Is it important to keep the Sabbath?

[Bob S]

Here is what you said.

The period says it all Gary. There was no intention of trying to combine the two thoughts. It seems like you are just "picking" instead of realizing there is a problem with trying to use Isaiah's rendition of the New Earth. And the fact that I have not found anyone that includes verse 24 when trying to use prove we will be observing the old covenant Sabbath in Heaven. You want prove we are to observe a day, but provide very little to prove we must.

I was speaking about OT rimes when I asked you how many chosen people you would expect God to have. The Israelites/Jews were to tell the world about God.

God knew, before the foundation of the Earth, that His chosen would be in continuous rebellion and would never share their Savior. There escape from slavery was a miracle that they should have used to help Gentiles to accept the only true God..

As to how many Israelites during the old covenant era will be saved, all I know is that they like us were sinners. God knows every heart and it was not what they did it is what Jesus did for ALL mankind.

I can see why you're so bitter against SDAs as you left the church during it's legalistic period.

You have that wrong. I love my SDA friends and family. In 1888 the brethren knew Ellen White was a farce. Many of the finest Christian men had to leave Adventism because of her continuous false visions and my way ort he highway attitude. How the church has tried to cover-up D. M. Canright's book revealing Ellen and the doctrines is also a farce.

She has led a wonderful group of people down the wrong path. I just wish my brothers in Christ would open their eyes, read what others have revealed and take a much closer look at what they have been taught.

The denomination rejected the message of righteousness by faith in 1888. God is now bringing it back to this message

God is bringing it back??? The church had its beginning in legalism. Ellen was a legalist through and through. Oh she claimed to have seen the Light, but the damage is done. The only way the church will ever recover is to burn every sentence she ever wrote and really depend on scripture for doctrine. It seems like that ever happening is like chasing rainbows. I really feel sorry for all of you that have been caught up in this controlling web.

Justification by faith isn't about forgiveness alone. It's about the power of God to change lives and bring us back into who He created humanity to be.

It all starts out with the greatest command ever given, LOVE. 1Jn3:19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

We are sinners saved by our works, no saved by the Grace of Jesus. Jn 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 17: 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Eternal life is about knowing God on a deep personal level as expressed in the entire chapter in Jesus' prayer.

Here are a couple quotes from Ellen White that go along with the entire chapter.

.


The entire chapter, Let Not Your Heart be Troubled, is outstanding in teaching righteousness by faith.

Here is another quote from the same chapter.



I know by experience that these things are true.

God is a God of miracles and He has proven that in my life over the last year and a half since I have dedicated myself to knowing God as it is my privilege to know Him.

I know Ellen White wrote some inspiring thoughts. Where they came from may be unknown. Some of them can be traced back to the original authors. Why wade through a bunch of junk to occasionally find some small gem?

 

[Gary K]

The period says it all Gary. There was no intention of trying to combine the two thoughts. It seems like you are just "picking" instead of realizing there is a problem with trying to use Isaiah's rendition of the New Earth. And the fact that I have not found anyone that includes verse 24 when trying to use prove we will be observing the old covenant Sabbath in Heaven. You want prove we are to observe a day, but provide very little to prove we must.

God knew, before the foundation of the Earth, that His chosen would be in continuous rebellion and would never share their Savior. There escape from slavery was a miracle that they should have used to help Gentiles to accept the only true God..

As to how many Israelites during the old covenant era will be saved, all I know is that they like us were sinners. God knows every heart and it was not what they did it is what Jesus did for ALL mankind.

You have that wrong. I love my SDA friends and family. In 1888 the brethren knew Ellen White was a farce. Many of the finest Christian men had to leave Adventism because of her continuous false visions and my way ort he highway attitude. How the church has tried to cover-up D. M. Canright's book revealing Ellen and the doctrines is also a farce.

She has led a wonderful group of people down the wrong path. I just wish my brothers in Christ would open their eyes, read what others have revealed and take a much closer look at what they have been taught.

God is bringing it back??? The church had its beginning in legalism. Ellen was a legalist through and through. Oh she claimed to have seen the Light, but the damage is done. The only way the church will ever recover is to burn every sentence she ever wrote and really depend on scripture for doctrine. It seems like that ever happening is like chasing rainbows. I really feel sorry for all of you that have been caught up in this controlling web.

It all starts out with the greatest command ever given, LOVE. 1Jn3:19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

We are sinners saved by our works, no saved by the Grace of Jesus. Jn 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

I know Ellen White wrote some inspiring thoughts. Where they came from may be unknown. Some of them can be traced back to the original authors. Why wade through a bunch of junk to occasionally find some small gem?

Righteousness by Faith is all throughout her writings. The conflict of the Ages series, Steps to Christ, Christ's Object Lessons, Thoughts from the Mount of Blessings, Faith and Works, to name a few are full of that theme. DM Canright has been disproven time and time again. When Ellen White died he came to her funeral and left weeping saying he was a lost man. He died in absolute poverty because the people who used his book/s to attack Ellen White despised him for his baseness just like the Jews despised Judas for betraying Jesus.

Dudley Canright and Seventh-Day Adventism

Here's an article on Canright. It speaks to his ego, mental instability and his private comments about SDAs and Ellen White after leaving the denomination. The fact that you despise the denomination means you will most likely not read this, but the truth would do you good.

 

[guevaraj]

Righteousness by Faith is all throughout her writings. The conflict of the Ages series, Steps to Christ, Christ's Object Lessons, Thoughts from the Mount of Blessings, Faith and Works, to name a few are full of that theme.

Brother, "righteousness by faith/belief (pistis)" is a mistake in translating Paul's revelation of an ambiguous word in the Greek New Testament that can mean "belief" and must not always be translated as "faith". Ellen white told us what it is in the following passage.

Ellen White was much in the field during the next two years, endeavoring to lead the churches and conferences to a deeper, fuller understanding of the important message of righteousness by faith. She spoke of this Bible truth as one which, though “new to many minds,” was in reality “old truth in new Framework.” (Ellen G. White, The Review and Herald, July 23, 1889, reprinted in Selected Messages, B. 1, p. 355)​

"Righteousness by faith/belief (pistis)" is a repackaging of the Greek New Testament with an ambiguous Greek word "pistis" for the old truth in Hebrew of "faith" not being "belief" alone in the following passage.

You say you have faith (pistis), for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith (pistis) without good deeds is inactive? Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, his belief (pistis) and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith (pistis) complete. And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed (pisteuó) God, and God credited to him as righteousness (work).” He was even called the friend of God. So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do (faith), not by belief (pistis) alone. (James 2:19-24 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

United in the hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Gary K]

Brother, "righteousness by faith/belief (pistis)" is a mistake in translating Paul's revelation of an ambiguous word in the Greek New Testament that can mean "belief" and must not always be translated as "faith". Ellen white told us what it is in the following passage.

Ellen White was much in the field during the next two years, endeavoring to lead the churches and conferences to a deeper, fuller understanding of the important message of righteousness by faith. She spoke of this Bible truth as one which, though “new to many minds,” was in reality “old truth in new Framework.” (Ellen G. White, The Review and Herald, July 23, 1889, reprinted in Selected Messages, B. 1, p. 355)​

"Righteousness by faith/belief (pistis)" is a repackaging of the Greek New Testament with an ambiguous Greek word "pistis" for the old truth in Hebrew of "faith" not being "belief" alone in the following passage.

You say you have faith (pistis), for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith (pistis) without good deeds is inactive? Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, his belief (pistis) and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith (pistis) complete. And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed (pisteuó) God, and God credited to him as righteousness (work).” He was even called the friend of God. So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do (faith), not by belief (pistis) alone. (James 2:19-24 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

United in the hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Sorry, I don't believe this any more than I do your claim to have found an error in scripture that even Jesus missed while here on earth.

 

[guevaraj]

Sorry, I don't believe this any more than I do your claim to have found an error in scripture that even Jesus missed while here on earth.

