Olivet Discourse & Rev 6

Douggg

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2 Thes 2:3
Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed.
That will tale place around three years after the person is anointed the King of Israel. The exact day is not known, and cannot be determined.

The Antichrist, by the transgression of desolation act (Daniel 8:12-13), reveals himself to be the man of sin, and not the messiah after all as the Jews will initially believe.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The 7th trumpet judgement is sounded by angels, not by Jesus.

Zechariah 9:14


The trumpet where He appears over us as lightning from the east into the west?
That's blown by Jesus.
Oh, you mean the time when His elect are gathered to Him (Matthew 24:29-31)? Yeah, that will be an archangel blowing that trumpet. Nice try, though.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
 
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Jamdoc

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Oh, you mean the time when His elect are gathered to Him (Matthew 24:29-31)? Yeah, that will be an archangel blowing that trumpet. Nice try, though.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The voice
not the trumpet
the trump is of God
the voice of the Archangel?

Revelation 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The escape term, regarding Christians escaping, in not in 1Thessalonians5:3. It only talks about the unsaved saying peace and safety not escaping, 1Thessalonians5:3.

The escape term regarding Christians is in Luke 21:34-36, which also refers to the rapture.
Yeah, that is who will escape. Christians. Unbelievers will not escape and will all be killed. This will happen on the day Christ returns, according to 1 Thess 4:5:6 and 2 Peter 3:3-13.

Did I say it was just the earth? No. But, my point only related to the earth where those who will not escape will be, so I felt no need to also mention that the heavens will be burned up at that time.

The Day of the Lord lasts for eternity. The beginning of the Day of the Lord is in 1Thesslaonians5 and 2Thessalonians2:4.... and has no end.

The destruction of the present heavens and earth will be right before the Great White Throne judgment.
What's this "beginning of the day of the Lord" stuff? Where is that concept indicated in 1 Thess 5:2-3 or 2 Peter 3:10-12? Those passages indicate that the day of the Lord will bring with it "sudden destruction" by fire upon the entire earth from which unbelievers "shall not escape".

Both Peter and Paul indicated that this destruction could potentially come in the lifetimes of their readers, which is why they both warned their readers to be ready and watch and be careful to pay attention to how they were living their lives. They were warning their readers to be careful how they were living because they wanted their readers to be ready and remain faithful and not be among those who the "sudden destruction" will come upon. What that being the case, how can the destruction that the day of the Lord brings not happen until 1000+ years after Christ's return as you believe? That would mean Peter and Paul were warning their readers about being ready for it for no reason since, in your view, it couldn't possibly happen to them.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The voice
not the trumpet
the trump is of God
the voice of the Archangel?

Revelation 14
It's all the same thing. By God's command, the archangel's voice announces the return of Christ. It's never talking about literal trumpets. Do you think the seals and bowls are literal, too? If so, how can plagues literally pour out of literal bowls? Come on.

Anyway, the trumpet sounds have to do with shouts or calls coming from angels which are figuratively described as trumpets because of how they are announcing something important that is about to happen.

Correct, the Trump of God, not the Trump of the 7th Angel
Aren't all the trumpets God's trumpets regardless of who is blowing them? You're really reaching here.
 
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Douggg

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What's this "beginning of the day of the Lord" stuff? Where is that concept indicated in 1 Thess 5:2-3 or 2 Peter 3:10-12? Those passages indicate that the day of the Lord will bring with it "sudden destruction" by fire upon the entire earth from which unbelievers "shall not escape".
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

That is the beginning of the day of the Lord.

In 2Thessalonians2, Paul comforts the Thessalonians that the day of Christ, which is the day of the Lord, had not begun yet. And Paul informs them when the day of the Lord begins.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul is referring them back to what he told them in 1Thessalonians5.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Paul was inferring to the rapture/resurrection event must take place before the man of sin reveals himself as such, by committing the transgression of desolation act in verse 4.

Paul was not saying anything about heaven and earth being burnt up, in regards to the beginning of the Day of the Lord. That comes much later right before the Great White Throne judgment.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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How does it come as a thief in the night in your view, which implies that it comes unexpectedly? Please explain that.

For my view, it's easy to explain. People will be thinking (wrongly) that everything is peaceful and safe and will have no idea of what's coming and then sudden destruction comes upon them unexpectedly on the day Christ returns and they won't be able to escape it.

