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Olivet Discourse & Rev 6

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by AdB, Sep 19, 2021.

  1. AdB

    AdB Heb 11:1

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    To me it seems that events named in the Olivet Discourse has parallels with the events named in Rev 6.
    upload_2021-9-19_10-24-21.png
    I would like to know which arguments are in favor of this concept and which are arguing against this...
     
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  2. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    The pre wrath rapture is based in part on this concept.
    That what Jesus described in the Olivet Discourse leads up to the 6th seal.. and is shown to be His return and gathering of the elect.
    Go to the next chapter. Revelation 7, and what do you see? The saints having overcome Great Tribulation in heaven.

    None of the events of the trumpets and bowls are in the Olivet Discourse.
    and Jesus says that the Great Tribulation is over when the sun and moon darken, which is the sixth seal.
    It all fits like a glove.
     
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  3. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Hello

    Well you can not really say that 100% for sure.

    First seal could be

    [5] For many will come in my name, saying, `I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray.

    Many have pointed out that The White Horse is sent out conquering and to conquer and represent false Christianity.

    The Next thing Jesus says is the same as the Second Seal third and fourth seal

    [6] And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet. [7] For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places: [8] all this is but the beginning of the birth-pangs. (ie famine plague and death which always follow nation against Nation)

    You will also note that here Jesus clearly makes a connection to Daniel 11:

    [35] and some of those who are wise shall fall, to refine and to cleanse them and to make them white, until the time of the end, for it is yet for the time appointed.

    Next is the Fifth Seal and the Martyrs

    [9]"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.

    Then The Sixth Seal

    [29] "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; [30] then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory; [31] and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Then Comes the seventh seal which is all the trumpets

    The problem starts here because Jesus then jumps the time line that has been presented. This is why some are Pretrib and some are not because they disagree on wether it jumps or continues.

    Since Jesus says After the tribulation he will come that is the basis of post trib

    Pretrib believe Jesus does not jump the time line. and that what follows in verse 32 on is after the gathering of the elect.

    However if you belief Jesus jumps the time line and goes back to before verse 29 and describes the Great Tribulation then every thing here forward is the Trumpets and the bowls and that the Tribulation Jesus is speaking of is in fact the trumpets and bowls.

    Jesus gives us a warning and a hint in this message

    [37] As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man. [38] For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,

    Ok so what do we know about the days before Noah

    [4] The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.

    So here we see this is when the Angels came and took human wives. It was said the Angels saw the beauty of women their long beautiful hair and left their place in Heaven and took human wives

    So I will make no bones here many do not believe "the Sons of God" were Angels many do.

    Paul seems to suggest it.

    [10] That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels.

    Jude confirms this and says they are locked in the pit till the Day of the Lord.

    1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    Revelation confirms there are Angels in the Pit.

    [11] They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit; his name in Hebrew is Abad'don, and in Greek he is called Apol'lyon.

    So is one of the the signs Jesus talking about the fact that the Angels that took human wives are out of the pit ie: the fifth Trumpet when the pit is open. And that like in the days of Noah they are on Earth talking human wives again.

    That is what each of you must figure out for yourselves.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021
  4. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    seems like you didn't read carefully
    the seals 1-6 are shown in Olivet Discourse.
    the trumpets and bowls (wrath of God) are not

    What Jesus shows is that we have to endure tribulation (persecution), but we are not subject to the wrath of God (1 Thessalonians 5:9, Isaiah 26:19-20)

    Anything before the Sixth Seal, namely the 4th and 5th seals, are the Great Tribulation.

    However anything after the 6th seal, namely the Trumpets, are NOT Great Tribulation, they are the Wrath of God.

    Jesus defines "Great Tribulation" as starting after the midpoint, up until the sun and moon darken.