Brother, Jesus had no need to change it because the faithful needed to live near the stand-in Earthly temple-copy where the Sabbath is right in Jerusalem, but nowhere else. Now that Christians are spread throughout the world because of the true temple in heaven, it is necessary to better understand the Sabbath in the new covenant book of Hebrews. Our church has never changed "when it is" that evening takes place since Joshua. Our church still assumes the human tradition since Joshua that the first "evening" took place at the beginning of the first day, when it takes place in the middle of the first day.

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, Page 116)​

When our prophetess received the above message, the church had understood the first part: "what even is", but not the second part: "when it is". They still assume to this day the human tradition since Joshua that the first "evening" took place at the beginning of the first day, when I know it took place in the middle of the first day. The first day is from first light to light again in the morning or from morning to morning, except for the special case of the first day, which did not start on a standard morning because it was an instantaneous change and not a gradual transition from dark to light to make it a standard morning as it is for subsequent days.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 ESV)​

Our church must understand that you cannot have an "evening" without light first, because it is the gradual transition from light to dark. It is not the same from evening-to-morning above as evening-to-evening below, when the former is half the time of the latter. Above, a day is from first light to morning light, just as below a Sabbath is from evening to evening, making the first full day start as it ends from morning to morning, except for the special case of the first day where there was no gradual transition from dark to light, but an instantaneous change, unlike the first "evening" in the middle of the first day which made a gradual transition from light to dark.

It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.” (Leviticus 23:32 ESV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Gary K]

Brother, Jesus had no need to change it because the faithful needed to live near the stand-in Earthly temple-copy where the Sabbath is right in Jerusalem, but nowhere else. Now that Christians are spread throughout the world because of the true temple in heaven, it is necessary to better understand the Sabbath in the new covenant book of Hebrews. Our church has never changed "when it is" that evening takes place since Joshua. Our church still assumes the human tradition since Joshua that the first "evening" took place at the beginning of the first day, when it takes place in the middle of the first day.

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 1, Page 116)​

When our prophetess received the above message, the church had understood the first part: "what even is", but not the second part: "when it is". They still assume to this day the human tradition since Joshua that the first "evening" took place at the beginning of the first day, when I know it took place in the middle of the first day. The first day is from first light to light again in the morning or from morning to morning, except for the special case of the first day, which did not start on a standard morning because it was an instantaneous change and not a gradual transition from dark to light to make it a standard morning as it is for subsequent days.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. (Genesis 1:3-5 ESV)​

Our church must understand that you cannot have an "evening" without light first, because it is the gradual transition from light to dark. It is not the same from evening-to-morning above as evening-to-evening below, when the former is half the time of the latter. Above, a day is from first light to morning light, just as below a Sabbath is from evening to evening, making the first full day start as it ends from morning to morning, except for the special case of the first day where there was no gradual transition from dark to light, but an instantaneous change, unlike the first "evening" in the middle of the first day which made a gradual transition from light to dark.

It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict yourselves. On the ninth day of the month beginning at evening, from evening to evening shall you keep your Sabbath.” (Leviticus 23:32 ESV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Well you certainly took that out of context.

Here is what Ellen White actually said.

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together.

Testimonies vol 1 p. 116

 

[guevaraj]

Well you certainly took that out of context.

Brother, I am well aware of the context! After the second vision, there was more to learn about the Sabbath and our prophet had only confirmed small steps toward the whole story. In all cases, the church “assumed” that she was telling us everything. As we assumed the first vision in 1847 confirmed the understanding of Brother Bates for 8 years, we repeated the same mistake in assuming until this day, 168 years later, that the second vision in 1855, confirmed the understanding of the commencement of the Sabbath, of Brother Andrews, when in fact, in each case we had got a little closer, and we did not have the complete story. Both visions pointed to where in the Bible there was more to learn, but those clues were ignored, "assuming" that our prophet would reveal everything, and that no further study of the Bible was needed. As the first vision sent us to Leviticus to learn more, the second vision sent us to Genesis to learn more. Let’s look more closely at both visions to see the clues God gave us to learn more about the beginning of the Sabbath in the Bible. Her husband, James White, gives us an account of the first vision.

