Olivet Discourse & Rev 6

[Douggg]

But the Olivet discourse was not about that, The Abomination of Desolation takes place in our future.

Why don't you look at my chart again. The abomination of desolation is in Matthew 24:15, to happen in the End Times, in our near future.

On my chart, Matthew 24:15-51 is in the End Times column, when Israel is a sovereign nation again, in 1948.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi AdB

You are taking my comments way out of context, we're talking about the rapture...

So was I, you stated that Christians suffer tribulation but not the plagues and you used Paul to show we are not meant for wrath. I was pointing out that we do not need to be taken from earth in a rapture to not suffer the plagues. We are under the blood of the Lamb the plagues will Passover us. Look at Rv:9 for example

[4] they were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green growth or any tree, but only those of mankind who have not the seal of God upon their foreheads;

The Seal of God is the Holy Spirit I can produce a dozen verses that say it. You get the Holy Spirit when you are Born Again and you are protected under the Blood of the Lamb. So the plagues will Passover you.

There is not pre trib Pre wrath pre anything rapture there does not need to be. We are caught up to heaven at the last trumpet When Jesus Appears with the Angels Rv 19:11-16. Up until then we are protected from the plagues and are do not suffer wrath because we are under the Blood of The Lamb.

 

[AdB]

Hi AdB



So was I, you stated that Christians suffer tribulation but not the plagues and you used Paul to show we are not meant for wrath. I was pointing out that we do not need to be taken from earth in a rapture to not suffer the plagues. We are under the blood of the Lamb the plagues will Passover us. Look at Rv:9 for example

[4] they were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green growth or any tree, but only those of mankind who have not the seal of God upon their foreheads;

The Seal of God is the Holy Spirit I can produce a dozen verses that say it. You get the Holy Spirit when you are Born Again and you are protected under the Blood of the Lamb. So the plagues will Passover you.

There is not pre trib Pre wrath pre anything rapture there does not need to be. We are caught up to heaven at the last trumpet When Jesus Appears with the Angels Rv 19:11-16. Up until then we are protected from the plagues and are do not suffer wrath because we are under the Blood of The Lamb.

Then who are the people in the Great Multitude in Rev 7:9-17 and where are they and at what time?

Edit: Technically you are correct that God could indeed keep us save from His Wrath even while not taking us up into Heaven. But that would be nothing short of a miraculeus mind blowing experience! Can you imaging these multitudes of people from all around the globe somehow staying completely untouched while the world is being obliterated?
I don't think this concept is described anywhere in scripture, and I actually don't understand why you think the above described situation is believed, but not God taking His own right into Heaven where He is?

 

[Douggg]

Hi AdB



So was I, you stated that Christians suffer tribulation but not the plagues and you used Paul to show we are not meant for wrath. I was pointing out that we do not need to be taken from earth in a rapture to not suffer the plagues. We are under the blood of the Lamb the plagues will Passover us. Look at Rv:9 for example

[4] they were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green growth or any tree, but only those of mankind who have not the seal of God upon their foreheads;

The Seal of God is the Holy Spirit I can produce a dozen verses that say it. You get the Holy Spirit when you are Born Again and you are protected under the Blood of the Lamb. So the plagues will Passover you.

There is not pre trib Pre wrath pre anything rapture there does not need to be. We are caught up to heaven at the last trumpet When Jesus Appears with the Angels Rv 19:11-16. Up until then we are protected from the plagues and are do not suffer wrath because we are under the Blood of The Lamb.

Those are Christians in verse 4, yes. But they did not become Christians until after the rapture had taken place.

The rapture can take place anytime before the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood (which that act triggers the beginning years of the Day of the Lord).

 

[AdB]

Why don't you look at my chart again. The abomination of desolation is in Matthew 24:15, to happen in the End Times, in our near future.

On my chart, Matthew 24:15-51 is in the End Times column, when Israel is a sovereign nation again, in 1948.

View attachment 306112

But do you think the 1st until 5th seal are the same events as Matt 24:1-14 / Mark 13:1-13 / Luke 21:5-19?

 

[Douggg]

But do you think the 1st until 5th seal are the same events as Matt 24:1-14 / Mark 13:1-13 / Luke 21:5-19?

No, I do not.

The scroll, opened as the seals are removed, is specific to the 7 year 70th week - which ends with Jesus's return coming in great glory and power.