    2 key verses in Matthew 24

    This is after Matthew 24:15 mentioning the Abomination of Desolation and instructions to flee when it happens.
    3 important things here:
    1. Jesus is addressing believers, and includes them in who will see the Abomination of Desolation. No it's not to unbelieving Jews, it's to Christians, the first Christians. So yes, Christians will see this event.
    2. Jesus defines the "Great Tribulation" as happening after this, not before, "for then shall be great tribulation". the "For then" qualifies that this happens after the midpoint.
    3. Jesus says that for the elect's sake, the days are cut short. The days in question are the 1260 days given to Antichrist to rule. For our sake, Jesus will come earlier than the 1260 days. That is why no man knows the day or hour. Because the days are cut short an unspecified amount of time.
    It's not Armageddon/Revelation 19. Satan knows how to count to 1260 days after his man declares himself to be God in the temple. He knows when and where Jesus will be for Armageddon, he has an army already there waiting according to Revelation 16.

    Also important, Matthew 24:29
    By Jesus' definition, the Great Tribulation is over at this point, the sun and moon do not darken, until the Great Tribulation is over.
    and that happens at Revelation 6:12.

    So "the seven year tribulation" is an absolute farce of a terminology. Because it ignores what Jesus considers the Great Tribulation to be. It's not 7 years
    It's not even 3.5 years
    we don't know how long it is, but it is less than 3.5 years in length.


    Now as to the mark of the beast... because yes, that is tribulation, and if you read the book of revelation as being totally in Chronological order, then it'll seem like that doesn't work.

    Why?
    Because the book is not in Chronological order.
    There are duplicated events, showing that in fact, Revelation has 2 versions of the same Narrative.
    Chapters 4-11, and Chapters 11-20.

    why can I say this?
    Because Revelation 10 exists.

    Revelation 10:7
    The 7th trumpet is the last event in that sequence.
    Chapter 12 takes us back to the first coming of Christ. It's an obvious reset in Chronology.
    The Mark of the Beast is part of what's going on during the 5th seal.
    For most people in the world, life will be normal, they'll be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, etc.
    I think the first 4 seals set up the Antichrist's Kingdom, they happen before the 70th week possibly.
    But whatever happens, they reach a "new normal" after the 4th seal.
    So only the Christians and Jews get persecuted in the 5th seal, according to Revelation 12.. first Jews, then Christians.
    Rest of the world? "new normal".
    That is how the 6th seal can work and fulfill Matthew 24.
     
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  5. AdB

    AdB Heb 11:1

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    I think the reference to the temple's destruction (Matt 24:2 / Mark 14:2 / Luke 21:6) also may be aligning with the first seal?

    I don't see how you see a link between the Olivet Discourse and Dan 11:35 specifically?

    There is no specific alignment in the 6th seal to Matt 24:31 and Mark 13:27, but these events do seem to be happening together.

    From Matt 24:32 onwards don't seem to be chronological events in sequence after verse 31, but rather parables to indicate further signs and warnings for those times...

    Not sure about your idea around the nephilim though...
     
  6. AdB

    AdB Heb 11:1

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    I think a lot of what you stated is more or less the same as what I wrote in attached document, letme know what you think of it...
     

    Attached Files:

  7. grafted branch

    grafted branch Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I wouldn’t necessarily argue against the concept you have in the grid but the third seal representing famine in my opinion has to be incorrect. I studied this some time ago and this is what I came up with.



    Since only 4 types of food are mentioned in Revelation 6:6 I’m not going to speculate here on what happens to other types of food; it is likely that if wine and olive oil are available then grapes, raisins, and olives would also be available, but I will only include the foods that are specifically mentioned. Also we only know the cost of wheat and barley; if famine is assumed then we also have to assume that oil and wine are readily available for a nominal amount since they are not hurt.

    First off, some information on the nutritional value of wheat, barley, olive oil, and grape juice or wine (if grape juice is made into an alcoholic beverage the sugar is what is converted into alcohol). Serving size is 100 grams; all measurements are in grams except calories. Different web sites have slightly different values but they are all very close.

    Nutritional value of wheat

    Calories 340
    Fat 2.5
    Protein 13.2
    Carbohydrate 72
    Sugar .4


    Nutritional value of barley

    Calories 354
    Fat 2.3
    Protein 12.48
    Carbohydrate 73.4
    Sugar .82

    Nutritional value of olive oil

    Calories 881.5
    Fat 103.7
    Protein 0
    Carbohydrate 0
    Sugar 0

    Nutritional value of grape juice

    Calories 60
    Fat .13
    Protein .37
    Carbohydrate 14.77
    Sugar 14.2


    Amount of nutrients needed per day for the average active adult male, amounts are less for women and children

    Calories 2700 (this can be easily obtained from olive oil, no wheat or barley needed)
    Fat 88 (this can be easily obtained from olive oil, no wheat or barley needed)
    Protein 63 (would require 4.7 gallons of grape juice, so a person would need some amount of wheat or barley to reach 63 grams)
    Carbohydrate 410 (would require less than 1 gallon of grape juice, an average person can drink 1 gallon per day so wouldn’t necessarily need wheat or barley to reach required amount of carbohydrates)
    Sugar 37.5 (this is easily obtained from grape juice, no wheat or barley needed)

    I Googled “which is more nutritious wheat or barley” and looked at foodstruct.com. This site had a very good break down of wheat vs barely. Based on 300 grams of product, vitamins and minerals are scored on how much the food fulfils a person’s daily need.

    In vitamins Barley=27 Wheat=25.
    In minerals Barley=52 Wheat=67.
    In protein Barley=75% Wheat=82%.
    In carbohydrates Barley=73% Wheat=71%.
    In fat Barley=11% Wheat=11%.

    According to many commentaries a measure of barley or wheat is about 1 quart or 907.2 grams (1 ounce = 28.35 grams). To be conservative let’s just call it 900 grams. If 1 measure is enough to feed 1 person for 1 day, then 900 grams of barley or wheat would give a little over the amount of calories needed, also an excess amount of minerals, protein, and carbohydrates, but not enough vitamins, fat, or sugar.

    My first observation is that barley and wheat are so close to being equal nutritionally that if there was a famine and a person could purchase 3 times as much barley as they could wheat, most everyone would be purchasing barley. I am not sure why some commentaries state that barley is so much less nutritious than wheat, it’s just not true.

    Second, all of the 5 basic nutritional needs can be easily obtained from grape juice and olive oil with the exception of protein (it would be physically impossible for most people to drink nearly 5 gallons of grape juice or wine per day due to the rate at which the kidneys can process).

    If, as many commentaries suggest, a penny was a day’s wages for a laborer then a laborer could purchase 2700 grams of barley per day. That’s enough protein for 5.35 days if barley was the only source of protein. If a person would drink 1 gallon of grape juice per day, they would get about 13 grams of protein. That leaves 50 grams of protein a day needed from barley; which comes out to 400 grams of barley per day. That means that a day’s wages could buy enough barley to supply 6.75 days’ worth of protein. If instead of grape juice it was alcoholic wine, a person could let the alcohol along with some of the water evaporate away so they wouldn’t become alcoholics or have to consume as much sugar or liquid. If the grape juice or wine was reduced due to evaporation it’s easy to come up with 1 days’ work supplying the 3 measures of barley needed per person for 1 week.

    If a laborer had a family of 5 people, including himself, and he was the only provider then he would perhaps have to work 4 days (women and children require less food) just for the barley to feed his family. This wouldn’t include the cost of the oil and wine. If he worked 6 days a week then they would probably be just barely getting enough food, depending on the cost of oil and wine. If however the wife or children were able to glean fields, make bread to sell, or some other economic activity (Aquila and Priscilla were both tent makers Acts 18:2-3 and Lydia was a seller of purple Acts 16:14) then they could very well be able to survive in the first century. From ancientcoinsforeducation.org it’s estimated that about 50% of income was spent on food in ancient Rome, the time when Revelation was written.

    The penny being a day’s wages is often referenced using Matthew 20:1-16 which is the parable of the laborers in the vineyard. The problem with some commentaries is that they assume everyone’s wage is a penny. It certainly was true in the parable that all who worked in the vineyard received a penny; but during the first century there were carpenters, scribes, physicians, and many more professions. It’s still the same today; someone who picks fruit is considered a laborer and makes some of the lowest wages.