Mrs. White has in two visions been shown something in regard to the time of the commencement of the Sabbath. The first was as early as 1847, at Topsham, Maine. In that vision she was shown that to commence the Sabbath at sunrise was wrong. She then heard an angel repeat these words, "From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbaths." Brother Bates was present, and succeeded in satisfying all present that "even" was six o'clock. (James White, Review and Herald, February 25, 1868, page 168)​

The first vision points to Leviticus 23:32, where the word “evening” needs further study. This study was finally carried out to the satisfaction of the majority of the church 8 years later by Brother Andrews. The second vision comes after this study by Brother Andrews, confirming the meaning of the word “evening” in the Leviticus passage in God’s direct instructions to Israel.

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church Volume One, Page 116)​

The second vision also points to Genesis, where the full day is most clearly distinguished in Genesis 1:3-5 from first light to light again in the morning and, therefore, the seventh-day Sabbath was observed by God from sunrise to sunrise. This study has yet to be officially done by the church and, therefore, no change has been made. In the first vision, our prophet confirmed it would be wrong to begin the Sabbath at sunrise here in the United States based on what our people understood in Genesis. The second vision confirmed that it was right to start the Sabbath in Jerusalem at sunset, just as the Jews have done to this day. The fact is that we have in the Bible the proper observance of the Sabbath in two places and something different is done in each place. In Eden, the first Sabbath was kept by God from sunrise to sunrise, the seventh full day of the week. However, in Jerusalem, the Sabbath starts half a day before the seventh local full day. They begin the Sabbath in the middle of the 6th day, the day of preparation, and end the Sabbath in the middle of the seventh day. This difference made in the two locations is contrary to our tradition of doing the same in each location. In conclusion, what is consistent in the Bible reveals that the proper observance of the Sabbath is in the time zone of Eden and that is why Israel observes the Sabbath half a day before its seventh local day. Here in the United States, the time to start the Sabbath is when it starts in Jerusalem, because we all keep the sabbath together and not separately as is our tradition. Israel is our example of starting the Sabbath half a day earlier than in Eden. The previous step of understanding the word “evening” helps us understand in Genesis the days of creation to begin with the period of light and end with the period of darkness and that each day of creation ends in the morning instead of in the evening as in the Leviticus passage. This is not something that is easily learned, that is why the Lord has patiently pushed us one step at a time. United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Gary K]

It’s written that the the law is perfect but man isn’t. The law was given to teach us that we were in sin. By applying a curse to it taught men they were in sin. Can you personally say you have kept all 10? If you have failed in one you are guilty of them all. This was the curse. Even Christ healed on the sabbath. He picked corn from the field on the sabbath. Even the Pharisees accused him as violating the sabbath.
I just wanted to point out the curse the law Carrie’s to those who live by it as their means of righteousness.

So are you saying Jesus actually broke the Sabbath?

 

[Gary K]

Brother, I am well aware of the context! After the second vision, there was more to learn about the Sabbath and our prophet had only confirmed small steps toward the whole story. In all cases, the church “assumed” that she was telling us everything. As we assumed the first vision in 1847 confirmed the understanding of Brother Bates for 8 years, we repeated the same mistake in assuming until this day, 168 years later, that the second vision in 1855, confirmed the understanding of the commencement of the Sabbath, of Brother Andrews, when in fact, in each case we had got a little closer, and we did not have the complete story. Both visions pointed to where in the Bible there was more to learn, but those clues were ignored, "assuming" that our prophet would reveal everything, and that no further study of the Bible was needed. As the first vision sent us to Leviticus to learn more, the second vision sent us to Genesis to learn more. Let’s look more closely at both visions to see the clues God gave us to learn more about the beginning of the Sabbath in the Bible. Her husband, James White, gives us an account of the first vision.

Mrs. White has in two visions been shown something in regard to the time of the commencement of the Sabbath. The first was as early as 1847, at Topsham, Maine. In that vision she was shown that to commence the Sabbath at sunrise was wrong. She then heard an angel repeat these words, "From even unto even shall ye celebrate your Sabbaths." Brother Bates was present, and succeeded in satisfying all present that "even" was six o'clock. (James White, Review and Herald, February 25, 1868, page 168)​

The first vision points to Leviticus 23:32, where the word “evening” needs further study. This study was finally carried out to the satisfaction of the majority of the church 8 years later by Brother Andrews. The second vision comes after this study by Brother Andrews, confirming the meaning of the word “evening” in the Leviticus passage in God’s direct instructions to Israel.

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church Volume One, Page 116)​

The second vision also points to Genesis, where the full day is most clearly distinguished in Genesis 1:3-5 from first light to light again in the morning and, therefore, the seventh-day Sabbath was observed by God from sunrise to sunrise. This study has yet to be officially done by the church and, therefore, no change has been made. In the first vision, our prophet confirmed it would be wrong to begin the Sabbath at sunrise here in the United States based on what our people understood in Genesis. The second vision confirmed that it was right to start the Sabbath in Jerusalem at sunset, just as the Jews have done to this day. The fact is that we have in the Bible the proper observance of the Sabbath in two places and something different is done in each place. In Eden, the first Sabbath was kept by God from sunrise to sunrise, the seventh full day of the week. However, in Jerusalem, the Sabbath starts half a day before the seventh local full day. They begin the Sabbath in the middle of the 6th day, the day of preparation, and end the Sabbath in the middle of the seventh day. This difference made in the two locations is contrary to our tradition of doing the same in each location. In conclusion, what is consistent in the Bible reveals that the proper observance of the Sabbath is in the time zone of Eden and that is why Israel observes the Sabbath half a day before its seventh local day. Here in the United States, the time to start the Sabbath is when it starts in Jerusalem, because we all keep the sabbath together and not separately as is our tradition. Israel is our example of starting the Sabbath half a day earlier than in Eden. The previous step of understanding the word “evening” helps us understand in Genesis the days of creation to begin with the period of light and end with the period of darkness and that each day of creation ends in the morning instead of in the evening as in the Leviticus passage. This is not something that is easily learned, that is why the Lord has patiently pushed us one step at a time. United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Your misunderstanding of what she said is enormous. The angel specifically said the Sabbath goes from even to even. Then when she asked if the frown of God was upon the church because they had been worshiping from 6 pm to 6 pm she was told no. Then the angel told her basically what Paul said: the times of ignorance God winks at. He didn't tell her that new light would come that contradicted what he had just said. He said that if the light he had just given was rejected then it would be sin to refuse that light.

 

[daq]

I saw that it is even so: “From even unto even, shall ye celebrate your Sabbath.” Said the angel: “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” I asked the angel if the frown of God had been upon His people for commencing the Sabbath as they had. I was directed back to the first rise of the Sabbath, and followed the people of God up to this time, but did not see that the Lord was displeased, or frowned upon them. I inquired why it had been thus, that at this late day we must change the time of commencing the Sabbath. Said the angel: “Ye shall understand, but not yet, not yet.” Said the angel: “If light come, and that light is set aside or rejected, then comes condemnation and the frown of God; but before the light comes, there is no sin, for there is no light for them to reject.” I saw that it was in the minds of some that the Lord had shown that the Sabbath commenced at six o'clock, when I had only seen that it commenced at “even,” and it was inferred that even was at six. I saw that the servants of God must draw together, press together. (Testimonies for the Church Volume One, Page 116)​

So the angel says to her, “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.”

And that is basically it, except for the explanation for why the condemnation comes: it comes upon those who finally have the opportunity to hear the truth from the Word and reject his Testimony even though it is straight from the scripture.

“Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.”

Genesis 24:11
11 And he made his camels to kneel down without the city by a well of water at the time of the evening, the time when women go out to draw water.

