Olivet Discourse & Rev 6

[Jamdoc]

Hi Adb

Ok so I have read it. I see a few things right off that do not add up to me. The explanation of how the last Trumpet in Cor is not the seventh Trumpet in RV makes no sense at all. There is no scripture to backs this assumption up only the teachings of men who wish to say that The Great Tribulation does not include the trumpets. Because we do not suffer the wrath of God.

I have one Question Did the Hebrews have to be whisked away to be safe from God's wrath on Egypt when the plagues fell. Of Course not they were ......wait for it....................because it is sooooo GREAT..............They were protected from the Plagues by the Blood of the Lamb...Hey .wow ..isn't that coool Jesus died at 3Pm on the day of Passover....he literally is the Sacrificial Lamb.

The second thing is this. In the paper the Beast from the pit is running around on Earth Before the Pit is opened at the fifth Trumpet. Sorry but that is impossible.

Paul was communicating to the Corinthians decades before Revelation was written.
The Corinthians would have no idea what Paul was talking about if Paul was referring to the 7th trumpet judgement. Paul gave no explanation of what it was, so I don't think it's the 7th trumpet judgement.
Because THAT Trumpet, is one of pronouncing judgement, not a call to convocation.
The Trumpet Paul is referring to is a call to convocation, calling your army, not pronouncing judgement.

I'm more apt to believe that it is referring to the Feast of Trumpets, rather than the 7th trumpet judgement.
The Feast of Trumpets is a call to convocation, a gathering.
It is also the first of the currently unfulfilled Fall feasts, where Jesus fulfilled passover, unleavened bread, first fruits, and Pentecost in His first coming.
Before you say date setting, Feast of Trumpets takes place over 2 days because they can't predict when the new moon will be sighted.
Secondly, after the midpoint there will be 3 potential feasts of trumpets, you don't know which of them is the "last".

Not to mention, feast of trumpets is something the Corinthians would know, as Paul taught from the Old Testament.

Leviticus 23

23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

 

[AdB]

I think Revelation 7 gives enough distinction, that the first 144000 are converts from the Tribes of Israel, and the great multitude that is after is from every tribe, tongue and nation.
They aren't the same group.

The gentiles are grafted onto the olive root of Israel (Rom 11) so the 144000 could be a metaphore of completeness of the number that have been raptured, in reality it is a great multitude from every tribe, tongue and nation.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hello

aul was communicating to the Corinthians decades before Revelation was written.
The Corinthians would have no idea what Paul was talking about if Paul was referring to the 7th trumpet judgement. Paul gave no explanation of what it was, so I don't think it's the 7th trumpet judgement.
Because THAT Trumpet, is one of pronouncing judgement, not a call to convocation.
The Trumpet Paul is referring to is a call to convocation, calling your army, not pronouncing judgement.

Well lets look at it shall we

[52] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Ok So in the twinkling of an eye as lightening from east to west

It doesn't matter if the Corinthians knew about the seven trumpets of Revelation. Paul clearly new there was more than one at at the last one the Kingdom shall come and the Inheritance with it.

This is clearly the same as

[7] but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God, as he announced to his servants the prophets, should be fulfilled.

[15] Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever."

 

[AdB]

I have one Question Did the Hebrews have to be whisked away to be safe from God's wrath on Egypt when the plagues fell. Of Course not they were ......wait for it....................because it is sooooo GREAT..............They were protected from the Plagues by the Blood of the Lamb...Hey .wow ..isn't that coool Jesus died at 3Pm on the day of Passover....he literally is the Sacrificial Lamb.

The Exodus plagues were locally in Egypt, the wrathof God will be global, that does give a quite different setting. Noahs flood is a better comparison in that respect, even as Jesus actually makes this comparison... There Noah and his family (everybody that was willing to be saved) were taken out of the existing world into the ark (Jesus is our Ark) with the door shut behind them by God Himself...

The 2nd beast in Rev 11 comes "out of the Earth" there is no mention of a pit...

 

[AdB]

Paul was communicating to the Corinthians decades before Revelation was written.
The Corinthians would have no idea what Paul was talking about if Paul was referring to the 7th trumpet judgement. Paul gave no explanation of what it was, so I don't think it's the 7th trumpet judgement.
Because THAT Trumpet, is one of pronouncing judgement, not a call to convocation.
The Trumpet Paul is referring to is a call to convocation, calling your army, not pronouncing judgement.

I'm more apt to believe that it is referring to the Feast of Trumpets, rather than the 7th trumpet judgement.
The Feast of Trumpets is a call to convocation, a gathering.
It is also the first of the currently unfulfilled Fall feasts, where Jesus fulfilled passover, unleavened bread, first fruits, and Pentecost in His first coming.
Before you say date setting, Feast of Trumpets takes place over 2 days because they can't predict when the new moon will be sighted.
Secondly, after the midpoint there will be 3 potential feasts of trumpets, you don't know which of them is the "last".

Not to mention, feast of trumpets is something the Corinthians would know, as Paul taught from the Old Testament.

Leviticus 23

This is very interesting, I’ll do a bit more study on this! Do you perhaps have a website that gives some detailed info on this?

 

[Douggg]

To me it seems that events named in the Olivet Discourse has parallels with the events named in Rev 6.

The Olivet discourse covers the future of the Jews beginning at the time of the disciples.

The olivet discourse verses break down their near term future, their long term future, and their future in the end times.

While Revelation 6 is only events to take place in the world in the end times.

The end times in Matthew 24 begins in verse 15.

____________________________________________________________

Revelation 6 events in the end times.

Rider on the white horse - the Antichrist - false messianic age begins.

He later claims to have achieved God-hood. Ending false messianic age. War breaks out, represented by the rider on the red horse.

The revealed man of sin is killed and brought back to life as the beast.

God's judgement begin to fall upon the earth

The black horse rider - starvation, sickness. 666 buy/sell law goes into effect. People are dying because the trumpets have begun.

Rider on the pale horse - great tribulation at it's worst.

 

[AdB]

[7] but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God, as he announced to his servants the prophets, should be fulfilled.

[15] Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever."

These texts speak of the completion of God's complete redemption plan, the rapture is only one part of that.

 

[AdB]

The Olivet discourse covers the future of the Jews beginning at the time of the disciples.

The olivet discourse verses break down their near term future, their long term future, and their future in the end times.

While Revelation 6 is only events to take place in the world in the end times.

The end times in Matthew 24 begins in verse 15.


View attachment 306106

These events that seem to parallel the first 4 seals were called the birth pains, these normally increase with time untill the moment or birth arrives...

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

These texts speak of the completion of God's complete redemption plan, the rapture is only one part of that.

Ah No these represent exactly what Scripture says they represent the end of the mystery the words of the prophets are fulfilled. The Day of The Lord has Arrived. Which means the first resurrection those alive caught up in the air and the reward for the patient and worth and slain and the setting up of the Kingdom. there is no pre anything rapture.

 

[AdB]

Hi



Ah No these represent exactly what Scripture says they represent the end of the mystery the words of the prophets are fulfilled. The Day of The Lord has Arrived. Which means the first resurrection those alive caught up in the air and the reward for the patient and worth and slain and the setting up of the Kingdom. there is no pre anything rapture.

Here you only make a statement, but can you provide scriptual backup for this?

 

[Jamdoc]

This is very interesting, I’ll do a bit more study on this! Do you perhaps have a website that gives some detailed info on this?

No, not specifically a website, but on Youtube look up Nelson Walters, he's one of the only pre wrath prophecy channels I've really seen a lot of stuff from, and he's postulated this idea of feast of trumpets and many Pre-Trib teachers lean towards it as well.

I'm not dogmatic about it, but I think it more likely than the 7th trumpet judgement.

 

[Jamdoc]

The gentiles are grafted onto the olive root of Israel (Rom 11) so the 144000 could be a metaphore of completeness of the number that have been raptured, in reality it is a great multitude from every tribe, tongue and nation.

if that were the case John wouldn't have made a distinction, of first, a number, a large number of people, but still a finite number, specifying which tribe they came from, and then jumping to an uncountable multitude and specifying that these came from all tribes, tongues and nations.

John makes a distinction, I don't think we should blur the line by making abstractions where John does not.

 

[Jamdoc]

Hello



Well lets look at it shall we

[52] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Ok So in the twinkling of an eye as lightening from east to west

It doesn't matter if the Corinthians knew about the seven trumpets of Revelation. Paul clearly new there was more than one at at the last one the Kingdom shall come and the Inheritance with it.

This is clearly the same as

[7] but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God, as he announced to his servants the prophets, should be fulfilled.

[15] Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Why weren't the first 6 trumpets included in the Olivet Discourse?
Why was the sign that immediately preceded the coming of Jesus, and signalling the end of the Great Tribulation, the signs corresponding to the 6th seal, and not the 7th trumpet?

 

[Jamdoc]

The Olivet discourse covers the future of the Jews beginning at the time of the disciples.

The olivet discourse verses break down their near term future, their long term future, and their future in the end times.

While Revelation 6 is only events to take place in the world in the end times.

The end times in Matthew 24 begins in verse 15.


View attachment 306106

____________________________________________________________

Revelation 6 events in the end times.

Rider on the white horse - the Antichrist - false messianic age begins.

He later claims to have achieved God-hood. Ending false messianic age. War breaks out, represented by the rider on the red horse.

The revealed man of sin is killed and brought back to life as the beast.