    Conclusion; in order to have the third seal represent famine a person has to ignore the actual nutritional value of wheat, barley, oil, and wine or ignore the amounts of nutrients needed for a person to live.
     
  8. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Hello Jamdoc

    Now if I am understanding correctly you are not pre trib you are pre wrath.

    Ok but what you say later does not add up. Please allow me to show you.

    Well first I need to make sure I am understanding you correctly.

    Is This part of the Great Tribulation

    [1] Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,[2] but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.[3] And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." [4]These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth. [5] And if any one would harm them, fire pours out from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed.[6] They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. [7] And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them,

    I am assuming that you consider this as part of the Great Tribulation because you said this

    Which I assume you also consider to be this time

    And You Believe the AC/Beast declares himself God. which is the desolation.

    Am I understanding you correctly?
     
  9. AdB

    AdB Heb 11:1

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    But what then do you think the 3rd seal does represent?
     
  10. AdB

    AdB Heb 11:1

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    Please have a look at the pdf I shared, I came to the notion that the 2nd 3,5 years start with the Great Tribulation, then after an unspecified duration the rapture will happen and the remaining duration of the 2nd 3,5 years are the time when God will pour out His wrath...

    I understood Jamdoc to have the same understanding
     
  11. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Hi AdB



    I will look at it for sure. Please allow me time to do so. Many in here read one sentence or paragraph of a persons post get riled up and reply. I try very hard to avoid this. I like to take the time to read everything that is said and really try and grasp what a person believes and why. This takes time and when you are posting in many threads at the same time it takes a lot of time, I will read it and get back to you.
     
  12. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    One thing I notice, is that you go along with the "7 church ages" theory, I disagree with that, now, the letters were to 7 actual churches in the 1st century, but which churches were chosen were those with problems similar to what the church will be experiencing during the last days.

    Note He threatens Thyatira with the Great Tribulation, that only happens once in human history, and it wasn't first century or any other time during history.
    It does however, make sense if these are end time instructions.

    The two witnesses I find is a reference to Zechariah 4, where the symbol of the 2 olive trees is given, and explained

    So 2 individual prophets are part of the 2 witnesses, and they are the ones who stood next to the Lord of the whole earth, and we already know from Malachi 4:5 that one is Elijah explicitly but the identity of the other I believe is confirmed at the Mount of Transfiguration

    Matthew 17
    Moses and Elijah stood by the Lord of the whole earth.

    But also in Revelation 11 aside from the 2 Olive Trees.. are 2 candlesticks.
    In another thread on the 2 witnesses, one of the guys who's staff here pointed out that candlesticks represents Churches back in Revelation 1.

    So Moses, Elijah, and we believe the Church but specifically those who represent the Church of Smyrna, and the Church of Philadelphia, the 2 churches that Jesus had nothing against and only encouraged.

    The only other difference is I interpret chapters 12-20 to be mostly a recap, new details but same events.
    The first harvest in Revelation 14 is not put through the wrath of God, it's done by Jesus, to me it's a picture of the Rapture. Your interpretation kind of veers into pretribulationist theory of "tribulation saints" where it's only new converts that experience beheadings.
    I place all that pre sixth seal but you do have a point where the Angel does promise that all those that die in Christ from that point will be blessed. So there can be new converts after the rapture, something I thought was mostly unlikely because of the language given that people don't repent during the wrath of God.
     
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  13. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    It represents economic collapse more than famine. Famine results from economic collapse but primarily it's hyperinflation. The oil and wine more or less represent the wealthy/elite.

    Think Great Reset.
    That's your 3rd seal I believe.
     
  14. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    Chapters and verses weren't in the original book.
    so I see the 2 witnesses part to be parenthetical, I don't believe that the 2 witnesses will only start after the 6th trumpet.
    Considering they're raptured, I think they're killed before the 6th seal.
    That's something I'm less docgmatic about, their placement in time is more mysterious than most the rest of the book. Because the 6th trumpet lasting 3.5 years? Doesn't work very well.
     
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  15. grafted branch

    grafted branch Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If the wheat, barley, oil, and wine are not meant in any literal sense then they have to make sense spiritually.