John 4:6-7
6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.
7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.

And what was just said right before the above passage? oh yeah, John 3:36.

 

[Leaf473]

I believe there's an issue in addition to what time of day the Sabbath starts:

Most people would agree that the Sabbath is currently celebrated in Manila, then Jerusalem, then in New York.

Could it just as easily be Jerusalem, then New York, then Manila?

I don't think the scriptures say, but maybe they do?

 

[daq]

I believe there's an issue in addition to what time of day the Sabbath starts:

Most people would agree that the Sabbath is currently celebrated in Manila, then Jerusalem, then in New York.

Could it just as easily be Jerusalem, then New York, then Manila?

I don't think the scriptures say, but maybe they do?

Sounds similar to Jorge's theory, based on the international date line, but where is such an idea taught in the scripture? You are the land, (both the eretz and the adamah-soil of the heart), so it is wherever you are, and it is based on the sacred and the civil calendar days, and the sacred calendar day is seven hours, (opening creation account), and the civil calendar day is twelve hours, (Numbers 7).

What hour is it in the following passage that is highlighted in bold red and underlined?

John 4:21-24 KJV
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It is the bottom of the sixth hour in the above because it was about the sixth hour when the conversation began, (John 4:6-7, quoted in my previous post above). The bottom of the hour signifies the sacred calendar day because the hours begin on the half: and when it comes to the twice daily oblations, and the corresponding incense and prayer times, during the evening portion of the hour there is silence in the heavens for the space of half an hour, (Rev 8:1-4). This means the prayers commence at the top of the hour which is the morning portion of the next hour. In this case it would be high noon, midday, the midst of the tzohorim hour and commencement of the evening portion of the twelve hour civil calendar day. There are six hours in the morning portion of the civil calendar day, and six hours in the evening portion of the civil calendar day: twelve hours, (John 11:9-10).

These things can be observed anywhere on the planet without any need to know what time it is anywhere else in the world.

 

[Leaf473]

Sounds similar to Jorge's theory, based on the international date line, but where is such an idea taught in the scripture?

I believe I was presenting an issue, asking a question... Not really putting forward a theory.

You are the land, (both the eretz and the adamah-soil of the heart), so it is wherever you are, and it is based on the sacred and the civil calendar days, and the sacred calendar day is seven hours, (opening creation account), and the civil calendar day is twelve hours, (Numbers 7).

That sounds like another solution. I think that would go along with the worship of God not being about the elemental things of this world.

Bible Gateway passage: John 4:21 - New American Standard Bible

Jesus *said to her, “Believe Me, woman, that a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

www.biblegateway.com

What hour is it in the following passage that is highlighted in bold red and underlined?

John 4:21-24 KJV
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

Cool! We both thought of the same passage

I'm reading your post and replying to it at the same time

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It is the bottom of the sixth hour in the above because it was about the sixth hour when the conversation began, (John 4:6-7, quoted in my previous post above). The bottom of the hour signifies the sacred calendar day because the hours begin on the half: and when it comes to the twice daily oblations, and the corresponding incense and prayer times, during the evening portion of the hour there is silence in the heavens for the space of half an hour, (Rev 8:1-4). This means the prayers commence at the top of the hour which is the morning portion of the next hour. In this case it would be high noon, midday, the midst of the tzohorim hour and commencement of the evening portion of the twelve hour civil calendar day. There are six hours in the morning portion of the civil calendar day, and six hours in the evening portion of the civil calendar day: twelve hours, (John 11:9-10).

These things can be observed anywhere on the planet without any need to know what time it is anywhere else in the world.

I don't think the time that you have highlighted in bold red and underlined above refers to a particular time of day. I think it's talking about a period of time, the same way that it's used here

Bible Gateway passage: John 12:23 - New American Standard Bible

But Jesus *answered them by saying, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[daq]

I don't think the time that you have highlighted in bold red and underlined above refers to a particular time of day. I think it's talking about a period of time, the same way that it's used here

Bible Gateway passage: John 12:23 - New American Standard Bible

But Jesus *answered them by saying, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.

www.biblegateway.com

I believe it is the same as how the Shabbat hour is also signified in the very next chapter.