God's judgement begin to fall upon the earth

The black horse rider - starvation, sickness. 666 buy/sell law goes into effect. People are dying because the trumpets have begun.

Rider on the pale horse - great tribulation at it's worst.

The Olivet Discourse was not to "unbelieving Israel"
It was to the first Christians.
the men who would plant churches.
They are not "Old Covenant Israel"
these are the men who quite literally drank from the cup that sealed the New Covenant.

I hate that lie so much that the Olivet Discourse was not to believers.
That's a lie sustained to disregard it by Pretribulationists because it directly challenges their position.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

The Exodus plagues were locally in Egypt, the wrathof God will be global, that does give a quite different setting.

So am I to understand you as saying Jesus sacrifice can only protect you locally not globally?

The 2nd beast in Rev 11 comes "out of the Earth" there is no mention of a pit...

Is it your position the pit is in the air or in the ocean?

pit
/pit/

noun

1. 1.
   a large hole in the ground.

ground
/ɡround/

noun

1. 1.
   the solid surface of the earth.

Why Thank you Webster's for clearing that up for us.

Let me ask you this what is the symbols for a Lamb in the NT Who is the Lamb

 

[AdB]

if that were the case John wouldn't have made a distinction, of first, a number, a large number of people, but still a finite number, specifying which tribe they came from, and then jumping to an uncountable multitude and specifying that these came from all tribes, tongues and nations.

John makes a distinction, I don't think we should blur the line by making abstractions where John does not.

I also initially have the idea that these are separate groups, just keeping an open mind that it may be revering to the same group but in two different ways to convey two different truths about this group...

 

[Jamdoc]

I also initially have the idea that these are separate groups, just keeping an open mind that it may be revering to the same group but in two different ways to convey two different truths about this group...

One aspect of them actually being genetic descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel that I find encouraging is that many of those tribes, in fact all of them except the tribe of Judah, some from the tribe of Benjamin, and some Levites don't know they belong to one of the lost Northern Tribes. Those were all kind of wiped out as distinct people groups after the Assyrians conquered Israel. Some ended up in Judea and besically became assimilated into Judah, but still kept their distinct Hebrew identity. Others got assimilated into the gentiles.
As far as we know right now, there are no Reubenites or Gadites out there. Somehow God has preserved at least 12000 of each. I wonder if He's counting people that have lived as gentiles for thousands of years or only those who kept a Hebrew cultural identity.
But that's encouraging that God can preserve something we thought was lost.

 

[Douggg]

The Olivet Discourse was not to "unbelieving Israel"
It was to the first Christians.
the men who would plant churches.
They are not "Old Covenant Israel"
these are the men who quite literally drank from the cup that sealed the New Covenant.

I hate that lie so much that the Olivet Discourse was not to believers.
That's a lie sustained to disregard it by Pretribulationists because it directly challenges their position.

Jesus was telling the disciples what was going to happen between their day and His return.

History bears out that the temple was destroyed in 70ad. And following 70ad, the Jews were forced into the nations for 2000 years. And in 1948, Israel a nation again back in the land.

 

[AdB]

So am I to understand you as saying Jesus sacrifice can only protect you locally not globally?

You are taking my comments way out of context, we're talking about the rapture...

Is it your position the pit is in the air or in the ocean?

I thought you were talking about Rev 13:11
Regarding "Beast out of the abyss" this is only mentioned in Rev 11:7 and Rev 17:8 where the beast comes "out of the Abyss".
In Rev 9:1-2 the "PIT of the abyss" is opened

 

[Jamdoc]

Jesus was telling the disciples what was going to happen between their day and His return.

History bears out that the temple was destroyed in 70ad. And following 70ad, the Jews were forced into the nations for 2000 years. And in 1948, Israel a nation again back in the land.

But the Olivet discourse was not about that, The Abomination of Desolation takes place in our future.
Now you've knee jerked into preterism. Because yes, it's an inconvenient truth to be told that Jesus was speaking to believers, not Pharisees.
If you want a prophecy from Jesus to unbelieving Jews? I have just the one.

Matthew 21

33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

That is a prophecy to the unbelieving Jews.

and so is this
Matthew 23

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

But Matthew 24 and 25?
That's to believers.
The Audience was Believers.
Christians
the first Christians.
That planted the first churches.
Pretribulationists are plenty comfortable with using Matthew 24, until Matthew 24:29-31.
They want to treat that as something different than it is, because they want to say from Matthew 24:15 onward "we won't be here"
So as far as they're concerned Matthew 24:1-14 is to them and they love repeating those parts, and Matthew 24:32-51, oh they're fine with that part.
But they dismiss Matthew 24:15-31, because it's an inconvenient truth for them. They say they're no longer part of the target audience for those verses, when those are instructions from Our Lord Jesus Christ.