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Featured Are you a Jew under the law or a gentile ?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jesus is YHWH, Oct 16, 2020.

  1. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. The verse says your faith does not nullify the Law. Law is established. Your explaination doesn`t match what the verse says.

    es·tab·lish

    verb
    1. 1.
      set up (an organization, system, or set of rules) on a firm or permanent basis.
      "the British established a rich trade with Portugal"
    2. 2.
      achieve permanent acceptance or recognition for.
      "the principle of the supremacy of national parliaments needs to be firmly established"


    Romans 2

    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
     
  2. Swag365

    Swag365 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm. I would call myself a gentile under the law.
     
  3. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    Would you like me to help you out and tell you what Romans 3:31 really means?
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe we establish (or support or fulfill) the Old Law by keeping the New Covenant (See: Romans 13:8-10). However, each believer has a different way of understanding what keeping the New Covenant means. Some believe that the keeping of the New Covenant is simply to have a belief alone on Jesus as the Savior. Others believe one has to be saved by faith in Christ + keeping certain aspects of the Old Law. Others believe one (Such as myself) is saved by God's grace through faith in Christ and His mercy + keeping the New Testament commands (and not the keeping of the ceremonial laws of the OT like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, and dietary laws, etc.).
     
  5. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I haven't been set free from the law; I was never under it.
    Jesus quoted, affirmed and summed up the 10 commandments, so they're fine.

    I am in Christ, who fulfilled the Jewish law. In him I am free, John 8:32.
     
  6. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Member

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    Rom 3:31 with additional context:

    Rom 3:
    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
    (NOTE: This verse declares Jesus righteous & declares Jesus the justifer of those who believe/have faith in Christ. Not those that follow/keep the law)

    27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
    (NOTE: """THE LAW OF FAITH""")

    28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
    (NOTE: Man is justified = Declared righteous = by "FAITH" without the deeds of the law).

    29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
    (NOTE: He is God of BOTH, Jew & Gentile)

    30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
    (NOTE: God justifies = judiciously declares one righteous. BOTH the circumcision = JEW, by "FAITH". And uncircumcision = GENTILES through "FAITH")

    31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
    (NOTE: If you'll read verse 31 in context. Its the new covenant LAW OF FAITH thats been established, just "REREAD vs 27".)
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
  7. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We are gentiles who are partakers of the blessings of having our sins forgiven and getting to know God which are part of the new covenant God made with Jews!

    Romans 11 shows us that we gentiles being saved are going to provoke Israel to jealousy and thus seeing the nation get saved (Zech 13)
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    What do you call people who hang out with musicians?

    Drummers. :tearsofjoy:
     
  9. Bruce Leiter

    Bruce Leiter A sinner saved by God's astounding grace and love

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    How do you square these inspired verses with Jesus' words in Matthew 5:17, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them"? I studied all these passages when I was in seminary and when I was a preacher and came to the following conclusions:

    First, the covenant given to Abraham is still in effect and continues to apply to Christians.

    Second, however, it is a new covenant, but in what sense?

    Third, God made the covenant in national form for Israel, but he changed the outward form of those laws for an international church after Jesus died and rose again.

    Fourth, the external forms of the sacrifices and festivals in the old covenant (testament) are finished, but the internal principles and main ideas of them continue in effect.

    Fifth, that's the reason the early church could worship on Sunday instead of Saturday to celebrate Jesus' resurrection and to use that different day to worship and rest.

    Sixth, another example is the unclean and clean foods in Leviticus 11. That outward distinction has ended, but the main idea is God's way to call us to his cleansing power to clean up our lives by the Spirit's power through Jesus' victory.

    Seventh, therefore, I am free from slavery to the old covenant but am an adopted child of God following the new covenant's guidelines for my grateful life.
     
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  10. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    I think Jesus teaching was under the old covenant showing them the heart of the law not the letter of the law. He was revealing to them the intent of the moral law and teaching its impossible to live it out. It is possible to live out those virtues once a person become born of the Spirit. It takes a life yielded to His Spirit for we are unable to do it in the flesh apart from Gods grace in us.

    Jesus is the kingdom of God/heaven Incarnate living among men during those 3 years of His earthly ministry. He showed us what it is like to be perfect as His heavenly Father is perfect, to be Holy, to be Good and none is Good but God, to live righteously before men and how to treat others, be humble and have the interest of others above our own interest. He is the law personified, the kingdom in the flesh, God Incarnate.

    I'm so glad He fulfilled the law on our behalf, became sin who knew no sin that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ. When He said it is finished it was. The only thing left was His Resurrection which gave Him the victory over sin, death and the devil. His victory is our victory as we have been baptized into his death and raised to newness of life through His Resurrection. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen !

    hope this helps !!!
     
  11. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but the context is that Faith does not make Law void. Romans 3:31 only makes sense when understood to be the old law. You went the wrong direction in your Bible, Paul doesn`t take up the 3:31 issue until Romans 7-8. There Paul himself explains it. As Peter said, sometimes Paul is hard to understand.
     
  12. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    I had to think on this a bit but I agree.
     
  13. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

    In order to recieve immunity from the Law you have to be in Christ. It is the indictment of sin, the charges, the legal penalties that was nailed to the cross Not the Laws of God.

    The Law was never able to save, they knew that even in the OT days. However, the Law retains it power over the lost to kill. That is the law Paul establishes in Romans 3:31

    Romans 2:12
    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

    Paul explains this in further detail in Romans 7-8. That`s why Paul in his Jewish teaching style sets you free and then seems to toss you back under the Law. The Law cannot pass away until the judgement is complete but it has no power over those who are in Christ and are grafted into the commonwealth of Israel.

    FYI, the New Covenant is a covenant with Israel and you have to join the Commonwealth through Jesus Christ in order to recieve the benefit.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  14. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Agreed that one must be in Christ to benefit from the New Covenant of
    His blood.
     
  15. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    LOL! If it helps you, I add the proviso that the commonwealth of Israel doesn`t include Jewish non believers, even so, soon comes a day when "all Israel shall be saved"
     
  16. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Ephesians 2:11-22
    Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

    :)
     
  17. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Sin is the transgression of God's law, so those who aren't under it have no need to refrain from sin, have no need of grace, and have no need of Jesus to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness. The freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to sin.

    Deuteronomy 13:4-5 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

    According to the above, verses, should the Israelites follow anyone who claims that we have been freed from God's commandments? Do you think that God freed the Israelites out of the house of slavery in Egypt in order to put them into a house of slavery to His commandments, or is it for freedom that God sets us free (Galatians 5:1)?
     
  18. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    Your profile says you are Messianic but you sound like a Gentile to me. The OP should have created a third choice :preach:
     
  19. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    Referring to the OP. A person can be born again without knowing any of the Faith vs Law vs Grace. Read Acts 2 for an example of how 3000 were born again without this knowledge. Move on to 2 Peter 1:3-10 for a template of conducting your Christian walk after being born again. The Law vs Faith argument in Galatians was mainly intended to correct early Jewish Christians who wanted to go back to the Law. The Faith vs Grace argument is mainly hairsplitting for the rest of us. Mercy please.
     
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