Olivet Discourse & Rev 6

[Spiritual Jew]

And why would the world be saying peace and saying? See, that's the problem. There's potential for war breaking out at any place in the world. And let us not forget the muslim factor.

With the destruction of Gog/Magog, that will essentially be the end of Islam. And Russia will be pruned back by the loss of so much of its military.

You don't seem to understand human behavior. We have had two world wars in the not too distant past along with many other major wars since then and, yet, many people today still say "peace and safety" as if those things won't ever happen again or as if nothing like that could ever happen to them. That's how many people are. They ignore the past and ignore the warning signs. You know that's true.

 

[Jamdoc]

No, I'm not. Just because I interpret some things figuratively that you intepret literally does not mean I'm just brushing those things off. That's nonsense. I'm interpreting them differently than you. You're just handwaving away the evidence I'm giving to back up my reasoning for interpreting those things figuratively. Are you afraid of what you might discover if you actually thought about what I'm saying?

What you're saying isn't in agreement with what the bible says, and requires private interpretation and allegorizing the entire book in question.

 

[Douggg]

You don't seem to understand human behavior. We have had two world wars in the not too distant past along with many other major wars since then and, yet, many people today still say "peace and safety" as if those things won't ever happen again or as if nothing like that could ever happen to them. That's how many people are. They ignore the past and ignore the warning signs. You know that's true.

I don't think the disposition of the world is currently one of saying peace and safety. Taliban in Afghanistan for example.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Jamdoc

I don't see the 144,000 as the gentile church.
They are not from the tribes of Israel, that's replacement theology.

the 144,000 may be those Jews who repent and call on Jesus when they see Him in the sky.

I am sorry but this is just lacking logic on so many levels.

1. They are not all from the House of Judah only three tribes are. Judah, Levi, Benjamin
2. They did not return Scripture says this even Josephus says they never returned.
3. Scripture says they would be as many as grains of sand so billions.
4. We know the lost tribes settled all across Europe from the steps of Russia to the coast of Ireland from the north of Sweden to Greece so ya billions.
5. Even if they were all from the house of Judah you are aware more people who are from the house of Judah have become Christian then there are Jews in Israel.
6. Even if we assume they are modern practicing Jews there are more Jews outside of modern Israel then there are in Israel In fact there are just as many Jews in North America then in Israel.
7. Finally no where does it says they have to be living in Modern Israel.

My point is this fixation Dispensationalists have on the 144,000 having to be from modern Israel is just so crazy and makes literally no sense what so ever.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi AdB

Then who are the people in the Great Multitude in Rev 7:9-17 and where are they and at what time?

So that is not a short answer. Ok short answer lol the 144,000 are the first sealed in the latter rain. They go out two by two to preach and witness they are on earth from the first trumpet to the fifth trumpet. The great multitude are those who are converted. At the Fifth Trumpet the Beast rises from the Pit and kills the 144,000 and starts the persecution of the Great Tribulation.

Well that is the very short version

Edit: Technically you are correct that God could indeed keep us save from His Wrath even while not taking us up into Heaven. But that would be nothing short of a miraculeus mind blowing experience! Can you imaging these multitudes of people from all around the globe somehow staying completely untouched while the world is being obliterated?
I don't think this concept is described anywhere in scripture, and I actually don't understand why you think the above described situation is believed, but not God taking His own right into Heaven where He is?

Yes it will make those that suffer hate those that are passed over. It will be easy for the followers of the Beast to kill the passed over. Just like the 144,000 are hated by everyone (because they control the plagues) and they celebrate when the Beast kills them.

 

[Jamdoc]

Hi Jamdoc



I am sorry but this is just lacking logic on so many levels.

1. They are not all from the House of Judah only three tribes are. Judah, Levi, Benjamin
2. They did not return Scripture says this even Josephus says they never returned.
3. Scripture says they would be as many as grains of sand so billions.
4. We know the lost tribes settled all across Europe from the steps of Russia to the coast of Ireland from the north of Sweden to Greece so ya billions.
5. Even if they were all from the house of Judah you are aware more people who are from the house of Judah have become Christian then there are Jews in Israel.
6. Even if we assume they are modern practicing Jews there are more Jews outside of modern Israel then there are in Israel In fact there are just as many Jews in North America then in Israel.
7. Finally no where does it says they have to be living in Modern Israel.

My point is this fixation Dispensationalists have on the 144,000 having to be from modern Israel is just so crazy and makes literally no sense what so ever.

God can preserve them, and surprise us with their revealing.
only Dan and Ephraim seem to be truly lost.

John makes a distinction between a finite number of people from specific tribes of Israel, and an uncountable multitude of gentiles.
Why conflate the 2 as being the same when John makes the distinction between them?

 

[AdB]

So, what does that tell you about the timing of the sixth seal in relation to the timing of the seventh trumpet?

That the 7 trumpets are after the 6th seal and that the 7th trumpet isn't the "last trumpet"

 

[AdB]

and with the trumpet call of God

You literaly ignore the part that comes right after what you are emphesising...
"and with the trumpet call of God"

 

[AdB]

It's all the same thing. By God's command, the archangel's voice announces the return of Christ. It's never talking about literal trumpets. Do you think the seals and bowls are literal, too? If so, how can plagues literally pour out of literal bowls? Come on.

Anyway, the trumpet sounds have to do with shouts or calls coming from angels which are figuratively described as trumpets because of how they are announcing something important that is about to happen.

Aren't all the trumpets God's trumpets regardless of who is blowing them? You're really reaching here.

Then why the scriptual distinction?

 

[AdB]

In 2Thessalonians2, Paul comforts the Thessalonians that the day of Christ, which is the day of the Lord, had not begun yet. And Paul informs them when the day of the Lord begins.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Now I wonder if you deliberately left out the first verse because it ruins your narative?
2 Thes 2:1
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him"

 

[AdB]

I don't take the description of what occurs with the first 6 trumpets or bowls literally the way you do. If I did then I would acknowledge that you have a point here, but I don't.

Just take the first trumpet, for example.

Revelation 8:7 7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Why would blood literally be mingled with hail and fire? What purpose would that serve? That strongly comes across as figurative language.

Also, it says a third of trees and all green grass was burned up? Think about that. How is that even possible in a literal sense? Picture fire coming down on the earth and somehow only burning up a third of the trees but all of the green grass? Aren't more than a third of the trees on earth surrounded by green grass? That would mean in some places only the grass would be burned but not the trees whose branches are hanging over the grass. It makes no sense literally.

What would even be the point of literally burning up a third of the trees and all the green grass? It has to be figurative language there.

No premil views make any sense whether they are pretrib, prewrath or post-trib. A vast majority of premils think all end times prophecy centers around modern day Israel and Jerusalem when the reality is that end times prophecy centers entirely around Christ and His church as well as all the forces that come against Christ and His church.

The trumpets and bowls being literal or metaphorical, it is clear that this will definitely not be a time of peace and safety...

 

[Douggg]

Now I wonder if you deliberately left out the first verse because it ruins your narative?
2 Thes 2:1
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him"

No, it does not run counter to my narrative. It is part of it. The rapture/resurrection event is Jesus coming to resurrect the dead in Christ and translate the living to gather all Christians up to that point in time unto Himself and take them to heaven before the Day of the Lord begins.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What you're saying isn't in agreement with what the bible says, and requires private interpretation and allegorizing the entire book in question.

You like to exaggerate a lot. I do not allegorize the entire book of Revelation. But, it is undeniably a highly symbolic book, so it's foolish to assume that any given passage is literal unless it smacks you upside the head and says otherwise.

Who is the one interpreting Revelation 19:11-21 to be talking about Jesus killing literally "all people, free and slave, great and small" (Rev 19:18) on the earth when He returns? That would be me.

What I'm saying isn't in disagreement with the Bible and the book of Revelation, it's in disagreement with your interpretations of the book in question. You interpret the book in isolation from other scripture and your interpretations contradict other scripture. But, you don't care about that.

You have Paul and Peter warning their readers about being ready for the coming of the day of the Lord because of the destruction it will bring even though you don't believe that the destruction occurs until 1000+ years after Christ's return. That makes no sense whatsoever, but you don't care about that because that doesn't line up with your interpretation of the book of Revelation which trumps all other scripture in your mind.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The trumpets and bowls being literal or metaphorical, it is clear that this will definitely not be a time of peace and safety...

It isn't about it literally being a time of peace and safety, it's about people falsely thinking they are at peace and are safe. There's a lot of people who think that way today despite all the chaos going on in the world with the pandemic, wars, natural disasters and such.

I think it has to do with people thinking they are safe in a spiritual sense as well without realizing that God is angry with them. They don't think they are in danger of facing God's wrath despite their wicked behavior. So, the destruction that will come upon Christ's return will catch them completely off guard like a thief in the night.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I don't think the disposition of the world is currently one of saying peace and safety. Taliban in Afghanistan for example.

Like I said, you don't seem to understand human behavior. For one thing, many people ignore what's going on in the world and don't believe those things affect them.

But, more importantly, the context of 1 Thess 5:2-3 is regarding how unbelievers think about their status with God. They have no concerns about God's wrath coming down upon them. So, they say "peace and safety" in the sense that they don't think they are in trouble with God. So, when the destruction that Paul said will come upon the arrival of the day of the Lord occurs, it will catch them off guard "like a thief in the night". There doesn't have to be total peace and safety in the world in order for this to be the case for unbelievers. It has to do with them not expecting God's wrath to come upon them.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That the 7 trumpets are after the 6th seal and that the 7th trumpet isn't the "last trumpet"

Let's look at what it says in the description of the 6th seal.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

For one thing, you should know that this is all figurative language because if stars literally fell to the earth it would completely annihilate the earth and none of us believe that is what will happen at the sixth seal. But, what this passage does indicate is that the day of the "wrath of the Lamb" is at hand at this point. It's just about to come down. With that in mind, how could there even be time for all the trumpets and bowls to still occur after this?

You're not recognizing that there are several parallel sections in the book of Revelation. It's not all chronological as you believe. Interpreting it all chronologically leads to nonsense such as you thinking that the day of His wrath has arrived as of the opening of the sixth seal and somehow concluding that all of the trumpets and bowls will still follow that.

 

[AdB]

It isn't about it literally being a time of peace and safety, it's about people falsely thinking they are at peace and are safe. There's a lot of people who think that way today despite all the chaos going on in the world with the pandemic, wars, natural disasters and such.

I think you have a wrong concept of how people are experiencing today's state of the world, most people are anxious and worried, although most of those simply try to make best of it and live their lives

 

[AdB]

For one thing, you should know that this is all figurative language because if stars literally fell to the earth it would completely annihilate the earth and none of us believe that is what will happen at the sixth seal.

ever heard of meteor showers? That would be equal to "the stars falling"

But, what this passage does indicate is that the day of the "wrath of the Lamb" is at hand at this point. It's just about to come down. With that in mind, how could there even be time for all the trumpets and bowls to still occur after this?

It means that the events of the trumpets and bowls are to commence, these events are the pouring out of God's Wrath...

You're not recognizing that there are several parallel sections in the book of Revelation. It's not all chronological as you believe.

You clearly haven't read my paper, I definitely do not read all of Revelation as one chronological story...

 

[AdB]

No, it does not run counter to my narrative. It is part of it. The rapture/resurrection event is Jesus coming to resurrect the dead in Christ and translate the living to gather all Christians up to that point in time unto Himself and take them to heaven before the Day of the Lord begins.

Ok, so Paul starts this chapter with "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him" and then further on says "For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

To me it seems that he says that the man of lawlessness will first be revealed by seating himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. And that the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him" will not happen before that...
You may want to counter that "that day" is about "the day of the Lord" and that this is not the same as the moment of "our being gathered together to him". But Paul is clearly instructing his fellow Christians to not be "shaken in mind or alarmed" BECAUSE they've not yet witnessed the "man of lawlessness being revealed".

So this leads me (contrarily to what I initially thought) that the rapture will be after the revelation of the antichrist, we will have to endure a nasty period which is called the great tribulation in which we will be tested. But before God will proceed to pour out His Wrath upon this world we will be taken away in the rapture.

 

[AdB]

God can preserve them, and surprise us with their revealing.
only Dan and Ephraim seem to be truly lost.

John makes a distinction between a finite number of people from specific tribes of Israel, and an uncountable multitude of gentiles.
Why conflate the 2 as being the same when John makes the distinction between them?

Though I do not object to your position I do think that the 144000 could be metaphorical to indicate that the people that will be raptured are the "full number", no one is left behind, the timing is the moment where the elect number of people is reached. The meaning of the number 12 throughout the Bible is "completeness", duplicating a statement (or in this case the number 12) is to emphasize or confirm as absolute. The meaning of the number 1000 can be taken as "large number", so 144000 can be read as "Absolutely and definitely the complete number of a very large multitude of people". So this way the narrative of the 144000 might be to confirm that God has raptured the exact correct (complete) number of people.
Then the description of the Great Multitude tells us what this multitude is actually comprised of "a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue".