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Featured Are you a Jew under the law or a gentile ?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jesus is YHWH, Oct 16, 2020.

  1. John Mullally

    John Mullally JohnM

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    Yes 2 Peter 1:4 does speak about requiring study. At that time, 2 Peter like the other Epistles (with the exception of 1 & 2 Timothy, Revelations, and Philemon) was written to common believers at a particular locality.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  2. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The way express God's nature is straightforwardly based on God's nature, not on any particular covenant, and God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to do that are eternally valid regardless of which covenant we are under. The only way for the New Covenant to have a different set of laws would be if it were made with a different God with a different nature and different instructions for how to express His nature. but the New Covenant still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:33). Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, he did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practice, and he did not go to the cross or establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching by word or by example. If Jesus had relaxed the least part of the law before or after the cross, then he would be the least in the kingdom of heaven by his own words in Matthew 5:17-19.

    God's law is spiritual in that it has always been intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples, and which express God's nature. If we correctly understand a principle, then we will take actions that are examples of that principle that express God's nature in accordance with what God's law instructs. For example, God's righteous laws testify about God's righteousness and how to express it, which allows us to abstract a principle of righteousness that guide us in doing what is righteous in obedience to God's law, but also guides us in how we should act when we are in a situation that isn't specifically prescribed by God's law. If someone thought that they understood the principle of righteousness, so no longer needed to take outward actions that expressed righteousness, then they would not be correctly understanding the principle, so there is no such thing as a spiritual principle that does not have a physical application.

    In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that the Scriptures testify about him, so to practice righteousness in obedience to God's law is to testify about Christ, while to do what is unrighteous is to bear false witness against Him. Likewise, in 1 Corinthians 5:6-8, Paul spoke in regard to how Passover foreshadowed Christ by drawing the connection of him being our Passover Lamb, however, instead of concluding that we no longer need to keep Passover, he concluded that we should therefore continue to keep the Feast. So to keep Passover is to testify that what Passover teaches us about Christ is true, while to refuse to keep Passover is to bear false witness against him.

    In Mark 7:6-9, Jesus criticized the Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting side the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions. So there is nothing wrong with someone choosing to follow their own tradition of worshiping God on Sunday in addition to obeying God's command to keep the 7th day holy, but they should not hypocritically set aside God's command in order to establish their own tradition. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness, so doing what is lawless in order to cerebrate his resurrection undermines what he accomplished on the cross. Jesus rose from the dead on the Feast of Firstfruits as the firstfruits from the dead, there there was already a day that is rich with symbolism that is in accordance with God's commands that we can use to celebrate the resurrection, which means that there is absolutely no need whatsoever to hypocritically set aside any of God's commands in order to do that.

    In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which includes refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45), so following those instructions testifies about God's holiness, while refusing to submit to them bears false witness against Christ.

    God did not save the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt in order to put them under slavery to the Mosaic Covenant, but rather it is for freedom that God sets us free (Galatians 5:1). In 1 John 3:4-10, sin is the transgression of God's law, practicing sin in disobedience to it is contrasted with practicing righteousness in obedience to it, and those who do not practice righteousness are not children of God.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  3. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    Here is the problem with your argument,

    "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."
     
  4. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    There is neither greek (gentile) or jew ... believers are sons and daughters of God

    Galatians 3:26
    For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
     
  5. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Yes, Adam disobeyed God's command and ate the fruit that he was forbidden to eat.

    No, we sin when we disobey God, put ourselves first, don't accept Jesus as our Saviour but try to be good enough to please him/get a place in heaven.

    Someone who has never heard of the OT law nor read the Bible still sins against God.

    That doesn't mean going backwards - accepting Christ who fulfilled the law for the Jews and then acting like a Jew and doing our best to keep that law.
    Saul of Tarsus was once a devout Pharisee. After he met Christ he taught that circumcision was nothing, that food does not bring anyone closer to God and that as an idol means nothing, it doesn't matter if you eat meat that has been sacrificed to it - unless it causes someone else to sin.

    God's law is to love him with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, love your neighbour as yourself and to act justly, love mercy and walk humbly before God, Micah 6:8. Jesus gave us a new commandment, to love as he loves.
    Jesus loves us perfectly - no one can love perfectly without God; therefore, we all sin.

    If you're talking about the Jewish food and hygiene laws, he didn't give them to me; I'm not a Jew.
     
  6. BrotherJJ

    BrotherJJ Member

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    Hi,
    I began in Rom 3:26, find additional context here:

    Rom 3:
    19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    (NOTE The law's job/purpose is to expose & condemn sin. We can't be justified by faith until we understand & acknowledge we are sinners. Sinners against our creator God's sovereign rule. Also see (Rom 7:7) We wouldn't known what sin is except by understanding the Law)

    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
    (NOTE: No flesh will be saved thru law keeping. The law give us an understanding of what sin is)

    21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    (NOTE: But now righteousness of God/Jesus Christ has been revealed)

    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    (NOTE: Thru the faith OF Jesus Christ, found in his sin atoning work. Anyone that trust in Christ's death & resurrection has Christ's righteousness imputed onto them thru faith)

    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    (NOTE: We are justified by God's grace thru faith placed in the redemptive sin atoning death & resurrection of Christ)