In 2Thessalonians2, Paul comforts the Thessalonians that the day of Christ, which is the day of the Lord, had not begun yet. And Paul informs them when the day of the Lord begins.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul is referring them back to what he told them in 1Thessalonians5.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Paul was inferring to the rapture/resurrection event must take place before the man of sin reveals himself as such, by committing the transgression of desolation act in verse 4.

Paul was not saying anything about heaven and earth being burnt up, in regards to the beginning of the Day of the Lord. That comes much later right before the Great White Throne judgment.
I truly have no idea of what you're trying to say here. For example, what do you mean "the rapture/resurrection event must take place before the man of sin reveals himself as such"? Where are you getting that from? Please be specific.

I see that Paul says that a falling away from the faith would occur before the day of the Lord, but nothing about the rapture/resurrection event taking place before the man of sin reveals himself.
 
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Jamdoc

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It's all the same thing. By God's command, the archangel's voice announces the return of Christ. It's never talking about literal trumpets. Do you think the seals and bowls are literal, too? If so, how can plagues literally pour out of literal bowls? Come on.

Anyway, the trumpet sounds have to do with shouts or calls coming from angels which are figuratively described as trumpets because of how they are announcing something important that is about to happen.

Aren't all the trumpets God's trumpets regardless of who is blowing them? You're really reaching here.
"It's all the same thing"
By your interpretation Revelation should just be "Jesus returns, everything instantly explodes in fire queue Revelation 21 and 22 the end amen"
 
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Jamdoc

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How does it come as a thief in the night in your view, which implies that it comes unexpectedly? Please explain that.

For my view, it's easy to explain. People will be thinking (wrongly) that everything is peaceful and safe and will have no idea of what's coming and then sudden destruction comes upon them unexpectedly on the day Christ returns and they won't be able to escape it.

I truly have no idea of what you're trying to say here. For example, what do you mean "the rapture/resurrection event must take place before the man of sin reveals himself as such"? Where are you getting that from? Please be specific.

I see that Paul says that a falling away from the faith would occur before the day of the Lord, but nothing about the rapture/resurrection event taking place before the man of sin reveals himself.

and yet you place it at the 7th trumpet, did you forget the absolute calamity that happens in the first 6?
There's no peace and safety for anyone if you're talking 7th trumpet or after the 7 bowls.

There can only be peace and safety under either (begrudgingly admittedly) pretribulationism, or pre wrath, and for pre wrath the "peace and safety" is only for those who take the mark of the beast.

Post tribulationism doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.
 
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Jamdoc

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2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

That is the beginning of the day of the Lord.

In 2Thessalonians2, Paul comforts the Thessalonians that the day of Christ, which is the day of the Lord, had not begun yet. And Paul informs them when the day of the Lord begins.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul is referring them back to what he told them in 1Thessalonians5.

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Paul was inferring to the rapture/resurrection event must take place before the man of sin reveals himself as such, by committing the transgression of desolation act in verse 4.

Paul was not saying anything about heaven and earth being burnt up, in regards to the beginning of the Day of the Lord. That comes much later right before the Great White Throne judgment.

Pretribulationists butcher 2 Thessalonians 2.
They cherrypick a translation to make 2 Thessalonians 2:3 mean what they want..
OR
they use 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 and kind of forget 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

Paul's talking about the rapture, the return of Christ and gathering to Him.
He says that can't happen until the falling away and revealing of Antichrist.

The restrainer can be taken out of the way by other means other than rapture.
Did you not learn the lesson given to us by 2020?
All those churches closing up their doors and being effectively removed by civil government, all those people stopping going to church, all that reduced influence in the world by the Church....
and they're still on earth.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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"It's all the same thing"
By your interpretation Revelation should just be "Jesus returns, everything instantly explodes in fire queue Revelation 21 and 22 the end amen"
I was only referring specifically to the loud command, trumpet of God and voice of the archangel mentioned in 1 Thess 4:14-17 as all being the same, so there's no need for this childish overreaction on your part.

I believe that everything is burned up when Jesus returns because that is exactly what it says in 2 Peter 3:3-13. Do you plan on ever giving a convincing interpretation of 2 Peter 3 that would indicate otherwise? I'm not even sure of how you interpret it at this point. Not long ago you said you see it as literal fire coming down on the earth but not until the end of the thousand year long day of the Lord.

But, then, earlier today, you seemed to indicate that you think the fire mentioned in 2 Peter 3 is figurative. So, which is it? Is it literal fire or figurative? If you agree that it's literal fire then where does it indicate that it doesn't happen upon the initial arrival of the day of the Lord? If you think it's figurative fire, then where is there any indication of that?
 
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Jamdoc

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I was only referring specifically to the loud command, trumpet of God and voice of the archangel mentioned in 1 Thess 4:14-17 as all being the same, so there's no need for this childish overreaction on your part.

I believe that everything is burned up when Jesus returns because that is exactly what it says in 2 Peter 3:3-13. Do you plan on ever giving a convincing interpretation of 2 Peter 3 that would indicate otherwise? I'm not even sure of how you interpret it at this point. Not long ago you said you see it as literal fire coming down on the earth but not until the end of the thousand year long day of the Lord.

But, then, earlier today, you seemed to indicate that you think the fire mentioned in 2 Peter 3 is figurative. So, which is it? Is it literal fire or figurative? If you agree that it's literal fire then where does it indicate that it doesn't happen upon the initial arrival of the day of the Lord? If you think it's figurative fire, then where is there any indication of that?

That's correct.
the end of the Millennium has literal fire consuming everything, like 2 Peter 3
fire is NOT coming down and consuming everything in Revelation 19, Revelation 14, or Revelation 6.

You add it to them when the bible doesn't.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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and yet you place it at the 7th trumpet, did you forget the absolute calamity that happens in the first 6?
There's no peace and safety for anyone if you're talking 7th trumpet or after the 7 bowls.
I don't take the description of what occurs with the first 6 trumpets or bowls literally the way you do. If I did then I would acknowledge that you have a point here, but I don't.

Just take the first trumpet, for example.

Revelation 8:7 7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Why would blood literally be mingled with hail and fire? What purpose would that serve? That strongly comes across as figurative language.

Also, it says a third of trees and all green grass was burned up? Think about that. How is that even possible in a literal sense? Picture fire coming down on the earth and somehow only burning up a third of the trees but all of the green grass? Aren't more than a third of the trees on earth surrounded by green grass? That would mean in some places only the grass would be burned but not the trees whose branches are hanging over the grass. It makes no sense literally.

What would even be the point of literally burning up a third of the trees and all the green grass? It has to be figurative language there.

There can only be peace and safety under either (begrudgingly admittedly) pretribulationism, or pre wrath, and for pre wrath the "peace and safety" is only for those who take the mark of the beast.

Post tribulationism doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.
No premil views make any sense whether they are pretrib, prewrath or post-trib. A vast majority of premils think all end times prophecy centers around modern day Israel and Jerusalem when the reality is that end times prophecy centers entirely around Christ and His church as well as all the forces that come against Christ and His church.
 
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Jamdoc

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I don't take the description of what occurs with the first 6 trumpets or bowls literally the way you do. If I did then I would acknowledge that you have a point here, but I don't.

Just take the first trumpet, for example.

This is why I say you just handwave everything away.

There's no point in discussing further when you do that.
 
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Douggg

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How does it come as a thief in the night in your view, which implies that it comes unexpectedly? Please explain that.
The world will be saying "peace and safety". This is at a time when God has just destroyed the Gog/Magog force.

The little horn person will have arrived in the middleeast with his EU army, on the guise of stabilizing and peace keeping in the region.

The Jews will think he is the messiah because he appears to them to meet the criteria. And the false prophet who will also surface in Israel at that time, with the Jews (Judaism) thinking he is Elijah, to meet part of their expectations.

The false prophet, taken to be Elijah, anoints the little horn person as the King of Israel. The Jews, btw, believe that the messiah has to be anointed the King of Israel by a known prophet.

So the false messiah age, of the world saying peace and safety, begins then.

The unexpected factor is when the little horn person magnifies himself in his heart (both in Daniel 8:25 and Ezekiel 28:1-10) and becomes convinced that he has achieved God-hood.

One thing to keep in mind about the little horn person is that he is into "craft", by which he has power, but it is not his own power. Daniel 8:24-25.

The craft that he will be into, being a Jew, will be kabbalah, Jewish mysticism. That's when he gets involved with Satan, thinking he is harnessing the power of the angels, to serve his ego. But in reality it will be the other way around, Satan using him.

So he gets convinced, Satan corrupting his mind, in his heart that he has achieved God-hood - and acts upon it. When without warning, totally unexpected by world, he stops the daily sacrifice that will be going on at that time. He then goes into the temple, sitting, showing to the world, that he has achieved God-hood. Ezekiel 28:1-10, is God's reaction to his audacious claim.

We can only approximate when the person commits the act of going into the temple and sitting in the place intended to be only for God.

It is possible to approximate, because the great tribulation is 1335 days long, and triggered by the abomination of desolation, the image made of the person after God has him killed and brought back to life - we can approximate that the act by the person of claiming to have achieved God-hood will be around three years after he first becomes the King of Israel, thought-to-be messiah.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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That's correct.
the end of the Millennium has literal fire consuming everything, like 2 Peter 3
Okay, so you do see it as literal fire. But, you see it coming down 1000+ years after Christ's return. However, that does not fit the context of what either Paul or Peter said about the day of the Lord.

Let's start with what Paul said about it.

1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

In verse 1, Paul was saying that he didn't need to write to them about the times and the seasons. Times and the seasons of what? The second coming of Christ that he was just writing to them about in 1 Thess 4:13-18. In those verses he talked about what will happen to believers on the day Christ returns. In 1 Thess 5:2-3 he talks about what will happen to unbelievers on that day.

Notice that Paul tells his readers in relation to the day of the Lord and the sudden destruction it will bring that they should "not sleep, as do others, but let us watch and be sober". Why would he have said that to them if the sudden destruction he talked about that would occur on the day of the Lord couldn't happen in the lifetimes of his readers? That would make no sense.

In your view it's like he was telling them to be careful to be alert and remain as "children of light" instead of children of darkness so that they would be ready and not experience the "sudden destruction" that would come 1000+ years after Christ's return? Huh?! You have Paul warning people about something that couldn't possibly happen in their lifetimes. How does that make any sense?

You do the same thing with those Peter was addressing.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Peter has a very similar message to his readers regarding the day of the Lord as Paul had for his. Like Paul, he warned his readers about being careful about what kind of people they were and to make sure they were being godly people. Why did he tell them that if what he was talking about couldn't possibly affect them in their lifetimes? That makes no sense. You're making Paul and Peter out to be deceptive false teachers because you have them warning people about things that couldn't possibly affect them personally or happen in their lifetimes. We need to think more highly of Paul and Peter than that. They warned people about their behavior before the day of the Lord because the destruction accompanying the day of the Lord could potentially arrive in their lifetimes. That's the only way to make any sense out of them warning people about the coming global destruction.

fire is NOT coming down and consuming everything in Revelation 19, Revelation 14, or Revelation 6.

You add it to them when the bible doesn't.
We've been over this. The method of destruction is not given literally in those passages. If you want to believe that Christ will slay the nations using a literal sword that comes out of His mouth, then that's on you for lacking the discernment to recognize symbolic language.

Same thing in regards to Revelation 14. If you want to think it's talking about a literal winepress being used to destroy people, then so be it, but it again shows your lack of discernment as it comes to being able to differentiate between literal and figurative language.

Same thing in regards to Revelation 6. If you want to think that stars will literally fall to the earth, then so be it, but that would show your lack of understanding that even one star falling to the earth would completely annihilate the earth. And if you want to think that heaven will literally roll up like a scroll at that time, so be it. But, it's clearly figurative language. So, Revelation 6:12-17 cannot be taken literally.

That passage does announce the time for the wrath of the Lamb to come down, but what it describes as happening at that point is not to be taken literally. It's just figuratively describing the fact that the final global wrath of the Lamb is just about to come down on the earth at that point. Which explains while there would be silence in heaven at the seventh seal because Jesus, His angels, and the souls of the dead in Christ will have departed heaven at the seventh seal. At that point the dead in Christ will be resurrected and those who are alive will join them with their changed, immortal bodies to meet Jesus "in the air". Jesus will then burn up the earth in taking vengeance on all unbelievers (2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13) which will completely catch them off guard like a thief in the night.
 
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Douggg

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For my view, it's easy to explain. People will be thinking (wrongly) that everything is peaceful and safe and will have no idea of what's coming and then sudden destruction comes upon them unexpectedly on the day Christ returns and they won't be able to escape it.
And why would the world be saying peace and saying? See, that's the problem. There's potential for war breaking out at any place in the world. And let us not forget the muslim factor.

With the destruction of Gog/Magog, that will essentially be the end of Islam. And Russia will be pruned back by the loss of so much of its military. Setting the stage for the false messianic age.
 
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This is why I say you just handwave everything away.

There's no point in discussing further when you do that.
No, I'm not. Just because I interpret some things figuratively that you intepret literally does not mean I'm just brushing those things off. That's nonsense. I'm interpreting them differently than you. You're just handwaving away the evidence I'm giving to back up my reasoning for interpreting those things figuratively. Are you afraid of what you might discover if you actually thought about what I'm saying?
 
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