Are you a Jew under the law or a gentile ?

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Obedience to the commandments of Jesus that is.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

Unless of course, you believe that not coveting that oxen will save you from damnation?

Where does the foremost precept fit in; or did John override that in your opinion?

(CLV) MarK 12: 28-34
28 And, approaching, one of the scribes, hearing them discussing, having perceived that He answered them ideally, inquires of Him, "What is the foremost precept of all? 29 Jesus answered him that "The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord." 30 And, You shall be loving the Lord God out of your whole heart, and out of your whole soul, and out of your whole comprehension, and out of your whole strength. This is the foremost precept." 31 And the second is like it: 'You shall be loving your associate as yourself.' Now greater than these is no other precept." 32 And the scribe said to Him, "In truth, Teacher, Thou sayest ideally that He is One, and there is no other more than He." 33 And to be loving Him out of your whole heart, and out of the whole understanding, and out of the whole soul, and out of the whole strength, and to be loving the associate as yourself, is excessively more than all the ascent approaches and the sacrifices." 34 And Jesus, perceiving him, that he answered apprehendingly, said to him, "Not far are you from the kingdom of God.And no one dared to inquire of Him any longer."

Yahshua was quoting the Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

(CLV) DT 6:4
4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One. 5 So you will love Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your intensity. 6 These words which I am instructing you today will come to be in your heart.

(CLV) LV 19:18
18 You shall not avenge nor shall you be resentful against the sons of your people. You will love your associate as yourself:I am Yahweh.
 
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Are you a Jew under the law or a gentile ?

I hope all disciples of Jesus (“Christians) are also Jews, because it is said:

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree; don't boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in." True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don't be conceited, but fear; for if God didn't spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Romans 11:17-21
 
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RCrihfield

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You sure your Bible isn`t shaped like a club? I`m just looking for someone who can explain why Romans 3:31 is there. If you can`t do it then its ok, I`m not mad at you.
Noone has ever been justified by any law. Paul is telling us that it is by faith and (vs 31) that faith demands that we obey God. Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works.

Your premise seems to ask, "do we still keep the 'law of Moses'?" No we do not and anyone who still follows Moses is not following Christ.

Jesus said, "not one jot or tittle will pass from the law or prophets until all has been fulfilled". Heb 8:13 (supported by the rest of the letter) says that it (the law and prophets) is ready (near time) to pass away.

This has profound ramifications. If you say the prophets have not been fulfilled then you better keep the sacrificial law of Moses. You need to keep the passover and all sabbaths. You must practice circumcision. It is still in effect.

But, if all has been fulfilled then you are free to show your faith by Christ's law. Grace, mercy, love and fidelity.

I choose the latter.
 
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Soyeong

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Noone has ever been justified by any law. Paul is telling us that it is by faith and (vs 31) that faith demands that we obey God. Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works.

Your premise seems to ask, "do we still keep the 'law of Moses'?" No we do not and anyone who still follows Moses is not following Christ.

Jesus said, "not one jot or tittle will pass from the law or prophets until all has been fulfilled". Heb 8:13 (supported by the rest of the letter) says that it (the law and prophets) is ready (near time) to pass away.

This has profound ramifications. If you say the prophets have not been fulfilled then you better keep the sacrificial law of Moses. You need to keep the passover and all sabbaths. You must practice circumcision. It is still in effect.

But, if all has been fulfilled then you are free to show your faith by Christ's law. Grace, mercy, love and fidelity.

I choose the latter.

While we are under the New Covenant and not under the Mosaic Covenant, we are still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same instructions for how to express His nature. For example the way to express God's righteousness is straightforwardly based on God's righteousness, not on a particular covenant, and God's righteousness is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to express His righteousness are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under. Likewise, sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), so there were no actions that became sinful when the law was given, but rather the law revealed what has always been and will always be sin. For example, it was sinful to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9, long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, so there is nothing about any number of God's covenants being made or becoming obsolete that changes which actions are righteous or sinful. In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following God's law, so the fact that the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete does not mean that any of God's laws became obsolete along with it. Rather, the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as obedience to God's law, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, but did not say that we earn our justification by obeying the law.

Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22). Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel, which Jesus prophesied would be proclaimed to the nations (Matthew 24:12-14). So it doesn't make any sense to think that someone who is still following the Mosaic Law that Christ taught by word and by example is not following Christ.