 

[guevaraj]

So the angel says to her, “Take the word of God, read it, understand, and ye cannot err. Read carefully, and ye shall there find what even is, and when it is.” And that is basically it, except for the explanation for why the condemnation comes: it comes upon those who finally have the opportunity to hear the truth from the Word and reject his Testimony even though it is straight from the scripture.

Brother, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday, December 8, 2023, at 9:35 AM EST! One woman does not prove this is the time when women go to the well and other passages oppose your view like David's use of "evening" to say that he will wait three full days for Jonathan's signal. Jonathan quickly gives David the signal early in the morning way before David's full day of hiding until the end of the day at the "evening" sunset.

David replied, “Tomorrow we celebrate the new moon festival. I’ve always eaten with the king on this occasion, but tomorrow I’ll hide in the field and stay there until the evening of the third day. If your father asks where I am, tell him I asked permission to go home to Bethlehem for an annual family sacrifice. If he says, ‘Fine!’ you will know all is well. But if he is angry and loses his temper, you will know he is determined to kill me. (1 Samuel 20:5-7 NLT)​

"Joshua" did not give us the right view of the Sabbath "day" in Jerusalem when he assumed the Sabbath fell on a weekday in Jerusalem. Joshua failed to recognize that God had prevented them by "oath" from entering the Sabbath "day" by making them keep the seventh day of the week, which was for 40 years with Manna half a day too late to enter the Sabbath near Jerusalem, when the Sabbath falls half a day before the seventh day of the week in Jerusalem.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. (Hebrews 4:6-8 NLT)​

The days of the week during the 40 years in the desert were from morning to morning, as revealed in the following passage where they are given two portions of Manna on the previous day because there will be no Manna tomorrow. Importantly, the bad news that there will be no quail tomorrow if the next day begins in the "evening" is not mentioned, because people will eat quail in the "evening" before Manna is the first thing they will not have the next day. The quail not mentioned clearly shows the day begins in the morning.

On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much as usual—four quarts for each person instead of two. Then all the leaders of the community came and asked Moses for an explanation. He told them, “This is what the LORD commanded: Tomorrow will be a day of complete rest, a holy Sabbath day set apart for the LORD. So bake or boil as much as you want today, and set aside what is left for tomorrow.” So they put some aside until morning, just as Moses had commanded. And in the morning the leftover food was wholesome and good, without maggots or odor. Moses said, “Eat this food today, for today is a Sabbath day dedicated to the LORD. There will be no food on the ground today. (Exodus 16:22-25 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[guevaraj]

Your misunderstanding of what she said is enormous. The angel specifically said the Sabbath goes from even to even. Then when she asked if the frown of God was upon the church because they had been worshiping from 6 pm to 6 pm she was told no. Then the angel told her basically what Paul said: the times of ignorance God winks at. He didn't tell her that new light would come that contradicted what he had just said. He said that if the light he had just given was rejected then it would be sin to refuse that light.

Brother, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday, December 8, 2023, at 9:35 AM EST! The Sabbath in Jerusalem is from evening to evening, but we understood that in Genesis it was from morning to morning, as our own commentary proves in the following passage. Initially, they wanted to keep a morning to morning Sabbath because they understood Genesis as documented in our commentary quoted below and in a recent scholarly paper by Amanda McGuire in 2008 showed! Already in 1953, our people understood that from evening to morning is the period that God called "night" and that the days in Genesis begin in the “morning”, having ended in the “morning”. Written was the SDA Bible commentary from 1953 to 1957, as stated on wikipedia.org. I highlight the end of the second paragraph in its comment on verse 5 of chapter 1 of Genesis. While it is true that the first "evening" preceded the first "morning", what is not said is that you cannot have an "evening" without having light first. What was before the light was "darkness" and not "evening". Those are different words that are not interchangeable.

Some have thought creative act lasted one night, from the evening to the morning; and others, that every day began with the morning, although the inspired Record states plainly that the evening preceded the morning. (SDA Bible Commentary, found online)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Gary K]

Brother, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday, December 8, 2023, at 9:35 AM EST! The Sabbath in Jerusalem is from evening to evening, but we understood that in Genesis it was from morning to morning, as our own commentary proves in the following passage. Initially, they wanted to keep a morning to morning Sabbath because they understood Genesis as documented in our commentary quoted below and in a recent scholarly paper by Amanda McGuire in 2008 showed! Already in 1953, our people understood that from evening to morning is the period that God called "night" and that the days in Genesis begin in the “morning”, having ended in the “morning”. Written was the SDA Bible commentary from 1953 to 1957, as stated on wikipedia.org. I highlight the end of the second paragraph in its comment on verse 5 of chapter 1 of Genesis. While it is true that the first "evening" preceded the first "morning", what is not said is that you cannot have an "evening" without having light first. What was before the light was "darkness" and not "evening". Those are different words that are not interchangeable.

Some have thought creative act lasted one night, from the evening to the morning; and others, that every day began with the morning, although the inspired Record states plainly that the evening preceded the morning. (SDA Bible Commentary, found online)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Nice avoidance of what I said and what the angel told Ellen White. I will never join you in this deception as scripture alone is very clear. Just have at it if that's what you choose to do. I will not join you as I find rebellion against God to be terrifying.

 

[guevaraj]

Nice avoidance of what I said and what the angel told Ellen White. I will never join you in this deception as scripture alone is very clear. Just have at it if that's what you choose to do. I will not join you as I find rebellion against God to be terrifying.

Brother, you are right to "fear" Him!

The LORD is like a father to his children, tender and compassionate to those who fear him. For he knows how weak we are; he remembers we are only dust. Our days on earth are like grass; like wildflowers, we bloom and die. The wind blows, and we are gone—as though we had never been here. But the love of the LORD remains forever with those who fear him. (Psalm 103:13-17 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Gary K]

Brother, you are right to "fear" Him!

The LORD is like a father to his children, tender and compassionate to those who fear him. For he knows how weak we are; he remembers we are only dust. Our days on earth are like grass; like wildflowers, we bloom and die. The wind blows, and we are gone—as though we had never been here. But the love of the LORD remains forever with those who fear him. (Psalm 103:13-17 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I don't fear God. I love Him. It terrifies me to disobey Him because I know the end result of disobedience.

Proverbs 14: 12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

[guevaraj]

I don't fear God. I love Him. It terrifies me to disobey Him because I know the end result of disobedience.

Proverbs 14: 12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Brother, the following passage tells us "Joshua" failed to recognize how God had prevented them by "oath" from entering the Sabbath by making them keep the seventh day of the week from morning to morning, which was for 40 years with Manna half a day too late to enter the Sabbath near Jerusalem, when the Sabbath after Manna in Jerusalem from evening to evening falls half a day before the seventh day of the week from morning to morning.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. (Hebrews 4:6-8 NLT)​

The days of the week during the 40 years in the desert were from morning to morning, as revealed in the following passage where they are given two portions of Manna on the previous day because there will be no Manna tomorrow. Importantly, the bad news that there will be no quail tomorrow if the next day begins in the "evening" is not mentioned, because they will eat quail in the "evening" before Manna is the first thing they will not have the next day. The quail not mentioned clearly shows the day begins in the morning.

On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much as usual—four quarts for each person instead of two. Then all the leaders of the community came and asked Moses for an explanation. He told them, “This is what the LORD commanded: Tomorrow will be a day of complete rest, a holy Sabbath day set apart for the LORD. So bake or boil as much as you want today, and set aside what is left for tomorrow.” So they put some aside until morning, just as Moses had commanded. And in the morning the leftover food was wholesome and good, without maggots or odor. Moses said, “Eat this food today, for today is a Sabbath day dedicated to the LORD. There will be no food on the ground today. (Exodus 16:22-25 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge