Are you a Jew under the law or a gentile ?

RickReads

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There are articles you can read if you'd prefer, but all of the studies are audio only.

In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what the Mosaic Law was given to instruct how to do. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In John 1:16-17, it says grace upon grace, so the grace of Christ was added upon the grace of the Mosaic Law. In 2 Peter 3:17-18, growing in grace is contrasted with being taken away by the error of lawless men. In Jude 1:4, the ungodly pervert God's grace into a license for immorality. Strong's defines “grace” as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life" and when God's will is reflected in our lives, it takes the form of obedience to His law (Psalms 40:8). So grace is the power of God to overcome lawlessness in our lives and God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation.

When John says "grace upon grace" he is saying that Jesus gives us grace and more grace. There is no place in the Bible that credits the Mosaic Law as a source of grace.

When you say "God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation." you are making Law of Moses a component of salvation which is the error of the Galatians.
Then in another post you acknowledge the Galatians error but then you end your remarks saying "that the one who obeys it will obtain life by it."

One who obeys law of Moses will obtain life by it? Again, you made it part of the salvation. That`s a problem, a repeat of the Galatians error.
 
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klutedavid

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Where does the foremost precept fit in; or did John override that in your opinion?
I do not offer any opinion on the matter.

The greatest commandment under the new covenant follows.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

The greatest precept in the law belongs to the old covenant.

Galatians 3:12
However, the Law is not of faith...
 
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klutedavid

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Yes yes and yes, but what does Romans 3:31 mean. That was the question no one seemed able to answer. I give the whole lot of you an F :doh:
I was aiming for an A+ since I only concentrate on, the death and resurrection of the Christ.
 
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klutedavid

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Matthew 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
That is so true under the old covenant, I agree. Alas Soyeong, we are now under a new covenant and under grace. The law is not of faith. The law is weak and useless. The works of the law are nothing more that human effort, the flesh striving to attain the righteousness of God.

Did you receive the Holy Spirit by the works of the law?
Do you believe that Jesus is least in the Kingdom according to his own words? Do you believe that Jesus hypocritically preached something other than what he practiced?
No not really. You cannot construct a theology based on the life of the Christ, preaching to the Jews. We are a new creation in Christ, we have a new heart, and we cannot sin now.
 
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HARK!

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The greatest commandment under the new covenant follows.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

Did you notice that the word "greatest" does not appear in these verses? Yahshua told us that the foremost precept is the Shema. Wouldn't the Shema be one of His commandments?
 
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Soyeong

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That is so true under the old covenant, I agree. Alas Soyeong, we are now under a new covenant and under grace. The law is not of faith. The law is weak and useless. The works of the law are nothing more that human effort, the flesh striving to attain the righteousness of God.

Did you receive the Holy Spirit by the works of the law?No not really. You cannot construct a theology based on the life of the Christ, preaching to the Jews. We are a new creation in Christ, we have a new heart, and we cannot sin now.


John 12:44-50 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”

According to the above verses, do you think that is good for anyone to disregard any of Christ's words? Jesus did not specify that what he was was only true under the Mosaic Covenant. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is what being under grace looks like. God is trustworthy, therefor His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God is who trustworthy, so to put our faith in the law is to put our faith in the Lawgiver, while to deny that God's law is of faith is to deny that God us trustworthy.

I agree that works of the law are nothing more than human effort, unlike God's law. Obedience to any set of instructions is about putting our faith in the one who gave them, which is why Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law (Matthew 23:23). If our obedience to God's law were for God's good, then it would have been about striving to attain righteousness through our own efforts, but it was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so our obedience is instead about putting our faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live. So while we do not receive the Holy Spirit by works of the law, Holy Spirit is only given to those who obey God (Acts 5:32).

Jesus did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry doing by word or by example. There is nothing in the Bible that suggests that we shouldn't base our theology off of Christ's ministry, and it is contradictory for you to suggest that while using 1 John 3:23-24 to base your theology off of what Christ taught during his ministry. The way to follow Christ is not by refusing to follow what he taught by word and by example. Likewise, the way to refrain from sin does not involve refusing to follow God's instructions for how to refrain from sin. In 1 Corinthians 11:1, Paul instructed to be imitators of him for he is an imitator of Christ, so everything that Paul taught was in accordance with Jesus taught, but if you disagree, then you need to pick whether you are a follower of Paul or Christ.
 
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RickReads

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Did you notice that the word "greatest" does not appear in these verses? Yahshua told us that the foremost precept is the Shema. Wouldn't the Shema be one of His commandments?


I`ll fix for him and give him another bad grade later.

Matthew 22

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The answer to your question is no, it`s not a commandment.It might be a commandment of the Talmud I guess but I dunno.The Shema is a prayer not a precept and is taken from several different Bible passages so it`s not a Bible verse. It quotes scripture but is not entirely scripture so it`s man made.
There are commands to teach the laws in several places. Few people could read so they would recite. They did the same in the early days of the church. Shema recital is a tradition.

First precept of Shema is this: Hear O’ Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.
 
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Soyeong

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When John says "grace upon grace" he is saying that Jesus gives us grace and more grace. There is no place in the Bible that credits the Mosaic Law as a source of grace.

When you say "God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation." you are making Law of Moses a component of salvation which is the error of the Galatians.
Then in another post you acknowledge the Galatians error but then you end your remarks saying "that the one who obeys it will obtain life by it."

One who obeys law of Moses will obtain life by it? Again, you made it part of the salvation. That`s a problem, a repeat of the Galatians error.

John 1:16-17 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

It says grace upon grace and then list one example of grace being added upon another example. Again, in Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is how Jesus was gracious to us. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so I do not see how you can deny that being taught these things is an expression of God's grace or deny that following God's instructions for how to do these things is part of the content of God's free gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law looks like.