The rider on the white horse in first seal is the Antichrist.
The rider on the red horse in the second seal is war that breaks out when the Antichrist reveals that he is is not the messiah as the Jews will have thought initially.
The rider on the black horse in the third seal is when the trumpet judgments begin of the great tribulation.
The rider on the pale horse in the fourth seal is at the worst of the great tribulation.
The fifth seal martyrs are the great tribulation martyrs.
The sixth seal is the parting of the cosmos, and the world seeing Jesus before the throne of God, sickle in hand, to revenge the martyring of the great tribulation saints. The sign of the Son of Man in heaven in Matthew 24:30a.

 

[AdB]

No, I do not.

The scroll, opened as the seals are removed, is specific to the 7 year 70th week - which ends with Jesus's return coming in great glory and power.

The rider on the white horse in first seal is the Antichrist.
The rider on the red horse in the second seal is war that breaks out when the Antichrist reveals that he is is not the messiah as the Jews will have thought initially.
The rider on the black horse in the third seal is when the trumpet judgments begin of the great tribulation.
The rider on the pale horse in the fourth seal is at the worst of the great tribulation.
The fifth seal martyrs are the great tribulation martyrs.
The sixth seal is the parting of the cosmos, and the world seeing Jesus before the throne of God, sickle in hand, to revenge the martyring of the great tribulation saints. The sign of the Son of Man in heaven in Matthew 24:30a.

You are given a bunch of speculations here, but what is the scriptural basis for all this?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Paul was communicating to the Corinthians decades before Revelation was written.
The Corinthians would have no idea what Paul was talking about if Paul was referring to the 7th trumpet judgement. Paul gave no explanation of what it was, so I don't think it's the 7th trumpet judgement.
Because THAT Trumpet, is one of pronouncing judgement, not a call to convocation.
The Trumpet Paul is referring to is a call to convocation, calling your army, not pronouncing judgement.

That is simply not true. I really wish you would stop saying this. The following verse, is, of course, related to the seventh trumpet.

Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

This describes both a pronouncement of judgment AND a call to convocation. So, it's wrong to say that the 7th trumpet can't be the same trumpet as the last trumpet because the last trumpet is supposedly only a call to convocation and the 7th trumpet supposedly is only a pronouncement of judgment.

 

[AdB]

That is simply not true. I really wish you would stop saying this. The following verse, is, of course, related to the seventh trumpet.

Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

This describes both a pronouncement of judgment AND a call to convocation. So, it's wrong to say that the 7th trumpet can't be the same trumpet as the last trumpet because the last trumpet is supposedly only a call to convocation and the 7th trumpet supposedly is only a pronouncement of judgment.

So where exactly in Rev 11:15-19 do you read anything about gathering of believers?

 

[Douggg]

You are given a bunch of speculations here, but what is the scriptural basis for all this?

1Thessalonians5.

In 1Thessalonians5:3, the world will be saying peace and safety, and then sudden destruction will come upon them, as the Day of the Lord begins - containing God's wrath verse 9.

In Revelation 6, first comes the rider on the white horse - a messianic figure, leading to the world to saying peace and safety.

Followed by the red horse as war breaks out - the sudden destruction of the Day of the Lord begins. And gets progressively worse by the riders on the black horse, then the pale horse, as indicated by the text of Revelation 6. The severity of the great tribulation, Matthew 24:21-22.

Jesus appears in heaven in the sixth seal, the sign of the Son of Man in heaven in Matthew 24:30a. In Revelation 19, Jesus comes from heaven down to earth in power and great glory, the Coming of the Son of Man, Matthew 24:30b.

 

[Douggg]

You are taking my comments way out of context, we're talking about the rapture...

From 1Thessalonians5:9-11...

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

...the basis for the timing of the rapture. The church may or may not be here when the false messianic age of the rider on the white horse begins. Matthew 24:32-51 is Jesus's message to the church - watch and be ready.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So where exactly in Rev 11:15-19 do you read anything about gathering of believers?

It says in verse 18 that the seventh trumpet is the time "for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small". Wouldn't they need to be gathered in order for them to receive their rewards? I would think so.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

1Thessalonians5.

In 1Thessalonians5:3, the world will be saying peace and safety, and then sudden destruction will come upon them, as the Day of the Lord begins - containing God's wrath verse 9.

In Revelation 6, first comes the rider on the white horse - a messianic figure, leading to the world to saying peace and safety.

Followed by the red horse as war breaks out - the sudden destruction of the Day of the Lord begins.

Paul indicated that "they shall not escape" the sudden destruction that will come (1 Thess 5:3). Who exactly do you think he was talking about that "shall not escape"? Who do you think will escape and how?

Peter also wrote about the day of the Lord in 2 Peter 3:10-12. He said it would bring destruction by fire upon the entire earth. No wonder Paul said "they shall not escape". Who could escape that? No mortals could.

Jesus appears in heaven in the sixth seal, the sign of the Son of Man in heaven in Matthew 24:30a. In Revelation 19, Jesus comes from heaven down to earth in power and great glory, the Coming of the Son of Man, Matthew 24:30b.

Can you show me in Revelation 19 and/or Matthew 24 where it says something about Jesus coming down to earth?

 

[Jamdoc]

That is simply not true. I really wish you would stop saying this. The following verse, is, of course, related to the seventh trumpet.

Revelation 11:18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

This describes both a pronouncement of judgment AND a call to convocation. So, it's wrong to say that the 7th trumpet can't be the same trumpet as the last trumpet because the last trumpet is supposedly only a call to convocation and the 7th trumpet supposedly is only a pronouncement of judgment.

The 7th trumpet judgement is sounded by angels, not by Jesus.

Zechariah 9:14

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

The trumpet where He appears over us as lightning from the east into the west?
That's blown by Jesus.

 

[AdB]

In Revelation 6, first comes the rider on the white horse - a messianic figure, leading to the world to saying peace and safety.

Just this one alone... How do you read above interpretation in Rev 6:2 ?
So I looked and saw a white horse, and its rider held a bow. And he was given a crown, and he rode out to overcome and conquer.

 

[AdB]

The church may or may not be here when the false messianic age of the rider on the white horse begins.

2 Thes 2:3
Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.

 

[Douggg]

Paul indicated that "they shall not escape" the sudden destruction that will come (1 Thess 5:3). Who exactly do you think he was talking about that "shall not escape"? Who do you think will escape and how?

The escape term, regarding Christians escaping, in not in 1Thessalonians5:3. It only talks about the unsaved saying peace and safety not escaping, 1Thessalonians5:3.

The escape term regarding Christians is in Luke 21:34-36, which also refers to the rapture.

Peter also wrote about the day of the Lord in 2 Peter 3:10-12. He said it would bring destruction by fire upon the entire earth. No wonder Paul said "they shall not escape". Who could escape that? No mortals could.

It is not just the earth.

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

The Day of the Lord lasts for eternity. The beginning of the Day of the Lord is in 1Thesslaonians5 and 2Thessalonians2:4.... and has no end.

The destruction of the present heavens and earth will be right before the Great White Throne judgment.

 

[AdB]

It says in verse 18 that the seventh trumpet is the time "for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small". Wouldn't they need to be gathered in order for them to receive their rewards? I would think so.

Yes, they are already gathered during the rapture at the 6th seal...

 

[AdB]

The 7th trumpet judgement is sounded by angels, not by Jesus.

Zechariah 9:14


The trumpet where He appears over us as lightning from the east into the west?
That's blown by Jesus.

1 Thess 4:16-17

 

[Douggg]

Just this one alone... How do you read above interpretation in Rev 6:2 ?
So I looked and saw a white horse, and its rider held a bow. And he was given a crown, and he rode out to overcome and conquer.

Jesus is the true messiah, riding the white horse in Revelation 19, with the diadem upon His head.

The rider on the white horse is a messianic figure, but not Jesus. The crown he will be given is that he will be anointed the King of Israel, but coming in his own name (John 5:43).

Jesus in John 12:12-15, was hailed the King of Israel, coming in the name of the Lord by his followers. Later rejected by his own people, in Jerusalem, to be their king. Mark 15:32, fortifies the term "Christ" as being the King of Israel.

The Antichrist is be the "another", that the Jews will embrace as their King of Israel, messiah. Messiah and Christ are interchangeable - John 4:25. "Anti" is a prefix of "against" and/or "instead of".

The person prior to being anointed the King of Israel - will be the little horn person.

To ride out to overcome and conquest - the little horn person "stands up" in Daniel 8:23. And idiom for prepares to go to war. What war? The immanency of the Gog/Magog attack on Israel.

In Judaism, the Jews believe that the messiah will fight the battles of God in defending Israel. They have a scriptural basis for their belief. Following those battles will be the
Olam Ha-ba - i.e. the messianic age in English.

From...Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

"Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist"

There's the setup for the world saying peace and safety. It will think the Antichrist person is the Jewish messiah, to bring peace into the world.

Following Gog/Magog, the little horn person will be anointed the King of Israel. On my chart below.