    Wheat would represent believers, and oil represents the Holy Spirit. I would say the wine represents the scriptures being fulfilled; so when the wine of the wrath of God is poured out it’s the fulfilment of his wrath. Likewise when Jesus turns the water into wine I think it represents Jesus having the ability to fulfill the law. With barley it’s difficult to say with certainty but I use Numbers 5:15 to come to the idea that it represents sin that is remembered.

    Numbers 5:15 concerning a jealous husband, it states “then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance”. ​

    So I interpret the third seal as man being weighed in the balance and must pay for his sins or as in the case of believers, be given as a gift the cost of his sins.

    I think the third seal has to do with the time when Jesus prays in Luke 22:42 Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. Jesus paid the price and became sin for us. We also know that after he was baptized the Spirit of God descended upon him. When Jesus cried out my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me; the Holy Spirit is no longer with him at that time. The Holy Spirit is not hurt or wounded with Jesus for our transgressions. The cup or price that must be paid for the wheat is asked to be removed in Luke 22:42. The answer or Gods will would be that he must die alone, without the Holy Spirt (oil not being hurt) and what was written in the scriptures must be fulfilled (wine not being hurt).
     
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  16. AdB

    AdB Heb 11:1

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    You bring an interesting point! Thinking about it, maybe the letters have a dual fulfilment. Once as letters to the actual churches and once as you say to address the different states the different denominations will be at during the great tribulation... Possibly it is also to paint out the phases the church in general would go through but I actually haven't (yet) put that to some good analysis...

    Rev 14:1-5 indeed talks about the saint in Heaven after the rapture.
    Rev 14:6 starts with "Then I saw" so this happens after the rapture. The message of the first angel sounds to me as an encouragment, not a judgement as the next two. Rev 11:13 indicates that people are doing exactly according the first message, fear God, give Him glory and worship Him. Also Rev 20:4 talks about believers, to me it seems these are converts after the rapture.

    Regarding the two witnesses, the imagery of olive branches and lamp standards are used in many ways, but the general concept always seem to be "witness of God". Considering the two witnesses as actual people makes it rather difficult to fit it in the whole narrative... Considering them as a metaphore makes much more sense, the reason why it is 2 of them might be like "jews and gentiles" like some have suggested, or some other devide...
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2021
  17. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    I don't see the 144,000 as the gentile church.
    They are not from the tribes of Israel, that's replacement theology.

    the 144,000 may be those Jews who repent and call on Jesus when they see Him in the sky.

    Remember the Parable of the laborers

    Matthew 20
    These 144,000 are called the first fruits.
    Revelation 14
     
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  18. AdB

    AdB Heb 11:1

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    Correct, either (parallel to Rev 7 and Rev 19) the 144000 represent a specific elect of actual jewish decendants, or a specific elect with some kind of relation to the jewish tribes, or they are a numeric metaphore to the "great multitude"... As of now I'm still undecided
     
  19. Jamdoc

    Jamdoc Watching and Praying Always

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    I think Revelation 7 gives enough distinction, that the first 144000 are converts from the Tribes of Israel, and the great multitude that is after is from every tribe, tongue and nation.
    They aren't the same group.
     
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  20. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Hi Adb

    Ok so I have read it. I see a few things right off that do not add up to me. The explanation of how the last Trumpet in Cor is not the seventh Trumpet in RV makes no sense at all. There is no scripture to backs this assumption up only the teachings of men who wish to say that The Great Tribulation does not include the trumpets. Because we do not suffer the wrath of God.

    I have one Question Did the Hebrews have to be whisked away to be safe from God's wrath on Egypt when the plagues fell. Of Course not they were ......wait for it....................because it is sooooo GREAT..............They were protected from the Plagues by the Blood of the Lamb...Hey .wow ..isn't that coool :) Jesus died at 3Pm on the day of Passover....he literally is the Sacrificial Lamb.

    The second thing is this. In the paper the Beast from the pit is running around on Earth Before the Pit is opened at the fifth Trumpet. Sorry but that is impossible.
     
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