Paul's problem with in Galatians was not with those who were teaching Gentiles how to obey God's law as if obedience to God were somehow a negative thing, but rather his problem was with those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified. In Leviticus 18:5, Galatians 3:12, and Romans 10:5, the one who obeys God's law will attain life by it, so that is was what Paul was quoting in agreement with the OT. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul was speaking about works of the law, which are not of faith, and was contrasting them with the Book of the law, which is of faith. He associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, whole no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith in God. Likewise, in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so again obedience to it is the way to live by faith, unlike works of the law.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! Furthermore, that is the passage that Paul was quoting from in Romans 10:4-10. In Deuteronomy 32:47, it is our very life. In Proverbs 3:18, she is a tree of life for all who take hold of her. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter into eternal life, then obey the commandments.
 
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RickReads

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John 12:44-50 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”

According to the above verses, do you think that is good for anyone to disregard any of Christ's words? Jesus did not specify that what he was was only true under the Mosaic Covenant. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is what being under grace looks like. God is trustworthy, therefor His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God is who trustworthy, so to put our faith in the law is to put our faith in the Lawgiver, while to deny that God's law is of faith is to deny that God us trustworthy.

I agree that works of the law are nothing more than human effort, unlike God's law. Obedience to any set of instructions is about putting our faith in the one who gave them, which is why Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law (Matthew 23:23). If our obedience to God's law were for God's good, then it would have been about striving to attain righteousness through our own efforts, but it was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so our obedience is instead about putting our faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live. So while we do not receive the Holy Spirit by works of the law, Holy Spirit is only given to those who obey God (Acts 5:32).

Jesus did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry doing by word or by example. There is nothing in the Bible that suggests that we shouldn't base our theology off of Christ's ministry, and it is contradictory for you to suggest that while using 1 John 3:23-24 to base your theology off of what Christ taught during his ministry. The way to follow Christ is not by refusing to follow what he taught by word and by example. Likewise, the way to refrain from sin does not involve refusing to follow God's instructions for how to refrain from sin. In 1 Corinthians 11:1, Paul instructed to be imitators of him for he is an imitator of Christ, so everything that Paul taught was in accordance with Jesus taught, but if you disagree, then you need to pick whether you are a follower of Paul or Christ.

Paul`s teaching is an expansion of the gospel. He taught things Jesus didn`t reveal.

Ephesians 3

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
 
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klutedavid

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Did you notice that the word "greatest" does not appear in these verses? Yahshua told us that the foremost precept is the Shema. Wouldn't the Shema be one of His commandments?
Here is what He wrote.

1 John 3:23-24
This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

Sure looks like the law is a no show in this new covenant.
 
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RickReads

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John 1:16-17 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

It says grace upon grace and then list one example of grace being added upon another example. Again, in Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is how Jesus was gracious to us. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so I do not see how you can deny that being taught these things is an expression of God's grace or deny that following God's instructions for how to do these things is part of the content of God's free gift of salvation. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's law through faith is what Jesus saving us from living in transgression of God's law looks like.

Paul's problem with in Galatians was not with those who were teaching Gentiles how to obey God's law as if obedience to God were somehow a negative thing, but rather his problem was with those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified. In Leviticus 18:5, Galatians 3:12, and Romans 10:5, the one who obeys God's law will attain life by it, so that is was what Paul was quoting in agreement with the OT. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul was speaking about works of the law, which are not of faith, and was contrasting them with the Book of the law, which is of faith. He associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, whole no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith in God. Likewise, in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so again obedience to it is the way to live by faith, unlike works of the law.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! Furthermore, that is the passage that Paul was quoting from in Romans 10:4-10. In Deuteronomy 32:47, it is our very life. In Proverbs 3:18, she is a tree of life for all who take hold of her. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter into eternal life, then obey the commandments.

The first 18 verses of John 1 are about Yeshua not the Law. His (Yeshua) fullness is the source from which all recieve the grace upon grace. Verse 17 is just a contrast between Moses and Yeshua. John gives Moses credit for the law and John clearly cites Yeshua as the source of grace and truth. The Law isn`t Johns topic, Yeshua is.

The word graciously in Psalms 119 is an appeal from David for God to be kind. It doesn`t have anything to do with grace as NT doctrine nor does it attach law to grace.

Leviticus 18:5, Galatians 3:12, and Romans 10:5, The only person who ever fulfilled this requirement is Yeshua ben Yahweh. Your Galatians and your Roman verses merit a closer look. They are not talking about keeping the whole law.

Isaiah 51:7 God said, "Hearken unto me" That is the salvation, knowing righteousness does not save.

Romans 10:8-10 is not a quote from the book of Deuteronomy, comparison only serves to show we have a different path to salvation now.

Deuteronomy 32:47, Proverbs 3:18, Matthew 19:17 -> All raise the question: What does Jesus command me to do? You haven`t answered that question.

Just as food for thought here is a link to a Messianic congregation that I would be able to support.

Tikvat Yisrael Messianic Synagogue | Our Vision & Beliefs
 
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RCrihfield

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In Romans 2:12, it is far better to be judged by the Mosaic Law than to perish apart from it. In Romans 2:13, only doers of the law will be justified. In Romans 2:14, Gentile believers will by nature do what the law requires.



Yes, Christ was born under the law (Galatians 4:4), so he was obligated to obey it, and he was sinless, so he set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to it, and those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). I do not think that Jesus hypocritically preached something other than what he practiced or that he established the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching by word and by example, but rather the New Covenant still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:33). In 1 Corinthians 11:1, Paul instructed us to be imitators of him as he was of Christ, so I think Paul also taught obedience to the Mosaic Law by word and by example, and that is what we are also called to do. In Acts 21:20-24, Paul was rejoicing that there were tens of thousands of Jews coming to faith who were all zealous for the Mosaic Law and he took steps to disprove false rumors that he had been teaching against it and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Acts 23:6, Paul still identified as a Pharisee, which is a sect of Judaism that observes the Mosaic Law. In Acts 24:24, Paul worshiped the God of his fathers, believing everything laid down in the Law and the Prophets, and God's law is His instructions for how to worship Him. According to John 12:44-50, we need to listen to Christ's words, so I don't think that Paul opposed anything that Christ taught by word and by example, but if you do, then you need to choose between whether you are a follower of Christ or a follower of Paul.

In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover Lamb, however, instead of concluded that we no longer need to bother with Passover, he concluded that we should therefore continue to keep it. In Acts 16:3, Paul had Timothy circumcised. In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for why commanded circumcision, so the problem was that circumcision was being used for a man-made purpose that went above and beyond the purpose for which God commanded it. So the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against that requirement, and a ruling against something that God never commanded should not be mistaken as being a ruling against obeying what God has commanded as if he Jerusalem Council had the authority to countermand God.



In Deuteronomy 30:11-14, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey, and in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, so take your pick:

1.) God was wrong in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 and the Jerusalem Council was correct in Acts 15:10-11.

2.) God was correct in Deuteronomy 30:11-14 and the Jerusalem Council was wrong in Acts 15:10-11.

3.) They are both correct, but are not both speaking about the same law.

My vote is for #3 because they were speaking about things that had been added on top of what God had commanded, as I showed with Acts 15:1. Furthermore, the Psalms contain extremely high praise for God's law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of God's law, then we will also delight in obeying it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22), which means that the belief that the Psalms are Scripture is incompatible with the belief that God's law is a heavy burden that no one can bear. For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the Law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night. We can't believe in the truth of these words while not allowing them to shape our view of God's law. The view that we have of the law matches the view that we have of the Lawgiver, which was certainly the case with David.



The moment that you recognize that those four laws are not an exhaustive list of everything that would be required of mature Gentile believers is the moment that those verses can no longer be used to put any sort of limitation on which laws Gentiles should follow. To love God is to obey His commandments, so saying that there are commandments that Gentiles shouldn't follow is saying that there are areas where Gentiles shouldn't love God. As stated, these four laws were a listed intended for new believers who were coming to faith, which they excused in Acts 15:21 by saying that they would continue to learn about how to obey Moses every Sabbath in the synagogues. It's kind of like how an employer doesn't require a new employee to memorize everything that they will ever need to know about how to do their job up front, but rather in order to avoid making it too difficult for them, they start by teaching them the basics with the understanding that they will continue to learn how to do the rest on the job.



If the Mosaic Law teaches us about who God is and if we should live in a way that testifies about who God is, then we should obey the Mosaic Law. For example, God's righteous laws teach us about His righteousness, however, they do not exhaustively describe every aspect of God's righteousness, so any two sets of instructions for how to express God's righteousness are going to contain the same types of laws, but vary only in the degree of how thoroughly they describe the aspects of God's righteousness. However, God's righteousness is eternal, so all of the aspects of His righteousness that He taught to various people are all eternally valid ways to express His righteousness. So even if Noah knew about an aspect of God's righteousness that God did not reveal to Abraham, or vice versa, then we should still act in accordance with it if it is our goal to testify about who God is.

Wow....I don't even know what to say to that response. I am truly stunned.

Can we agree that Jesus is our high priest?
Can we agree that God DID institute circumcision?
Can we agree that Paul counted his Jewish education as dung that he might gain Christ?
Can we agree that he who keeps the law of Moses is indebted to the whole law?

Acts 15 is so blunt in answering your comments, I don't know how you could miss the point. Gentiles were not told to start with the 4 things mentioned and then work on incorporating the rest of Judaism as they learned?! Just the opposite is true.

The book of Hebrews is entirely about the superiority of Christ to the law of Moses. If Moses could save us then God would not have sought Christ to come and change it.

In your quotes from acts, just like the dems today, you cherry pick the phrase you want to the exclusion of the truth. Paul made his comments to quell the anger (or try to) of the Jews who sought to have him killed for teaching against Moses. (Which he did do)
He tried to use his "Harvard" education to his advantage but still got hauled before a Roman court by his brethren (Jews who wished him dead).

Romans is so sarcastic about keeping the law it is almost funny. Again, the contrast is draw between one in which obedience (perfectly) to ordinances is required and sacrifices vs grace through faith in Jesus.


Acts 15
1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

You seem to be most like the ones who disputed Paul here in this passage. I really don't see how you can miss the point.

You have an agenda.
 
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RickReads

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Wow....I don't even know what to say to that response. I am truly stunned.

Can we agree that Jesus is our high priest?
Can we agree that God DID institute circumcision?
Can we agree that Paul counted his Jewish education as dung that he might gain Christ?
Can we agree that he who keeps the law of Moses is indebted to the whole law?

Acts 15 is so blunt in answering your comments, I don't know how you could miss the point. Gentiles were not told to start with the 4 things mentioned and then work on incorporating the rest of Judaism as they learned?! Just the opposite is true.

The book of Hebrews is entirely about the superiority of Christ to the law of Moses. If Moses could save us then God would not have sought Christ to come and change it.

In your quotes from acts, just like the dems today, you cherry pick the phrase you want to the exclusion of the truth. Paul made his comments to quell the anger (or try to) of the Jews who sought to have him killed for teaching against Moses. (Which he did do)
He tried to use his "Harvard" education to his advantage but still got hauled before a Roman court by his brethren (Jews who wished him dead).

Romans is so sarcastic about keeping the law it is almost funny. Again, the contrast is draw between one in which obedience (perfectly) to ordinances is required and sacrifices vs grace through faith in Jesus.


Acts 15
1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

You seem to be most like the ones who disputed Paul here in this passage. I really don't see how you can miss the point.

You have an agenda.

If you don`t mind, can you provide an example of sarcasm from the book of Romans?

An objective look at Paul`s teaching reveal him to be complex. Even Peter stated he is hard to understand. What he taught about the Law isn`t simple.

i.e. I asked the simple question, what does Romans 3:31 mean? No one here stepped up with a solid answer. Those who tried just talked around the issue.
 
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RCrihfield

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If you don`t mind, can you provide an example of sarcasm from the book of Romans?

Romans 2:
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

And. Ch 3:
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

And ch 6:

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

And ch 7:

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Keep reading....your answer is there in this very book...(the meaning of ch 3:31 that is)

Paul is clearly not establishing the old law but a new law...law of faith, here. The law of grace in other places. He is not taking us back to Moses, but to the more basic law of love God and love your neighbor.
 
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RickReads

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Romans 2:
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

And. Ch 3:
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

And ch 6:

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

And ch 7:

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Keep reading....your answer is there in this very book...(the meaning of ch 3:31 that is)

Paul is clearly not establishing the old law but a new law...law of faith, here. The law of grace in other places. He is not taking us back to Moses, but to the more basic law of love God and love your neighbor.

And you believe all this is sarcasm? :scratch:

sar·casm
noun
  1. the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.
    "his voice, hardened by sarcasm, could not hide his resentment"

If Paul is guilty of sarcasm then he sinned when he wrote the epistle which is why I bring it to your attention. This comment to our Hebrew Roots friend leaves you vulnerable to his criticism of Gentile Christianity.

PS, Your answer to Romans 3:31 is also vulnerable to his criticism. I give you an F for your effort.
 
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God's nature is the mark and sin is anything that misses that mark,

God is perfect and anyone who is less than perfect in thought, word or deed, sins.

so the actions that have been revealed to be sinful have always been and will always be sinful regardless of whom those instructions were given to.

No. It's not correct to assume that instructions and laws give to one group of people must apply to everyone else too.

God led the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt - through Moses, but HE did that, HE was their Saviour.
God parted the Red Sea and saved them, again, from the Egyptians.
God led them to Mt Sinai where he gave them his commands and told them how they were to live as his people. They were to worship only one God, not many, like the neighbouring countries. They were given a sacrificial system for when they sinned. They were told to be holy, which means separate - they were not to marry people from other nations, they were not to eat certain foods, they were to wear clothes made from only one kind of fabric, they were not to use false measures or defraud their fellow countryman, they were to stone to death anyone who did not keep the Sabbath or who committed adultery. And they were also give a lot of minor rules, all found in the book of Leviticus, such as not trimming their beards, not touching people with skin conditions or women at certain times of the month.
They were given feasts to keep, most of which were based on the Passover or their time in the wilderness, so that they would remember what God had done for them. Many times in the OT we read "The Lord said to the people; 'I am the Lord who brought you out of Egypt - keep the Covenant I made with you'."

These were God's people, given his Covenant.
Over ad over again in the NT they broke this covenant. It's a recurring theme; sin, get punished, repent, get restored, think that because you are doing ok God is pleased with you and sin again.
On God's part, he never broke his Covenant and he had intended it to be forever - but it was broken by the people.
Centuries later, Jeremiah told people that God would make a New covenant.

Then Jesus came.
Jesus, God on earth, showed people how to live, taught them what God wanted, showed them, by healing and restoring people, what the Kingdom of heaven would be like and challenging their religious ideas and ideas about what the Messiah would look like. He taught that the first would be last an the last first; and demonstrated it. He taught that God loved everyone, and showed it by healing, and teaching, Gentiles. He went to the feast of Tabernacles and told everyone that he was the Living Water, John 7:38. He taught that his blood would be poured out for the forgiveness of sins, Matthew 26:28 and that he would give his life as a sacrifice for many, Mark 10:45, John 10:11. He was declared by John the Baptist to be the Lamb of God, John 1:29, and also later by Paul and Peter, 1 Corinthians 5:7, 1 Peter 1:19-20. He said that he was the only way to the Father, John 14:6 and the giver of eternal life, John 3:16, John 3:36, John 6:40, John 6:53, John 10:10.

The early church had to work out what all this meant in light of what they had always been taught. But they taught that Jesus had died for sin and was the only Saviour, and took that Gospel to the Gentiles. They taught that Gentiles didn't need to be circumcised to be saved, and didn't even mention the food and hygiene laws. Paul said that food brings no one closer to God - and he taught that if someone is circumcised it means that Christ died for nothing.

I don't know about you but I am what the Jews would call a gentile. Neither I nor my ancestors were saved from Egypt, given God's law and told "if you keep this you are my people."
Instead I was taken to Sunday School, learned about Jesus, accepted, and later gave my life to, Jesus and am his follower. I am reconciled to God through Jesus, not animal sacrifices. I am made holy through Jesus, not wearing certain clothes and eating certain foods. He sent his Holy Spirit to live in me.

So to say to me "now that you are a follower of Jesus, who is the Jewish Messiah, you must go back and put yourself under laws which were part of a specific Covenant made with a certain group of people and which Jesus has fulfilled in any case"; makes no sense.

In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which includes refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45),

God was giving instructions to a certain group of people and told them what holiness looked like to them.
Or should we have said "no, Jesus, don't send us your Holy Spirit to live in us. We will just give up bacon sandwiches and won't wear polyester mix clothes from M&S; that'll do it, that's what holiness is."?

If it your goal to live in a way that expresses God's nature and that testifies about who He is instead of bearing false witness against Him, then you will seek by faith to follow the instructions that God has given for how to do that regardless of whether you are a Jew or a Gentile.

God is love, 1 John 4:8. His nature is love. He sent Jesus to show us his love, 1 John 3:16.
Jesus commanded us to love each other as he loves us - and he showed his love by laying down his life for sinners.

In 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included as part of God's chosen people, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, and a treasure of God's own possession,

Yes, because Jesus died for everyone - Jew and Gentile.
That doesn't mean that Gentiles have to put themselves under laws that were given to the Jews, which they themselves were incapable of keeping.

There is no point in a Gentile wanting to become part of a holy nation while wanting nothing to do with following God's instructions for how to live as part of a holy nation.

ALL believers are the church and ALL are a holy nation.
We don't need to say to God "right, we want to be part of a holy nation now. Oh, that was what Israel were called to be; I guess to be part of a holy nation we have to live like Israelites and keep all the laws that they were once given." Even Jews don't keep those laws now; they have no sacrificial system and no temple where they can keep the feasts.

Everything changed when Jesus came to earth - new Covenant, new way of being forgiven and reconciled to God, new way of talking to God (no longer through prophets but directly), new idea of holiness, new teaching about the temple (WE are God's temple.)

Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law by setting an example of how to walk in obedience to it,

No.
He never sinned, but he touched people who had skin conditions and who were bleeding, taught and healed on the Sabbath, let a woman go who had been found in the act of adultery and refused to condemn his disciples for not washing their hands or walking through a cornfield, picking and eating grain. The Scribes and Pharisees were unhappy with this and criticised and tried to condemn him.
Jesus never said to anyone "follow me and I will show you how to perfectly obey the law".

Paul still identified as a Pharisee in Acts 23:6, so he never ceased to be a devout Pharisee.

Possibly he still had that title, just as he was still Jewish.
But he wouldn't have been accepted as a Pharisee while he was teaching about a man they perceived to be a false Messiah.

While Paul said circumcision has no value, that what matters is obeying the commandments of God (1 Corinthians 7:19), he also said that circumcision has much value in every way (Romans 3:1-2),

What it stood for had value - God had made a covenant with Abraham that he would have many descendants, even though he was over 90. Abraham trusted God, and because of that trust - that he and Sarah would become parents, even though it was biologically impossible - God considered him to be righteous. Jewish converts were not to be ashamed that they had been circumcised or try to reverse it, if such a thing were even possible - but neither could they cling onto it, believe that it was what saved the and try to force it on others. Jesus said nothing at all about circumcision.

He certainly was not saying that obedience to the commandments of God no longer matters.

Certain commands, yes, he was; circumcision meant that Christ died for nothing and food brought no one closer to God.
At the Council of Jerusalem the letter written to Gentile converts mentioned only refraining from meat with blood in it, the meat of strangled animals and from food offered to idols. Even then, a few years later, Paul was teaching that an idol was nothing and as long as it did not offend another Christian, they could eat meat that had been offered to it.
None of the laws written in Leviticus were mentioned, or taught, to Gentiles. It seems to have simply been assumed that because the only way, years ago, the Israelites could show their holiness was by keeping the commands given to them by God, the only way we can be holy today is by doing the same. Not at all. The Holy Spirit who lives in us makes us holy and transforms us into Jesus' image and likeness, 2 Corinthian 3:18.

What Jesus was telling people to do when he quoted the greatest two commandments should not mean someone different than what God was telling the Israelites to do when He gave those commandments. All the commandments that God has given are examples of what it looks like to love God with all of heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves,

I have no problem at all with the 10 commandments.
I am talking about all the food and hygiene laws mentioned in Leviticus, some of which - as a woman - I cannot keep anyway.

If by "commandments of God" you mean the 10 commandments, I agree with you - Jesus never said we should break those, nor that they were irrelevant. They are still relevant because Jesus taught and affirmed them.
It's all the other detailed food and hygiene laws I'm talking about. Jesus never said that gentiles should believe in him, receive eternal life and then obey the food laws. Neither he, nor the 10 commandments, mention the food laws or circumcision.
 
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Soyeong

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Wow....I don't even know what to say to that response. I am truly stunned.

Can we agree that Jesus is our high priest?
Can we agree that God DID institute circumcision?
Can we agree that Paul counted his Jewish education as dung that he might gain Christ?
Can we agree that he who keeps the law of Moses is indebted to the whole law?

I agree that Jesus is our High Priest and that God instituted circumcision, however, Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law, such as God's law, works of the law, and the law of sin, so if you assume that he was always speaking about the Law of Moses, then you are guaranteed to misunderstand what he was saying. For example, in Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, and in Romans 7:25, he contrasted God's law with the law of sin. To give another example, in Acts 10:28, Peter referred to a law that forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles, which is not a law that is found anywhere in the Law of Moses, and is therefore a man-made law. In Galatians 2:11-16, it was this law that Peter was obeying when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles, and by doing so he was giving credibility to those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified, which is why Paul rebuked him and reiterated that we are justified by faith, not by works of the law. So again, the problem that Paul was dealing with in Galatians was not with God's law as if obedience to God were somehow a negative thing, but rather his problem was with works of the law, which is what they would have been indebted to.

Either there are right and wrong incorrect reasons for someone to choose to become circumcised, and Paul only spoke against getting circumcised for the wrong reasons or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised (Acts 16:3), and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. As I previously talked about in Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become justified, which was never the purpose for why God commanded circumcision, so they were only speaking against becoming circumcised for the wrong reason, not against obeying God's commands. Even if they had been trying to speak against obeying God's commands, they didn't have the authority to countermand God.

In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from God's law, so if you think that is what the Jerusalem Council was doing, then you should be quicker to think that they needed to repent of their sins, rather than to follow them in sin, but that is not what they were doing. Likewise, in Deuteronomy 13:4-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone was a false prophet who was not speaking for Him was if they taught against obeying His law, so God simply did not give His people any room to follow someone who tries to do that. In Acts 17:11, if the Bereans had rejected Paul as being a false prophet because he had been teaching against obeying God's law, then they would have been acting in accordance with what God had instructed them do, but they diligently tested everything he said against OT Scriptures to see if what he said was true and then they believed him, so you should not interpret Paul as saying things that they would have flat out rejected.

In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that the Pharisees search the Scriptures because they think that in them they have eternal life and that they testify about him, yet they refuse to come to him that they may have life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter into eternal life, then obey the commandments, so eternal life can be found in OT Scriptures and the Pharisees were correct to search for it there, but they needed to recognize that the goal of everything in OT Scriptures is to testify about how to have a relationship with Christ and to come to him through that for eternal life. In Philippians 3:8, Paul was in the same boat as the Pharisees, where he had been keeping the Mosaic Law without having a focus on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law and counted it all as rubbish. In Romans 10:4, Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith.

Acts 15 is so blunt in answering your comments, I don't know how you could miss the point. Gentiles were not told to start with the 4 things mentioned and then work on incorporating the rest of Judaism as they learned?! Just the opposite is true.

What else do you think was being said in Acts 15:21 as it relates to the verses 19-20? Do you think that there are any religions that require new converts to memorize everything that they will ever need to know about how to practice their religion on day one? Even in Christianity, there is a sermon every week to teach us about our religion and we can study the Bible our whole lives while still learning new things, so there are things that can be taught over time and things that are important for new converts to know on day one, such as four laws that would help Gentiles to make a clean break from paganism. There was a sudden influx of new believers coming out of paganism who were unfamiliar with Christianity, so in order to avoid overwhelming them, it would have become important to be in the same page about which things needed to be taught on day one and which things can be taught over time every Sabbath in the synagogues as they mature in their faith. If new believers were hearing different things about what Christ's believed and about what they should do depending on which person they talked with, then that would have been overwhelming for them. There is no sense in thinking that new believers were going to be taught Moses every Sabbath in the synagogues while also rejecting what Moses taught.

The book of Hebrews is entirely about the superiority of Christ to the law of Moses. If Moses could save us then God would not have sought Christ to come and change it.

While Christ is superior to Moses, the same Father who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus, so there is no disagreement. Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and did not hypocritically preach something other than he practiced, so his purpose in coming was not to making changes to it, but to teach us how to correctly obey it, and if he had tried to make changes to it, then he would have sinned in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 and disqualified himself from being our Savior. Likewise, he would have been a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 13:4-5. In John 14:24, Jesus said his teaching were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not depart from what the Father had taught. We do not earn our salvation by obeying the Mosaic Law because it was never given for that purpose, but that doesn't mean that we don't need to obey it for the purposes for which it was given.

In your quotes from acts, just like the dems today, you cherry pick the phrase you want to the exclusion of the truth. Paul made his comments to quell the anger (or try to) of the Jews who sought to have him killed for teaching against Moses. (Which he did do)
He tried to use his "Harvard" education to his advantage but still got hauled before a Roman court by his brethren (Jews who wished him dead).

If you think that I've taken verses in Acts out of context, then by all means please explain how they should be correctly understood in the proper context. Paul said that he worshiped the God of his fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, so please explain why you think that is cherry picking.

In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the correct response to what Jesus accomplished on the cross is to become zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law, and in Acts 21:20, they were glorifying God that this was happening with tens of thousands of Jews who have believed. In 2 Peter 3:15-17, it says that Paul is difficult to understand, but that those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction and are carried away by the error of lawless men, so when Paul is correctly understood, we can be confident that he never spoke against Moses. So I have interpreted Paul and James as acting genuinely in wanting to disprove false rumors that he had been teaching against Moses and to show that he continued to live in observance of the law, and as genuinely testifying in court that he continued to worship the God of his fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, whereas in order to maintain your position, you need to interpret Paul and James as openly admitting to deceiving people about what they were teaching and expecting no one to notice.

Romans is so sarcastic about keeping the law it is almost funny. Again, the contrast is draw between one in which obedience (perfectly) to ordinances is required and sacrifices vs grace through faith in Jesus.

If you can call it being sarcastic, then it was nevertheless in favor of obeying God's law. For example:

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so by speaking against continuing in sin, he was saying that we should live in obedience to God's law. I don't recall Paul saying anything in Romans about needing perfect obedience to ordinances. In Romans 6:14-15, Paul describe the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe God's holy, righteous, and good law, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. Furthermore, in verse 15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, so again we still need to obey God's law while under grace. Every example of someone living by faith in the Bible is also of someone living in obedience to God's will, such as with the examples listed in Hebrews 11, and not once is it treated as an alternative to obeying God's will.

Acts 15
1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

You seem to be most like the ones who disputed Paul here in this passage. I really don't see how you can miss the point.

You have an agenda.

I completely agree with Paul's stance against the Judaizers and have never once stated that anyone needs to become circumcised in order to earn our salvation. Christ taught obedience to the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so if you think the position that followers of God should follow what God has commanded in accordance with what Christ taught to be pushing an agenda, then so be it. All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, and even Jesus began his ministry with that message, so that is the kingdom agenda with which I have been promoting, and it would be good if your agenda was the same.
 
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Soyeong

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Paul`s teaching is an expansion of the gospel. He taught things Jesus didn`t reveal.

Ephesians 3

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to the nations before the end (Matthew 24:12-14). The same goes for Acts 2:38 for how Peter’s audience knew what sin is when he told them to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. In Romans 15:4, Paul said that OT Scripture is written for our instruction and in 15:18-19, his Gospel message involved bringing the Gentiles to obedience in word and in deed, so he was on the same page as Jesus about teaching repentance from our sins. In Ephesians 3:6, Paul described the mystery as Gentiles being fell heirs, which was in accordance with what Jesus prophesied would be proclaimed to the nations, and in accordance with what Jesus commissioned his disciples to teach to the nations.

The first 18 verses of John 1 are about Yeshua not the Law. His (Yeshua) fullness is the source from which all recieve the grace upon grace. Verse 17 is just a contrast between Moses and Yeshua. John gives Moses credit for the law and John clearly cites Yeshua as the source of grace and truth. The Law isn`t Johns topic, Yeshua is.

I agree that Yeshua is the focus of the first 18 verses of John 1, however, that doesn't mean that it doesn't make a true statement about the law being listed as an example of grace upon grace.

The word graciously in Psalms 119 is an appeal from David for God to be kind. It doesn`t have anything to do with grace as NT doctrine nor does it attach law to grace.

The word used in Psalms 119:29 Hebrew word chen comes from chanan, so you're splitting hairs. In any case, in Titus 2:11-14, it uses the word "grace" in regard to describing our salvation as being trained to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, and God's law instructs how to do that.

Leviticus 18:5, Galatians 3:12, and Romans 10:5, The only person who ever fulfilled this requirement is Yeshua ben Yahweh. Your Galatians and your Roman verses merit a closer look. They are not talking about keeping the whole law.

"To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the Mosaic Law in Matthew 5, he proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it or by completing our understanding of it. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that only Jesus did. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret that in the same way as you interpret fulfilling the Law of Moses.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse so choose life! So it was presented as a choice and as a possibility, not something that only the Son of God can do. Thinking that only the Son of God could fulfill it means that God essentially gave the law with the goal of cursing His children when in reality it was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). God can be trusted to give good laws to His children and to set us up for success, not for failure. In 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey his commandments, which are not burdensome, so to say that only the Son of God could obey them is to deny that they are not burdensome and to deny that there is anyone other than the Son of God who has ever loved God.

Isaiah 51:7 God said, "Hearken unto me" That is the salvation, knowing righteousness does not save.

Isaiah 51:7 “Listen to me, you who know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law;

"Listen to me" means "listen to me" and has nothing to with what you said. It uses a parallel statement to describe those who know righteousness as being people in whose heart is God's law, which is straightforwardly because God's law is His instructions for how to know righteousness.

Romans 10:8-10 is not a quote from the book of Deuteronomy, comparison only serves to show we have a different path to salvation now.

I really don't see how you can that deny that Paul was quoting from Deuteronomy. There has only ever been one path to salvation.

Romans 9:6-9 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

Deuteronomy 32:47, Proverbs 3:18, Matthew 19:17 -> All raise the question: What does Jesus command me to do? You haven`t answered that question.

In 1 John 2:3-6, it associates the instruction to follow Christ's commands with the instruction that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so there is no distinction in commands between what Jesus taught by word or by example, and what he taught by example was how to obey the Mosaic Law.

Just as food for thought here is a link to a Messianic congregation that I would be able to support.

Tikvat Yisrael Messianic Synagogue | Our Vision & Beliefs

I'll check them out, thanks.
 
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God is perfect and anyone who is less than perfect in thought, word or deed, sins.

God's law is perfect (Psalms 19:7), so obedience to it is what perfection looks like.

No. It's not correct to assume that instructions and laws give to one group of people must apply to everyone else too.

If God's law testifies about Him and if we should live in a way that testifies about Him, then we should we should obey God's law regardless of which group it was given to, but if God's laws do not testify about Him and were instead arbitrarily given to different groups of people, then I would agree that it is not correct to assume that laws given to one group of people must apply to everyone else too. Jesus lived in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, so everything in it testifies about him, which is why he said in John 5:39 that the Scriptures testify about him, so if it is your goal to live in a way that testifies about about Jesus rather than in a way that bears false witness against Him, then you will live in accordance with OT Scriptures.

God led the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt - through Moses, but HE did that, HE was their Saviour. God parted the Red Sea and saved them, again, from the Egyptians.

God led them to Mt Sinai where he gave them his commands and told them how they were to live as his people. They were to worship only one God, not many, like the neighbouring countries. They were given a sacrificial system for when they sinned. They were told to be holy, which means separate - they were not to marry people from other nations, they were not to eat certain foods, they were to wear clothes made from only one kind of fabric, they were not to use false measures or defraud their fellow countryman, they were to stone to death anyone who did not keep the Sabbath or who committed adultery. And they were also give a lot of minor rules, all found in the book of Leviticus, such as not trimming their beards, not touching people with skin conditions or women at certain times of the month.
They were given feasts to keep, most of which were based on the Passover or their time in the wilderness, so that they would remember what God had done for them. Many times in the OT we read "The Lord said to the people; 'I am the Lord who brought you out of Egypt - keep the Covenant I made with you'."

The actions that the God of Israel has taken and the commands that He has given testify about Him, so to keep Passover is to testify about what is done, while to refuse to keep Passover is to bear false witness against what God has done. Keeping Passover is not about who you are and whether you happen to have ancestors that can be traced back to Egypt, but rather it is about who the God of Israel is. If a Gentile wants to become a follower of the God of Israel, then they should life in a way that testifies about Him. Gentiles can look at the Mosaic Law that Jesus taught how to follow by word and by example and can decide whether to become a follower of him, but it is contradictory for a Gentile to want to become his follower while not wanting to follow what he taught by word and by example. The only way that there has ever been to be made holy is through Jesus, and because we have been made holy we ought to live in a way that testifies about his holiness by not wearing certain clothes and eating unclean animals instead of bearing false witness against his holiness. The Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

God is love, 1 John 4:8. His nature is love. He sent Jesus to show us his love, 1 John 3:16.
Jesus commanded us to love each other as he loves us - and he showed his love by laying down his life for sinners.

Indeed, Jesus shows us his love through his actions and what that looked like was a life lived in complete obedience to God's law, so that is how we are to love as he loved us. All of the laws that God has given are examples of what it looks like to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so they are all connected. By following the Mosaic Law, we are testifying about God's love, and by refusing to submit to it we are bearing false witness against God's love.

Yes, because Jesus died for everyone - Jew and Gentile.
That doesn't mean that Gentiles have to put themselves under laws that were given to the Jews, which they themselves were incapable of keeping.

God has given instructions for how His children are to act. In 1 John 3:4-10, sin is the transgression of God's law, practicing sin in transgression of it is contrasted with practicing righteousness in obedience to it, and those who do not practice righteousness are not children of God, so it is not just for Jews.

ALL believers are the church and ALL are a holy nation.
We don't need to say to God "right, we want to be part of a holy nation now. Oh, that was what Israel were called to be; I guess to be part of a holy nation we have to live like Israelites and keep all the laws that they were once given." Even Jews don't keep those laws now; they have no sacrificial system and no temple where they can keep the feasts.

Everything changed when Jesus came to earth - new Covenant, new way of being forgiven and reconciled to God, new way of talking to God (no longer through prophets but directly), new idea of holiness, new teaching about the temple (WE are God's temple.)

The New Covenant was only made with the house of Judah and the house of Israel and it still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:31-33), so if you want to become joined to Israel and a partake of the New Covenant through faith in Messiah, then you are free to do so, but it is contradictory to want to be part of it while not wanting to be part of it.

No.
He never sinned, but he touched people who had skin conditions and who were bleeding, taught and healed on the Sabbath, let a woman go who had been found in the act of adultery and refused to condemn his disciples for not washing their hands or walking through a cornfield, picking and eating grain. The Scribes and Pharisees were unhappy with this and criticised and tried to condemn him.
Jesus never said to anyone "follow me and I will show you how to perfectly obey the law".

Jesus never sinned because none of those things were ever sinful, which is why Jesus criticized the Pharisees for condemning the innocent. Please explain how it is possible for someone to follow Christ while refusing to follow what he taught by word and by example.

Possibly he still had that title, just as he was still Jewish.
But he wouldn't have been accepted as a Pharisee while he was teaching about a man they perceived to be a false Messiah.

No one in the room challenged Paul's claim to be a Pharisee.

What it stood for had value - God had made a covenant with Abraham that he would have many descendants, even though he was over 90. Abraham trusted God, and because of that trust - that he and Sarah would become parents, even though it was biologically impossible - God considered him to be righteous. Jewish converts were not to be ashamed that they had been circumcised or try to reverse it, if such a thing were even possible - but neither could they cling onto it, believe that it was what saved the and try to force it on others. Jesus said nothing at all about circumcision.

In Romans 2:25, Paul said that circumcision indeed has value if you obey the law, so its value is dependent on our obedience to the law. The problem was that some Jews were considering their circumcision to be giving them a higher status than Gentiles, and it was this that Paul was denying had value, and that what had value was obeying God's commandments. In Isaiah 45:17, it says that all Israel will be saved, which led some to mistakenly think that they would be saved simply because they were circumcised and that Gentiles needed to become circumcised in order to become saved, but even those who are born into Israel need to be born again and obey God's commandments.

Certain commands, yes, he was; circumcision meant that Christ died for nothing and food brought no one closer to God.
At the Council of Jerusalem the letter written to Gentile converts mentioned only refraining from meat with blood in it, the meat of strangled animals and from food offered to idols. Even then, a few years later, Paul was teaching that an idol was nothing and as long as it did not offend another Christian, they could eat meat that had been offered to it.
None of the laws written in Leviticus were mentioned, or taught, to Gentiles. It seems to have simply been assumed that because the only way, years ago, the Israelites could show their holiness was by keeping the commands given to them by God, the only way we can be holy today is by doing the same. Not at all. The Holy Spirit who lives in us makes us holy and transforms us into Jesus' image and likeness, 2 Corinthian 3:18.

Either there are right and wrong reasons to become circumcised and Paul was speaking only against the wrong reasons, or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy (Acts 16:3) and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of the men in the US. In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the purpose for why God commanded circumcision, so the problem was that circumcision was being used for a man-made purpose that went above and beyond the purpose for which God commanded it. So there Jerusalem Council was only ruling against circumcision for the wrong reason, not against obeying God's command. They had no authority to countermand God, so that is not what they were trying to do. Christ is the exact image of God's nature and what that looked like was a life lived in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law, so it is contradictory for a Gentile to want to be transformed into Christ's image and likeliness while wanting nothing to do with what that looks like. Again, following God's instructions for how to do what is holy was never about trying to become holy, but about how to express the fact that God has made is holy.

I have no problem at all with the 10 commandments.
I am talking about all the food and hygiene laws mentioned in Leviticus, some of which - as a woman - I cannot keep anyway.

If by "commandments of God" you mean the 10 commandments, I agree with you - Jesus never said we should break those, nor that they were irrelevant. They are still relevant because Jesus taught and affirmed them.
It's all the other detailed food and hygiene laws I'm talking about. Jesus never said that gentiles should believe in him, receive eternal life and then obey the food laws. Neither he, nor the 10 commandments, mention the food laws or circumcision.

Do you think that God can't be trusted to guide us in how we should live when it comes to anything beyond the Ten Commandments? Jesus taught obedience to more than just the Ten Commandments both by word and by example and it is up for Gentiles to decide whether to become his follower. Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow, so we have no need of him to have taught or affirmed anything in order for us to know that we should still obey the Father. Jesus spent the vast majority of his time interacting with Jews, so an argument from silence about what it is not recorded that he said to Gentiles is pretty weak. He did commission His disciples to make disciples of all nations, teaching them everything that he had taught them.
 
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I`ll fix for him and give him another bad grade later.

Matthew 22

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The answer to your question is no, it`s not a commandment.It might be a commandment of the Talmud I guess but I dunno.The Shema is a prayer not a precept and is taken from several different Bible passages so it`s not a Bible verse. It quotes scripture but is not entirely scripture so it`s man made.
There are commands to teach the laws in several places. Few people could read so they would recite. They did the same in the early days of the church. Shema recital is a tradition.

First precept of Shema is this: Hear O’ Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.

If you are not aware if this, the Shema is called the Shema because the forst word in the Shema is Shema. The word Shema, translated to English is the word "hear."

If Yahshua said that the Shema is the foremost precept (he did) then it is. It's just that simple.
 
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