"To fulfill the Mosaic Law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the Mosaic Law in Matthew 5, he proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it or by completing our understanding of it. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret that in the same way as you interpret fulfilling the Law of Moses.
 
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Soyeong

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Your profile says you are Messianic but you sound like a Gentile to me. The OP should have created a third choice :preach:

I am Messianic. Why do you think that I sound like a Gentile?

In the passage below Paul talks about the Law as a document that remains in force and he plainly states who the Law has power over.

"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine"

Here is a link to some scholar resource. My assertion about the meaning of the word "law" wouldn`t normally be disputed.

Romans 3:31 Commentaries: Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Do you believe that the law is only for murderers, so once someone receives Christ, then the law is no longer in force for them, and they are now free to go back to committing murder?
 
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Soyeong

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Yes, Adam disobeyed God's command and ate the fruit that he was forbidden to eat.

No, we sin when we disobey God, put ourselves first, don't accept Jesus as our Saviour but try to be good enough to please him/get a place in heaven.

Someone who has never heard of the OT law nor read the Bible still sins against God.

God's nature is the mark and sin is anything that misses that mark, and God's nature is eternal, so the actions that have been revealed to be sinful have always been and will always be sinful regardless of whom those instructions were given to. Sin is the transgression of God's law because God's law instructs us how to express God's nature. Sin was in the world before the law was given (Romans 5:13), so people could still sin by acting against God's nature in violation of God's law before it was given to them.

If you're talking about the Jewish food and hygiene laws, he didn't give them to me; I'm not a Jew.

In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which includes refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45), so following those instructions is testifying about God's holiness. If it your goal to live in a way that expresses God's nature and that testifies about who He is instead of bearing false witness against Him, then you will seek by faith to follow the instructions that God has given for how to do that regardless of whether you are a Jew or a Gentile. In 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included as part of God's chosen people, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, and a treasure of God's own possession, which are terms used to describe Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6), so Gentiles also have the delight of getting to follow the instructions that God gave for how to fulfill those roles. There is no point in a Gentile wanting to become part of a holy nation while wanting nothing to do with following God's instructions for how to live as part of a holy nation.

That doesn't mean going backwards - accepting Christ who fulfilled the law for the Jews and then acting like a Jew and doing our best to keep that law.

Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law by setting an example of how to walk in obedience to it, he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, and it doesn't make sense to think that the way to receive Jesus is by refusing to receive what he taught by word and by example. "To fulfill the Mosaic Law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the Mosaic Law in Matthew 5, he proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it or by completing our understanding of it. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret that in the same way as you interpret fulfilling the Law of Moses.

Saul of Tarsus was once a devout Pharisee. After he met Christ he taught that circumcision was nothing, that food does not bring anyone closer to God and that as an idol means nothing, it doesn't matter if you eat meat that has been sacrificed to it - unless it causes someone else to sin.

Paul still identified as a Pharisee in Acts 23:6, so he never ceased to be a devout Pharisee. While Paul said circumcision has no value, that what matters is obeying the commandments of God (1 Corinthians 7:19), he also said that circumcision has much value in every way (Romans 3:1-2), so the issue is that circumcision has no inherent value and that its value is entirely derived from whether we obey God's law (Romans 2:25). He certainly was not saying that obedience to the commandments of God no longer matters. In Romans 2:26, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:12-16, 30:6). In Jeremiah 9:13 and 9:26, it is those with uncircumcised hearts that have forsaken God's law. Paul did not have the authority to countermand God's law, so he should not be interpreted as trying to do that.

God's law is to love him with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, love your neighbour as yourself and to act justly, love mercy and walk humbly before God, Micah 6:8. Jesus gave us a new commandment, to love as he loves.
Jesus loves us perfectly - no one can love perfectly without God; therefore, we all sin.

What Jesus was telling people to do when he quoted the greatest two commandments should not mean someone different than what God was telling the Israelites to do when He gave those commandments. All the commandments that God has given are examples of what it looks like to love God with all of heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves, which is why Jesus said that those were the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so they are all connected. For example, obedience to the command to help the poor looks like obedience to the command to love our neighbor, so the command to love does not replace the other commandments, but rather it is the essence of them. Jesus expressed His love for the Father and his neighbor through his actions and what that looked like was obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is also what it looks like to love as he loves. It is contradictory for someone to want to act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly before God instead of following God's instructions for how to do that found in His law.
 
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Soyeong

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I hope all disciples of Jesus (“Christians) are also Jews, because it is said:

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them, and became partaker with them of the root and of the richness of the olive tree; don't boast over the branches. But if you boast, it is not you who support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in." True; by their unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by your faith. Don't be conceited, but fear; for if God didn't spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Romans 11:17-21

In Jeremiah 9:1-26, Deuteronomy 6:4-7, Deuteronomy 10:12-22, Deuteronomy 30:1-16, Acts 7:51-53, and Romans 2:26-29, having a circumcised heart is associated with knowing God, following the Mosaic Law, and loving God with all of our heart and soul, while having an uncircumcised heart is associated with refusing to know God and forsaking His law. Jews need to be both physically and spiritually circumcised, but that does mean that Gentiles Christian who obey Mosaic Law becoming Jews. In Exodus 12:38, there was a mixed multitude who came up out of Egypt with the Jews, so there weer Gentiles at the foot of Sinai and there have always been Gentiles who have become grafted into Israel through faith in Christ, and while that makes them part of Israel, it does not mean that they are also becoming Jews.
 
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RickReads

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Noone has ever been justified by any law. Paul is telling us that it is by faith and (vs 31) that faith demands that we obey God. Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works.

Your premise seems to ask, "do we still keep the 'law of Moses'?" No we do not and anyone who still follows Moses is not following Christ.

Jesus said, "not one jot or tittle will pass from the law or prophets until all has been fulfilled". Heb 8:13 (supported by the rest of the letter) says that it (the law and prophets) is ready (near time) to pass away.

This has profound ramifications. If you say the prophets have not been fulfilled then you better keep the sacrificial law of Moses. You need to keep the passover and all sabbaths. You must practice circumcision. It is still in effect.

But, if all has been fulfilled then you are free to show your faith by Christ's law. Grace, mercy, love and fidelity.

I choose the latter.

There is no premise. I was just curious to see who could explain what the verse means. I`m pretty sure I directed the "why is it there" question at someone who wouldn`t accept the standard meaning of the word "law" in the verse.

The Law requirement was fulfilled by Jesus but about 20% of the old testament prophecies have not been. The book of Hebrews does not say anything about the prophets passing away.
 
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RickReads

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I am Messianic. Why do you think that I sound like a Gentile?



Do you believe that the law is only for murderers, so once someone receives Christ, then the law is no longer in force for them, and they are now free to commit murder?

I think you were born a Gentile because Messianics who really are Jewish rarely believe in trying to proselytize Gentiles.

On your other question, I believe what Paul says about the law. In fact, you ask the perfect question. Romans 3:31 is Paul`s answer to your question about murder.
 
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RickReads

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The law grants the knowledge of sin and that's why we establish the law. All are not good and cannot measure up to the law. The law does not promise salvation or even righteousness.

The law tells you that you have a serious problem and to wait for someone who can can fulfill it. Wait for someone who can obey it. Wait for someone who is good not a bad person.

The law tells you in no uncertain terms that you are lost, sinful, and completely selfish.

Salvation is a gift and available apart from the law, because the law does not regenerate or reconcile. Righteous is a gift and apart from the law and the law cannot make you righteous.

Perfection is required by God, absolute perfection and the law does not even come close to that impossible mark. Only the free gift of Christ's righteousness, perfect righteousness, is given freely to those that believe.

The law against coveting your neighbors oxen is not even in the ballpark, when it comes to a righteousness. That is holy, holy, holy.

I think I can agree with all that but you didn`t explain the meaning of the verse to me. Hence the F grade :doh:
 
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Soyeong

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I think you were born a Gentile because Messianics who really are Jewish rarely believe in trying to proselytize Gentiles.

My mom is Jewish, which makes me Jewish, but I grew up as a Baptist. In any case Jews were were given the role of being a light and a blessing to the nations, so refraining from proselytizing Gentiles undermines why God picked Jews as His chosen people (Isaiah 2:2-3, 49:6). In Deuteronomy 4:5-8, the intended reaction of the nations seeing Israel's obedience to the Mosaic Law was to marvel at how great and wise God is, so their obedience was testifying about who God is. In other words, the Mosaic Law was given as a tool to proselytize Gentiles by teaching them about how to have a relationship with the God of Israel, which makes it absurd when Gentiles want to have a relationship with the God of Israel, but don't want to obey His instructions for how to do that because they were given to Jews to teach to Gentiles instead of being directly given to Gentiles. The reason why the Gospel went out to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles was so that Jews could play the role of being a light and a blessing to the nations.

Matthew 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

Some of the Pharisees had a problem with hypocrisy that they needed to address, but I don't think that they can be faulted for a lack of effort in making proselytes.

On your other question, I believe what Paul says about the law. In fact, you ask the perfect question. Romans 3:31 is Paul`s answer to your question about murder.

When we have a character trait, then we will express it though our actions, so to say that someone is courageous is to say that they take actions that express courage and to say that someone is righteous is to say that they take actions that express righteousness. So it would be absurd for someone to interpret 1 Timothy 1:9-11 as saying that doing what is righteous is only for the unrighteous and not for the righteous. Instructions for how to do what is righteous are not needed by those who are already acting in accordance with those instructions, but rather it is the unrighteous who are in need of those instructions. Obedience to any set of instructions is about putting our faith in the one who gave them to rightly guide us, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law and in Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, so the way to live by faith is by obeying God's law, and in this way our faith upholds God's law (Roman 3:31).
 
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RCrihfield

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so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel, which Jesus prophesied would be proclaimed to the nations (Matthew 24:12-14). So it doesn't make any sense to think that someone who is still following the Mosaic Law that Christ taught by word and by example is not following Christ.

Your response was well thought out. You see what Paul was saying about sin being in the world before the law (of Moses) was given. What does Paul say about those who were not privy to Moses' law. Were they not a law unto themselves? Even going so far as to say those who knew nothing of God were without excuse because they could see God in the creation and knew He Is.

The quote above though kind of threw me. Are you saying that since Jesus lived and taught under the old law that we must now obey its articles as well? That goes directly against Paul's argument about the Gentiles. No to circumcision. No to feasts and holy days.

Acts 15
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.


19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

The "Jerusalem council" thought these things from the old law were sufficient. Would anyone say that these four "commandments" are the entire law of Christ? No, certainly not. We do not commit adultery or kill or steal or bear false witness not because Moses taught us but because (as you said) God has taught that from the beginning.

We need to be clear that GOD'S law is what we follow. Not completely the same as Noah's time or Abraham's time or Moses' day or even Nebuchadnezzar's day though all have commonalities only the current agreement between us and God is valid today.

I follow Christ.
 
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RickReads

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My mom is Jewish, which makes me Jewish, but I grew up as a Baptist. In any case Jews were were given the role of being a light and a blessing to the nations, so refraining from proselytizing Gentiles undermines why God picked Jews as His chosen people (Isaiah 2:2-3, 49:6). In Deuteronomy 4:5-8, the intended reaction of the nations seeing Israel's obedience to the Mosaic Law was to marvel at how great and wise God is, so their obedience was testifying about who God is. In other words, the Mosaic Law was given as a tool to proselytize Gentiles by teaching them about how to have a relationship with the God of Israel, which makes it absurd when Gentiles want to have a relationship with the God of Israel, but don't want to obey His instructions for how to do that because they were given to Jews to teach to Gentiles instead of being directly given to Gentiles. The reason why the Gospel went out to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles was so that Jews could play the role of being a light and a blessing to the nations.

Matthew 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

Some of the Pharisees had a problem with hypocrisy that they needed to address, but I don't think that they can be faulted for a lack of effort in making proselytes.



When we have a character trait, then we will express it though our actions, so to say that someone is courageous is to say that they take actions that express courage and to say that someone is righteous is to say that they take actions that express righteousness. So it would be absurd for someone to interpret 1 Timothy 1:9-11 as saying that doing what is righteous is only for the unrighteous and not for the righteous. Instructions for how to do what is righteous are not needed by those who are already acting in accordance with those instructions, but rather it is the unrighteous who are in need of those instructions. Obedience to any set of instructions is about putting our faith in the one who gave them to rightly guide us, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law and in Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, so the way to live by faith is by obeying God's law, and in this way our faith upholds God's law (Roman 3:31).

Ok, thxs for sharing a little bit of your background. Helps me to understand you better. Do you attend a Messianic congregation?

Just as an FYI, I did read your other remarks. The problem with your logic is seen in Exodus 19,
"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

Israel was required to keep the covenant and obey His voice in order to be light to the world and bless it. Instead they persecuted the church and scattered the disciples of Jesus all over the Roman Near East.
 
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Soyeong

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Your response was well thought out. You see what Paul was saying about sin being in the world before the law (of Moses) was given. What does Paul say about those who were not privy to Moses' law. Were they not a law unto themselves? Even going so far as to say those who knew nothing of God were without excuse because they could see God in the creation and knew He Is.

In Romans 2:12, it is far better to be judged by the Mosaic Law than to perish apart from it. In Romans 2:13, only doers of the law will be justified. In Romans 2:14, Gentile believers will by nature do what the law requires.

The quote above though kind of threw me. Are you saying that since Jesus lived and taught under the old law that we must now obey its articles as well? That goes directly against Paul's argument about the Gentiles. No to circumcision. No to feasts and holy days.

Yes, Christ was born under the law (Galatians 4:4), so he was obligated to obey it, and he was sinless, so he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to it, and those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). I do not think that Jesus hypocritically preached something other than what he practiced or that he established the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching by word and by example, but rather the New Covenant still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:33). In 1 Corinthians 11:1, Paul instructed us to be imitators of him as he was of Christ, so I think Paul also taught obedience to the Mosaic Law by word and by example, and that is what we are also called to do. In Acts 21:20-24, Paul was rejoicing that there were tens of thousands of Jews coming to faith who were all zealous for the Mosaic Law and he took steps to disprove false rumors that he had been teaching against it and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Acts 23:6, Paul still identified as a Pharisee, which is a sect of Judaism that observes the Mosaic Law. In Acts 24:24, Paul worshiped the God of his fathers, believing everything laid down in the Law and the Prophets, and God's law is His instructions for how to worship Him. According to John 12:44-50, we need to listen to Christ's words, so I don't think that Paul opposed anything that Christ taught by word and by example, but if you do, then you need to choose between whether you are a follower of Christ or a follower of Paul.

In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover Lamb, however, instead of concluded that we no longer need to bother with Passover, he concluded that we should therefore continue to keep it. In Acts 16:3, Paul had Timothy circumcised. In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for why commanded circumcision, so the problem was that circumcision was being used for a man-made purpose that went above and beyond the purpose for which God commanded it. So the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against that requirement, and a ruling against something that God never commanded should not be mistaken as being a ruling against obeying what God has commanded as if he Jerusalem Council had the authority to countermand God.

Acts 15
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey, and in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, so take your pick:

1.) God was wrong in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 and the Jerusalem Council was correct in Acts 15:10-11.

2.) God was correct in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 and the Jerusalem Council was wrong in Acts 15:10-11.

3.) They are both correct, but are not both speaking about the same law.

My vote is for #3 because they were speaking about things that had been added on top of what God had commanded, as I showed with Acts 15:1. Furthermore, the Psalms contain extremely high praise for God's law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of God's law, then we will also delight in obeying it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22), which means that the belief that the Psalms are Scripture is incompatible with the belief that God's law is a heavy burden that no one can bear. For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the Law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night. We can't believe in the truth of these words while not allowing them to shape our view of God's law. The view that we have of the law matches the view that we have of the Lawgiver, which was certainly the case with David.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

The "Jerusalem council" thought these things from the old law were sufficient. Would anyone say that these four "commandments" are the entire law of Christ? No, certainly not. We do not commit adultery or kill or steal or bear false witness not because Moses taught us but because (as you said) God has taught that from the beginning.

The moment that you recognize that those four laws are not an exhaustive list of everything that would be required of mature Gentile believers is the moment that those verses can no longer be used to put any sort of limitation on which laws Gentiles should follow. To love God is to obey His commandments, so saying that there are commandments that Gentiles shouldn't follow is saying that there are areas where Gentiles shouldn't love God. As stated, these four laws were a listed intended for new believers who were coming to faith, which they excused in Acts 15:21 by saying that they would continue to learn about how to obey Moses every Sabbath in the synagogues. It's kind of like how an employer doesn't require a new employee to memorize everything that they will ever need to know about how to do their job up front, but rather in order to avoid making it too difficult for them, they start by teaching them the basics with the understanding that they will continue to learn how to do the rest on the job.

We need to be clear that GOD'S law is what we follow. Not completely the same as Noah's time or Abraham's time or Moses' day or even Nebuchadnezzar's day though all have commonalities only the current agreement between us and God is valid today.

I follow Christ.

If the Mosaic Law teaches us about who God is and if we should live in a way that testifies about who God is, then we should obey the Mosaic Law. For example, God's righteous laws teach us about His righteousness, however, they do not exhaustively describe every aspect of God's righteousness, so any two sets of instructions for how to express God's righteousness are going to contain the same types of laws, but vary only in the degree of how thoroughly they describe the aspects of God's righteousness. However, God's righteousness is eternal, so all of the aspects of His righteousness that He taught to various people are all eternally valid ways to express His righteousness. So even if Noah knew about an aspect of God's righteousness that God did not reveal to Abraham, or vice versa, then we should still act in accordance with it if it is our goal to testify about who God is.
 
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Soyeong

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Ok, thxs for sharing a little bit of your background. Helps me to understand you better. Do you attend a Messianic congregation?

Indeed, this is where I attend:

Kehilat Sar Shalom a Messianic community Congregation

Just as an FYI, I did read your other remarks. The problem with your logic is seen in Exodus 19,
"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

Israel was required to keep the covenant and obey His voice in order to be light to the world and bless it. Instead they persecuted the church and scattered the disciples of Jesus all over the Roman Near East.

In Exodus 12:38, there was a mixed multitude that went up out of Egypt with them, so there were Gentiles at the foot of Sinai. In John 8:33, Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native born, so there have always been righteous Gentiles who have affiliated themselves with the God of Israel, who have sought by faith to repent of their sins and to learn how to walk in God's ways. In Ephesians 2:19, Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens, but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God. In Romans 9:6-8, Israel is not made up of those who are descended from Israel, but of those who have faith in the promise. In Acts 15:16-17, they saw themselves as the restoration of Israel in fulfillment of prophecy, not as a brand new entity that was distinct from Israel. In 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included among God's chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, and a treasure of God's own possession, which are terms used to describe Israel (Exodus 19, Deuteronomy 7:6). However, if you want to be a stickler about what was given only to Israel, in Jeremiah 31:31, the New Covenant was only made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel, so it is only through being grafted into Israel through faith in Christ that Gentiles are able to partake of the New Covenant.

However, again I think that the issue of which covenant we are under is not as important because God's nature is eternal. If the Mosaic Law testifies about who God is and if we should live in a way that testifies about who God is, then we should still follow the Mosaic Law, even if God have never made any covenants with man.

In 1 Corinthians 10:1-13, are to learn from Israel's disobedience to God's law as an example of what we should not do. So Israel will always be a light either as an example for us to follow to the degree that they obeyed God's law or as an example for us to avoid to the degree that they disobeyed God's law.
 
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RickReads

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Indeed, this is where I attend:

Kehilat Sar Shalom a Messianic community Congregation



In Exodus 12:38, there was a mixed multitude that went up out of Egypt with them, so there were Gentiles at the foot of Sinai. In John 8:33, Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native born, so there have always been righteous Gentiles who have affiliated themselves with the God of Israel, who have sought by faith to repent of their sins and to learn how to walk in God's ways. In Ephesians 2:19, Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens, but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God. In Romans 9:6-8, Israel is not made up of those who are descended from Israel, but of those who have faith in the promise. In Acts 15:16-17, they saw themselves as the restoration of Israel in fulfillment of prophecy, not as a brand new entity that was distinct from Israel. In 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included among God's chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, and a treasure of God's own possession, which are terms used to describe Israel (Exodus 19, Deuteronomy 7:6). However, if you want to be a stickler about what was given only to Israel, in Jeremiah 31:31, the New Covenant was only made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel, so it is only through being grafted into Israel through faith in Christ that Gentiles are able to partake of the New Covenant.

However, again I think that the issue of which covenant we are under is not as important because God's nature is eternal. If the Mosaic Law testifies about who God is and if we should live in a way that testifies about who God is, then we should still follow the Mosaic Law, even if God have never made any covenants with man.

In 1 Corinthians 10:1-13, are to learn from Israel's disobedience to God's law as an example of what we should not do. So Israel will always be a light either as an example for us to follow to the degree that they obeyed God's law or as an example for us to avoid to the degree that they disobeyed God's law.

Courageus of you give me the link to your congregation. I respect that, so I will refrain from criticizing it. I might scrutinize your posts a bit though. They are more interesting to me now then they were before :smilingimp:
 
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Courageus of you give me the link to your congregation. I respect that, so I will refrain from criticizing it. I might scrutinize your posts a bit though. They are more interesting to me now then they were before :smilingimp:

If a position can't be defended, then it shouldn't continue to be held, so feel free to criticize anything that you see there. We have a number of articles there as well as studies that I'd recommend criticizing, such as on Matthew, Romans, Galatians, the Temple, the Festivals, and on Finding Messiah in the Torah.
 
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RickReads

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If a position can't be defended, then it shouldn't continue to be held, so feel free to criticize anything that you see there. We have a number of articles there as well as studies that I'd recommend criticizing, such as on Matthew, Romans, Galatians, the Temple, the Festivals, and on Finding Messiah in the Torah.

I only saw an audio option. I read commentary pretty much everyday but I don`t care for listening to it.
When I listen it`s usually music.

I`m concerned about your view on God`s grace, not concerned about somebody deciding to live God`s laws so long as the reasons for it are koser.
 
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Soyeong

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I only saw an audio option. I read commentary pretty much everyday but I don`t care for listening to it.
When I listen it`s usually music.

I`m concerned about your view on God`s grace, not concerned about somebody deciding to live God`s laws so long as the reasons for it are koser.

There are articles you can read if you'd prefer, but all of the studies are audio only.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In John 1:16-17, it says grace upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the Mosaic Law. In 2 Peter 3:17-18, growing in grace is contrasted with being taken away by the error of lawless men. In Jude 1:4, the ungodly pervert God's grace into a license for immorality. Strong's defines “grace” as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life" and when God's will is reflected in our lives, it takes the form of obedience to His law (Psalms 40:8). So grace is the power of God to overcome lawlessness in our lives and God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation.
 
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Soyeong

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Hello Rick,
1st: I'd say, the OT law had long been established. Every verse I shared (post #26) prior to 31 say's otherwise.

2nd: The book of Romans is written to NT believers, not in Israel, in Rome (Romans 1:7)

3rd: Paul argued & won at the Council at Jerusalem (Acts 15:24). That NT gentiles were never under Mosaic law (Also see & please read Eph 2:12). BTW, Peter was his biggest supporter (Acts 15:7-9 please read 7-9).

Despite the order that Paul's books/epistles were placed in our Bibles. Paul wrote Galatians 1st. The entire book is an aggressive attack against law/works for righteousness & a total rebuttal/defense of his Christ given message of by grace thru faith. And finally Rom 10:4. Best wishes, JJ

Sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so if Gentiles were never under it, then Gentiles have no need to repent from their sins, have no need of grace, have no need of Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, and have no need of the Gospel. In Acts 15:21, the expectation was that Gentiles would continue to learn about how to obey Moses every Sabbath in the synagogue, so that was not what they ruled against. In Ephesians 2:19, everything listed in Ephesians 2:12 is no longer true. Paul's problem in Galatians was not with those who were teaching Gentiles how to obey God's law as if obedience to God were somehow a negative thing, but rather his problem was with those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law that is of works with a law that is of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith. The way that our faith upholds God's law does not involve ruling against Gentiles obeying it.

In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge because they did not understand that the righteousness of God only comes through faith in Christ. So they failed to obtain righteousness because they pursued the Torah as through righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the Torah as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for Christ is the goal of the Torah for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, Paul quoted Deuteronomy 30:11-16, in regard to this faith saying that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will obtain life by it, and in regard to what it looks like to submit to Jesus as Lord. So there is nothing in the context of this verse that even remotely suggests that Christ is ending his eternal law, but just the opposite.
 
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