Justification and Sanctification ?

[Chaleb]

Then all the born again never sin in truth, never commit a sinful act in thought,

Sin, is discovered when you are under the Law.
The LAW is the power of Sin, the power of sin is the Law.

ITs the LAW that defines your carnality as SIN.

The Born again, are "not under the Law, but under Grace".


So, when you are trying to keep the law or commandments to stay saved, you are "fallen from Grace".
And that means your faith is broken, which causes you to BELIEVE you are a sinner, sinning.

God said that the born again are :

Saints
Heirs of God
In Christ
Joint Heirs with Jesus
Born again
Have Eternal Life
Temple of the Holy Spirit.
One with GOD

See all that?
There is no sin found there....

What you dont understand is that.... "where there is no LAW, there is no Transgressing of the LAW" that defines SIN.

The born again, are "NOT UNDER THE LAW....but under GRACE"...

This is why Paul refers to carnal deeds a Christian does, as a "work of the Flesh".

Im not saying that you dont have issues with your LUST>.......what im saying is.....that as long as you dont understand who you have become "in Christ" as a "new Creation".... you wont "reckon the old man to be dead", and you wont understand that "the old man is Crucified with Christ " and the born again are "freed from Sin".

God says that = "my people are destroyed by Lack OF KNOWLEDGE".

A believer who is stuck here.... Hebrews 6:1 for life, is stuck there because of "lack of Knowledge"..... regarding who they have become "in Christ".

 

[setst777]

If repentance is genuine, you will receive God's Spirit and that faith is salvific since you receive God's Spirit. But the faith is not saving you before you receive the Spirit. Call it whatever you want.

Firstly, I did not interpret Galatians 3:26 and Galatians 4:6. I introduced those Scriptures, so you know why I quoted them, and I highlighted and underlined certain words so you do not miss the plain text.

Those Scriptures need no interpretation because they are very plain to understand if one is objective.

We are children of God by faith, and because we are children of God, the Spirit indwells us.

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) 26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) 6 And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

You cannot disagree with my interpretation, because I gave none. Just read what the Passages plainly state.

Dead Faith. . .

So which faith of the two is the dead faith you were writing about?

• No faith saves you. Only God can save us. God chooses, wills, elects, to save those who believe in His Son, Lord Jesus.
• There is no second faith that saves you after receiving the Spirit - Not In Scripture.
• There is only one faith by which God chooses to save us, and that faith includes repentance - crucifying the master of sinful passions, and then a commitment to follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love.

This is the only faith by which we love Lord Jesus and keep his commandments. That is the faith by which the Spirit of God indwells us to guide us in that new life of faith we committed to when we first believed.

John 14:15-17 (WEB) 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

Yes, those who believe receive the Spirit to guide those who have put their faith in Lord Jesus, but only as the Believer remains in the faith by which the Spirit indwelt him, walking by the Spirit by the same faith he had when he first believed, and by which the Spirit indwelt him. There is no second faith; rather, you now live out your faith in Lord Jesus, and the Spirit helps you - the Spirit leads as we follow by faith.

John 3:14-18 (WEB)
14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life (indwelling of the Spirit). 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Romans 8:12-14 (WEB)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

 

[Chaleb]

We are children of God by faith, and because we are children of God, the Spirit indwells us.

You are changing your words now, because you tried to deceive, and were denied.


What you TAUGHT was that a born again Christian, does not have to have the Spirit of God in them.
That is what you posted, more then once.
That's a demonic teaching, that denies the NT, Salvation, Paul's doctrine, and Christianity, utterly.

Now you have come to HIDE your words, and rewrite your words, but, you are kinda too late, as you posted this heresy that denies Christianity, more then once, setst777.

 

[setst777]

Sin, is discovered when you are under the Law.
The LAW is the power of Sin, the power of sin is the Law.

ITs the LAW that defines your carnality as SIN.

The Born again, are "not under the Law, but under Grace".

So, when you are trying to keep the law or commandments to stay saved, you are "fallen from Grace".
And that means your faith is broken, which causes you to BELIEVE you are a sinner, sinning.

God said that the born again are :

What you dont understand is that.... "where there is no LAW, there is no Transgressing of the LAW" that defines SIN.

The born again, are "NOT UNDER THE LAW....but under GRACE"...

This is why Paul refers to carnal deeds a Christian does, as a "work of the Flesh".

1 John 2:29 (WEB) If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1 John 3:7-10 (ESV) 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one {{{born of God}}} makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been {{{born of God}}}. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

 

[fhansen]

A "christian" faker, is one who is not born again, and would teach that you dont have to be born again, or have the Spirit of God in you, to be a "Christian".

See that?
That is someone who does not have the Spirit of God in them, who thinks they are a Christian., and so does their CULT.
They are "religious but LOST".

Also,...... once a person has lost Faith in Christ, and is now trying to go to heaven by works, and commandment keeping and law... then this person is now FAKING their Christianity, because they are "fallen from Grace"., and 'in the flesh".

They dont understand that only GOD makes A Christian.
Whereas the Law and commandments prove you're a sinner.

"The Law is the power of Sin, the power of sin is the LAW"

The Cross is the Grace of God that redeems the world, one BELIEVER at a time.

= No water, law, or commandments, required.

Most of this is quite true, and in line with what I’ve maintained here, and in line with the teachings of the ancient churches, incidentally. The problem is in separating the need to be personally righteous from salvation. If a born again person never struggles with personal sin, and can never fall seriously into it, and they can predict their own perseverance in that throughout their lives, then there would be no obstacle, and no need to strive against sin or pursue holiness. But I don’t see that as valid and tend to believe you’re simply entertaining intellectual concepts based on your interpretation of Scripture, not on experience.

 

[setst777]

You are changing your words now, because you tried to deceive, and were denied.

Never changed anything.

What you TAUGHT was that a born again Christian, does not have to have the Spirit of God in them.
That is what you posted, more then once.

Never wrote that a born again Christian does not have the Spirit of God in them, neither do I believe that. You made that up.

That's a demonic teaching, that denies the NT, Salvation, Paul's doctrine, and Christianity, utterly.

You are making up slander and condemnations without any evidence.

Now you have come to HIDE your words, and rewrite your words, but, you are kinda too late, as you posted this heresy that denies Christianity, more then once, setst777.

Never hid anything. Anyone can view my messages on this board, and can see for themselves that you are slandering me. Once anyone views my messages and your slanderous accusations, you will lose any credibility you have left for as long as these messages remain on this board and continue to be viewed - which could be for many decades.

 

[fhansen]

Salvation is Spiritual

The Bible is Spiritual.

Being "in Christ" is Spiritual

Being Born again is Spiritual.

"rightly dividing the word".... is Spiritual.

The walk of FAITH< is Spiritual

"God is A Spirit".


What isn't spiritual?

Trying to be like Christ, by keeping law, commandments, and doing good works, which is what you are trying to prove is "spirituak" or "walking in the SPIRIT".

"Walking in the SPIRIT", does not say.....keeping commandments and doing good.

Just read it, as its not that difficult to see that "Spirit" is not "present your body a living sacrifice".

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Rom 2:7

 

[fhansen]

Im not saying that you dont have issues with your LUST>.......what im saying is.....that as long as you dont understand who you have become "in Christ" as a "new Creation".... you wont "reckon the old man to be dead", and you wont understand that "the old man is Crucified with Christ " and the born again are "freed from Sin".

'Reckoning oneself dead to sin', in light of all of Paul's counsel, is meaningless if nothing more than an intellectual, imaginary structure that we must now resolve to comply with. Paul means for us to be dead to sin, in actuality, now slaves to righteousness, in actuality, in order to see God. And if the law just "happens" to report what that righteousness "looks like", that doesn't mean that we're not obligated to be righteous even as that authentic righteousness can only be accomplished by being under grace..

 

[AbbaLove]

It seems to me believers had the Spirit before Pentecost, but at Pentecost the Spirit was given in a new way.

How many times did Jesus say directly or indirectly ... "O ye of little faith". Isn't that still true today? Many, many cessationists hold to doctrine/theology based on their misinterpretation of scripture (IMO). I'll go so far as to say those Christians that are cessationists are a "christian" in name only. That said, GOD has the final say.

I believe you receive the Holy Spirit through repentance and faith (belief in the fact that Christ died for our sins and rose), and then the Spirit gives you saving faith (you get to know Christ personally. It becomes a relationship)..

Beautifully Expressed!​

I'm not interested in convincing you (setst777), just sharing my view. What is it you find so problematic? That people can believe in Christ without having saving faith?

It all depends on how a Christian underatands "believe". It's really unfair of someone to critize your post without knowing the mind/heart condition of one's "belief".What we can agree on is that without belief in Christ (John 3:16) it's impossible to have saving faith.

He may be using your post as referring to other "christians" that base their saving faith on a certain church denominaton/docrine(s).

Don't see any reason to find fault with your post. Only GOD knows the intent of your heart's Love of Jesus/God.

 

[AbbaLove]

Three of you guys (you know who you are) need to STOP.

It is in NO WAY honoring/glorifying our LORD; especially this time of the year or any time. Just another example of the disunity that exists in Christendom.

This thread should be closed if you can't get along and if nothing else ... Agree to Disagree

Edit Note: IMO it's primarily just one of you three that is causing the friction and why this thread is now on p14.

 

[zoidar]

Firstly, I did not interpret Galatians 3:26 and Galatians 4:6. I introduced those Scriptures, so you know why I quoted them, and I highlighted and underlined certain words so you do not miss the plain text.

Those Scriptures need no interpretation because they are very plain to understand if one is objective.

We are children of God by faith, and because we are children of God, the Spirit indwells us.

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) 26 For you are all children of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) 6 And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

You cannot disagree with my interpretation, because I gave none. Just read what the Passages plainly state.

Dead Faith. . .

So which faith of the two is the dead faith you were writing about?

• No faith saves you. Only God can save us. God chooses, wills, elects, to save those who believe in His Son, Lord Jesus.
• There is no second faith that saves you after receiving the Spirit - Not In Scripture.
• There is only one faith by which God chooses to save us, and that faith includes repentance - crucifying the master of sinful passions, and then a commitment to follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love.

This is the only faith by which we love Lord Jesus and keep his commandments. That is the faith by which the Spirit of God indwells us to guide us in that new life of faith we committed to when we first believed.

John 14:15-17 (WEB) 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

Yes, those who believe receive the Spirit to guide those who have put their faith in Lord Jesus, but only as the Believer remains in the faith by which the Spirit indwelt him, walking by the Spirit by the same faith he had when he first believed, and by which the Spirit indwelt him. There is no second faith; rather, you now live out your faith in Lord Jesus, and the Spirit helps you - the Spirit leads as we follow by faith.

John 3:14-18 (WEB)
14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life (indwelling of the Spirit). 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Romans 8:12-14 (WEB)
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Thanks for the chat! We have both given our view. I agree on much, it's just a matter of perspective I believe. Bowing out! God bless!

 

[AbbaLove]

You are changing your words now, because you tried to deceive, and were denied.

What you TAUGHT was that a born again Christian, does not have to have the Spirit of God in them.
That is what you posted, more then once.
That's a demonic teaching, that denies the NT, Salvation, Paul's doctrine, and Christianity, utterly.

Now you have come to HIDE your words, and rewrite your words, but, you are kinda too late, as you posted this heresy that denies Christianity, more then once, setst777.

Your replies on this page to fhansen and the above reply to Setse777 come across as an attack (IMO) causing unnecessary friction.

 

[BBAS 64]

Without getting into a debate the vast majority of Christians agree on the following explanation ...

​

Justification means being declared righteous, "(just as if we'd never sinned); while sanctification means growing in righteousness.​

Some may differ on interpretation, but the purpose of this thread is your interpretation of Romans 7 - especially verses 17-20. Do you interpret Romans 7:17-20 that Paul is as much as saying that he finds it difficult to stop sinning even after (not before) his "born again" conversion (Titus 3:5).

17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.​

How does one grow in righteousness if they can't seem to stop their sinning ... "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.” (John 5:14) and "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. ... from now on sin no more." (John 8:10-11).

He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)​

Good Day, Abba

You might find this useful:

Thomas R. Schreiner, professor of New Testament Interpretation preaches from Romans 7 on the battle that wages within us as new creations in Christ.

In Him

Bill

 

[Mark Quayle]

Without getting into a debate the vast majority of Christians agree on the following explanation ...

​

Justification means being declared righteous, "(just as if we'd never sinned); while sanctification means growing in righteousness.​

Some may differ on interpretation, but the purpose of this thread is your interpretation of Romans 7 - especially verses 17-20. Do you interpret Romans 7:17-20 that Paul is as much as saying that he finds it difficult to stop sinning even after (not before) his "born again" conversion (Titus 3:5).

17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.​

How does one grow in righteousness if they can't seem to stop their sinning ... "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.” (John 5:14) and "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. ... from now on sin no more." (John 8:10-11).

He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)​

You ask, "How does one grow in righteousness if they can't seem to stop their sinning ... "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.” (John 5:14) and "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. ... from now on sin no more." (John 8:10-11)."

Growing in righteousness is a lot more than simply success in obeying.

It is also learning from Christ and about Christ. Not that I have arrived —far from it!— but I thank God that I have not overcome every temptation, because from what God has taken me through, I have learned about the love of God, his forbearance, his patience, his strength, his wisdom, and my awful weakness and utter unworthiness of his infinite mercy and kindness toward me. I have learned a little bit about who I am; it is not who I thought I was: I am what God is using me for, what he has in mind for me, and his assessment of me. I have learned a little bit about the fact that this life is for God and his glory —not for "me".

So then, shall I sin that Grace may abound? Of course not! But, I do, and it does...

 

[Dah'veed]

You ask, "How does one grow in righteousness if they can't seem to stop their sinning ... "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.” (John 5:14) and "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. ... from now on sin no more." (John 8:10-11)."

Go and sin no more is no longer relying on the sin nature.
For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. Col 3:3-4

This life is not about us, but about Christ.

Dead to sin, Alive in Christ Rom 6:1-4
Gal 2:20
Gal 6:14
Rom 8:1-2

 

[Rapture Bound]

Good Day, Abba

You might find this useful:

Thomas R. Schreiner, professor of New Testament Interpretation preaches from Romans 7 on the battle that wages within us as new creations in Christ.

In Him

Bill

Thank you BBAS 64 for posting that excellent video link! Thomas Schreiner really hits on a very important principle that needs to be applied within the context of Romans 7 ... the "already/not yet" perspective of salvation. So very many make the fatal mistake of assuming that the "not yet" component of salvation implies that there will be some believers who, having already receiving eternal life through Christ's atoning work, will fail to receive the fullness of their inheritance in Heaven.

They have been caught up in the strong delusion that they must somehow contribute to the future forgiveness of their sins through their moral conduct [not even realizing that that is synonymous with rejecting Christ's finished atoning work on their behalf]. Christ has forever removed the just penalty for sin on behalf of all those who have actually .... believed that Christ has forever removed the just penalty of sin on their behalf.

 

[Clare73]

Thank you BBAS 64 for posting that excellent video link! Thomas Schreiner really hits on a very important principle that needs to be applied within the context of Romans 7 ... the "already/not yet" perspective of salvation. So very many make the fatal mistake of assuming that the "not yet" component of salvation implies that there will be some believers who, having already receiving eternal life through Christ's atoning work, will fail to receive the fullness of their inheritance in Heaven.

They have been caught up in the strong delusion that they must somehow contribute to the future forgiveness of their sins through their moral conduct [not even realizing that that is synonymous with rejecting Christ's finished atoning work on their behalf]. Christ has forever removed the just penalty for sin on behalf of all those who have actually .... believed that Christ has forever removed the just penalty of sin on their behalf.

Keeping in mind that those who truly believe that Christ has forever removed the just penalty of sin on their behalf
will be walking in obedience by the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).

 

[Rapture Bound]

Keeping in mind that those who truly believe that Christ has forever removed the just penalty of sin on their behalf
will be walking in obedience by the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).

Yes indeed, God has promised that all of those who have truly been regenerated will be transformed by the sanctifying, purifying work of God the Holy Spirit.

 

[setst777]

This life is not about us, but about Christ.

Yes, the life you now lead is about Christ, following him. That is the faith of the Gospel.

Even so, while in this life...

Is the Gospel the Good News for us or for Christ?
Was Lord Jesus crucified and killed for himself or for us?
Is salvation for Christ, or for us?
Do you repent and follow Christ for his sake, or do you do it for yourself, to be saved?

1 Corinthians 15:32 (WEB) If the dead are not raised, then “let’s eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.” [Isaiah 22:13]

Growing in righteousness is a lot more than simply success in obeying.

It is also learning from Christ and about Christ. Not that I have arrived —far from it!— but I thank God that I have not overcome every temptation, because from what God has taken me through, I have learned about the love of God, his forbearance, his patience, his strength, his wisdom, and my awful weakness and utter unworthiness of his infinite mercy and kindness toward me. I have learned a little bit about who I am; it is not who I thought I was: I am what God is using me for, what he has in mind for me, and his assessment of me. I have learned a little bit about the fact that this life is for God and his glory —not for "me".

So then, shall I sin that Grace may abound? Of course not! But, I do, and it does...

Living in the flesh with its sinful passions while we live by faith does humble us for sure, but if I am understanding you correctly, to say that you could not have lived out your faith in this life any better or less than what God has in mind for you, and what God is using you for, is not a Scripture teaching. God definitely holds us, even Christians, responsible for how we live out our faith in this life, and not everyone who is presently in the faith will remain so.

Luke 21:34-36 (WEB) 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap destruction. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let {{us}} not be weary in doing good, for {{we}} will reap in due season, {{if we}} do not give up.

Romans 8:12-14 (NIV) 12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation – but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit {{you}} put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. 14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

Hebrews 4:1 (EWEB) Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a {{promise of entering}} into {{His Rest.}}

Hebrews 4:11 (EWEB) 11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the {{same example of disobedience}}.

1 Corinthians 10:11-12 (EWEB) 11 Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for {{our admonition}}, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he does not fall.

Romans 11:20-22 (EWEB) 20 True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God didn’t spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those {{who fell}}, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[setst777]

Good Day, Abba

You might find this useful:

Thomas R. Schreiner, professor of New Testament Interpretation preaches from Romans 7 on the battle that wages within us as new creations in Christ.

In Him

Bill

I appreciate the contributions Thomas Schriener has made, and I do appreciate his common sense, trust in God's Word, and his spiritual comprehension of various Scriptures as he displays in his commentaries. However, from watching the video, my view is that Schriener's explanation of Romans 7 does not take into consideration the full and plain teaching of Romans 8. The transition from life under law (Romans 7) to life in the Spirit, as Romans 8 teaches us about, is lacking in his explanation.