the physical body.

"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked."

Is this a figure of speech that explicitly tells us something was different or did they literally not see each other? We know they could see each other, because:

"And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."

They already knew they were naked and saw that without shame. Now after disobedience they could see? Or is it that now they were naked in this state of death, and shame was part of that death?

At the point when the church on earth is caught up in the air, they are no longer in a state of death. They would not have the shame caused by death. So do we "looked clothed" while in heaven or does God have a literal wardrobe for those in Paradise?

BTW: Most people don't even think there is a physical body in Paradise. But how can they look like they are waiving palm branches and have on white garments if nothing is physical in physical Paradise?

Why would God be running a virtual reality world in heaven? Humans did not invent nor create physical reality. God did. Humans have invented and forced many virtual reality situations onto God's existing physical reality. Perhaps Satan's deception this whole time has been virtual reality? Satan makes us see and believe what is not even there.

Paul always phrased being made alive as being clothed upon.

"For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked."

Once made alive, we are no longer naked but clothed upon. Physical clothing is just a bandaid compared to being made alive.

Before Jesus' death, He made the following claims:

Luke 22:15-18 And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I tell you I shall not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves; 18 for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

At the time of Jesus' death, He drank of the fruit of the vine:

John 19:29-30 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

After Jesus' resurrection, He ate broiled fish:

Luke 24:40-43 And while they still disbelieved for joy, and wondered, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate before them.

Perhaps we will all wear different colored robes and sashes in heaven. We will be eating and drinking real foods and beverages in heaven. We will have perfected immortal physical bodies after our resurrection from the dead.

 

[Timtofly]

Before Jesus' death, He made the following claims:

Luke 22:15-18 And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I tell you I shall not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves; 18 for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

At the time of Jesus' death, He drank of the fruit of the vine:

John 19:29-30 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

After Jesus' resurrection, He ate broiled fish:

Luke 24:40-43 And while they still disbelieved for joy, and wondered, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate before them.

Perhaps we will all wear different colored robes and sashes in heaven. We will be eating and drinking real foods and beverages in heaven. We will have perfected immortal physical bodies after our resurrection from the dead.

They already have permanent incorruptible physical bodies in Paradise. That has been a fact since the thief on the Cross entered Paradise that day Jesus said it is finished.


Death was finished for all those in Christ. The entire OT redeemed came out of their graves all over the earth. They all ascended to Paradise on Sunday morning with Jesus.

Paul points out no one missed that resurrection. They would all enter Paradise upon physical death.

That generation was the generation that would never taste death, by entering sheol or Abraham's bosom ever again.

"It is finished" means it was finished.

 

[oikonomia]

Like I've said before, the day of my death is what I need to be concerned about. I think that will happen before Jesus' second coming.

Can you explain why this need to develop the habit of walking with the Lord (watching) is
effected by this? I don't understand how we being alive for the paruosia or being deceased at the
paruousia makes any difference.

Why should the day of your death before the parousia hinder you from living a watching life as He
commands?

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,

The rich man and Lazarus and Judas were judged immediately after their deaths and then they each went to their own places.

Luke 16:19-31, Acts 1:25

Why should that matter to developing the healthy lifestyle of "watching" ?
It seems to me a non-issue to the exhortation to watch for we know not the time of His parousia.

I suspect you are not saying "Well, because I probably will die before any such rapture would occur, I
need not practice to live daily unto the Lord - watching."

Tell me if and how you are hurt by practicing a sanctified watching life if you don't agree to a future sudden
pre-GT rapture. What do you have to lose if you live watching as He commanded those disciples?

Let's say the Lord Jesus thought "This warning has nothing to do with Jan001 centuries into the future of this moment."

However He did say - And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch! (Mark 13;37)

So then the OP is of no practical purpose for you ??

 

[keras]

I view 'watching', as being aware of and prepared for all that is Prophesied to happen in our future.
If people like to believe they will be suddenly taken up to live in heaven and to avoid any trials and tribulations, then why bother watching and even bother trying to understand any of the end times Prophesies?
This is the tragedy of the rapture theory; people are complacent and careless about what God has so comprehensively given us thru His Prophets.

So when disaster strikes, when the earth shudders and is moved from its place, Isaiah 13:13, when fire envelopes the world, Zephaniah 3:8 and powerful storms, tsunamis and thick darkness comes, Joel 2:30-33, and we are all still here on planet earth, will those who imagined they would be raptured, still trust the Lord and maintain their faith?