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Featured Are you a Jew under the law or a gentile ?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jesus is YHWH, Oct 16, 2020.

  1. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    Those saved at Acts 2 were all Law Keepers so it wasn`t an issue for them and the Galatians were mainly Gentiles, few Jews.

    Years ago when Yahoo groups were popular I was pretty active in it. Law vs Grace was probably the most commonly debated issue. Quite heatedly so. It would line up as once saved always saved vs conditional salvation. Both had their points and argument went round in circles :doh:
     
  2. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    The once saved always saved has some refutations in the Epistles - as much as I would like it to be true.
     
  3. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    It is true as long as you refuse satan`s efforts to make you give up.

    Give me your scriptures and let me take a look.
     
  4. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    Hi John, I`ll go ahead and give you a scripture first.

    This is the kind of security and confidence Jesus wants you to have.
    :
    v

    31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

    32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

    36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

    37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Romans 8
     
  5. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    Matthew 7:21-23 ESV / 127 helpful votes
    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


    Hebrews 3:12-14 "Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end."

    Hebrews 12:25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.


    Peter1:9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble.

    John5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

    Revelations 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  6. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    My comments ( ) and thx. I love to talk Bible. I`m normally more towards the works side of this issue but I know Jesus doesn`t like you doubting your salvation.

    Matthew 7:21-23 ESV / 127 helpful votes

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    ( These people point to their own works as they attempt to justify themselves, as a result they retain their sins. Your translation calls them workers of lawlessness which is another way of calling them sinners. The King James says workers of iniquity. Either term works to say they are sinners. This is the path of works for salvation.)

    Hebrews 3:12-14 "Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end."


    ( Notice the term "fall away". Anytime "fall away" appears in the New Testament it means to stop believing. For you to fall away in the manner they speak of you would have to stop believing in Jesus completely.)

    Hebrews 12:25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.


    ( Here again it speaks of turning away. That was the one condition I gave you. You have to endure, you can`t let satan make you give up. It`s very dangerous when people give up.)

    Peter1:9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins. 10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble.

    (Preceding these verses is a brief summary of all the good things Christian life provides. Peter says that someone who doesn`t have those things is blind but he also says they have been cleansed. Peter is painting a picture of lukewarmness which I admit is not a good place to be. You almost have me here but not quite. There is yet hope for this person.)

    John5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

    ( The sin leading to death is apostasy. Means to renounce or abandon the faith. John probably meant renounce which = fall away)

    Revelations 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.


    ( In this passage lukewarm means, showing little enthusiasm (per it`s definition), That`s not you John. Your concern for your own salvation proves you are hotter then lukewarm. Best I can do with this is tell you I don`t believe it of you. And someone who is lukewarm can always heat up and apply themselves a little bit. Bad thing about lukewarm, Jesus will make you go one way or the other. Lukewarmness doesn`t last.)

    So far we got falling away, turning away and lukewarmness. Secure as long as you don`t quit.I don`t see anything that indicates Jesus wants you to worry. Do you? You got anymore scriptures?
     
  7. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    @ John

    ( Jesus accomplishes your salvation without your help. If you believe that then you have no reason to worry.)


    Romans 3

    21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
     
  8. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Its impossible to lose :)
     
  9. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    Excellent advice to not quit.

    Galatian 6:9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
     
  10. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Member

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    Hello Rick,
    1st: I'd say, the OT law had long been established. Every verse I shared (post #26) prior to 31 say's otherwise.

    2nd: The book of Romans is written to NT believers, not in Israel, in Rome (Romans 1:7)

    3rd: Paul argued & won at the Council at Jerusalem (Acts 15:24). That NT gentiles were never under Mosaic law (Also see & please read Eph 2:12). BTW, Peter was his biggest supporter (Acts 15:7-9 please read 7-9).

    Despite the order that Paul's books/epistles were placed in our Bibles. Paul wrote Galatians 1st. The entire book is an aggressive attack against law/works for righteousness & a total rebuttal/defense of his Christ given message of by grace thru faith. And finally Rom 10:4. Best wishes, JJ
     
  11. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes RR,

    They use Rom 3 out of context. There was a law which required certain “works” to be performed before sin or unrighteousness could be forgiven. Paul called it “justification”.

    If a man sinned, Moses didn’t say “keep the Sabbath” and your sins are forgiven, or Love your neighbor and your sins are forgiven. He said to take an animal to a Levite Priest who would then perform sacrificial “works or deed”s” of atonement laws given to Levite’s.

    This temporary “Law” was to be in place “till the Seed should come”. But the Jews didn’t believe Jesus was the Seed and were still relying on these “works of the Law” for justification/atonement.

    Works of a Law Abraham didn’t have because it wasn’t “Added” until 430 years after Abraham obeyed Gods Commandments, Statutes and Laws.

    Abraham obeyed God, and it defined “Faith” for us.

    Good post RR :)
     
  12. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member Supporter

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    ROMANS 11:22 KJV "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness,..."

    “IF a man continues in HIS Goodness.” Paul isn’t teaching against himself in Rom. 3.
     
  13. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    As Christians we need to take the warnings in the Epistles (especially) seriously.

    1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
     
  14. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    In the passage below Paul talks about the Law as a document that remains in force and he plainly states who the Law has power over.

    "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine"

    Here is a link to some scholar resource. My assertion about the meaning of the word "law" wouldn`t normally be disputed.

    Romans 3:31 Commentaries: Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  15. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    What reason do you have to think that the people in Acts 2 or the people can act in accordance with 2 Peter 1:1-12 without knowledge of faith, law, and grace? Faithfulness, righteousness, and graciousness have always been compatible character traits of the same God, which He expressed throughout both the OT and the NT, so it is much more likely that someone who sees them as being opposed to each other know nothing about them. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law.

    In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law that is of works with a law that is of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith. Paul's problem in Galatians was not with those who were teaching Gentiles to obey God's law as if obedience to God were somehow a negative thing, but rather his problem was with those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified.
     
  16. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    The beauty of it is that you don't have to be a Theologian to act on 2 Peter 1. In fact most of the 12 original Apostles had the equivalent of a third grade education - they took God at His word.
     
  17. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    According to Scripture I'm a Jew by adoption under Grace...
     
  18. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Amen Jesus is our God and Savior !

    2 Peter 1:1
    Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
    To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
     
  19. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so someone who has never been under God's law has never needed to refrain from sin, has never needed grace, and has never needed Christ to have given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness. Christ was one of many who fulfilled God's law by teaching how to walk in obedience to it by word and by example and in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. In John 8:31-36, it is sin is transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage, so the freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to do what God has revealed in His law to be sin.
     
  20. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    2 Peter 1:2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

    It is contradictory to think that we don't have to have knowledge of God and Jesus our Lord in order for grace and peace to be multiplied in us in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. Being a disciple of a rabbi is roughly equivalent to going to Seminary.
     
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