    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
    (NOTE: Propitiation means atonement, obtained thru faith in Jesus death (sins required wage PAID) burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (Father's receipt, sins payment received & accepted)

    Final thought:
    Heb 7:18–19 Tells us that the old Law was set aside “because it was weak & useless (for the law made nothing perfect).” Hebrews goes on to say that the Law was “only a shadow of the good things that are coming, not the realities themselves. Christ's death & resurrection is the light of the shadow. The Law can't make anyone perfect. (Heb 10:1)
     
  7. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    Your verses are only applicable to those who recieve Jesus. The Law is for those who do not recieve Him. That is my point and that is what Paul taught.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  8. Studyman

    Studyman Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hebrews 7-10 is speaking to the Levitical Priesthood, not Gods Commandments, Laws and Statues Jesus walked in. Jesus was perfect because He followed Gods Laws perfectly, “unto death”. He didn’t follow the Levitical Priesthood though. He forgave sins without ever sprinkling animal blood on the Alter.

    If you will notice, in those 4 chapters in Hebrews, there is no mention of any law other than those given specifically to Levi for the purpose of atonement. This is the “covenant” that became obsolete when Jesus became our High Priest and shed His Own blood to atone for our transgressions.
     
  9. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    The law grants the knowledge of sin and that's why we establish the law. All are not good and cannot measure up to the law. The law does not promise salvation or even righteousness.

    The law tells you that you have a serious problem and to wait for someone who can can fulfill it. Wait for someone who can obey it. Wait for someone who is good not a bad person.

    The law tells you in no uncertain terms that you are lost, sinful, and completely selfish.

    Salvation is a gift and available apart from the law, because the law does not regenerate or reconcile. Righteous is a gift and apart from the law and the law cannot make you righteous.

    Perfection is required by God, absolute perfection and the law does not even come close to that impossible mark. Only the free gift of Christ's righteousness, perfect righteousness, is given freely to those that believe.

    The law against coveting your neighbors oxen is not even in the ballpark, when it comes to a righteousness. That is holy, holy, holy.
     
  10. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In what way is that a problem with my argument?
     
  11. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    Yes yes and yes, but what does Romans 3:31 mean. That was the question no one seemed able to answer. I give the whole lot of you an F :doh:
     
  12. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    Isaac didn`t observe the law of Moses which is kinda obvious as well as Biblical.
     
  13. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Hello, both law and faith are about Gods Righteousness ( law is righteousness by Our own works given to the Jews & Faith is Righteousness By Gods works given to His children)...
    So Faith is what Gods Righteousness is really shown from those who follow it...read Romans 3:21-31 to know what Paul is illustrated there between law (works) and Faith...
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  14. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    There are many examples of God's laws being in place throughout Gentiles prior to Sinai. For example, in Genesis 4:7, God told Cain that sin was crouching at the door and that he must master it, which implies that he already knew what sin is and that he must have been instructed in that regard. Furthermore, Cain must have been instructed in regard to making offerings, it was a sin for him to hate his brother, and he was treated not as someone who was found guilty of murder, but as someone who was guilty of committing accidental manslaughter in accordance with Deuteronomy 19.

    In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and in Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so Noah was taught how to do what is righteous by grace, which he obeyed through faith. In Genesis 7:2, Noah was given instructions about what to do with clean and unclean animals without being told how to tell the difference, and in 8:20, he knew to offer a clean animal, so again he must have been given prior instructions in that regard.

    In Genesis 26:5, Abraham heard God's voice, kept His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. While it doesn't go into details about the exact content of these instructions, any two sets of instructions for how to act in accordance with God's nature are going to be the same in type and vary only in the degree of thoroughness. So I don't see good grounds to think that Isaac didn't observed laws that were given to Moses.
     
  15. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through our works, but rather their testify that it comes through faith in Christ for all who believe, so this has always been the one and only means to become righteous. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith in the same means as everyone else. God had no need to provide an alternative and unattainable means of becoming righteous through obeying His law when a perfectly good means was already in place, so it was never given for that purpose.

    In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law, so obedience to it has always been about putting our faith in Christ. What we believe is expressed though our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works is what faith looks like. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to obey the law through faith is to put our faith in the Lawgiver. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works, while in he said in 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith.
     
  16. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    I already told you, the law grants the knowledge of sin. The law is established in it's primary purpose and that of proclaiming the one who could obey it.

    The law is a messianic prophecy.

    The law announces that the heavenly, great high priest will arrive soon.

    The sacrifices in the law foretell only of the coming of the perfect sacrifice for our sin.

    The law describes the temple but true temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.

    We establish the law because the law intimately describes in point form, that is, all 613 points. Who exactly would be able to fulfill every line of the law. The law was there only for Jesus to obey. We cannot obey the law and that was never it's real purpose.

    Humanity is condemned by the law, you sin and you die. No one was saved by grace under the law. If you were caught in transgression of the law you were executed. No forgiveness or a second chance in the law.

    The law describes our sinful condition well enough, so that we throw ourselves at the mercy of God. As King David said, blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account. The law is foreboding and condemns.

    Never read the law as it is written, otherwise you will fail to understand the law. When God wrote about not muzzling the oxen while it's threshing the wheat. Is God talking about oxen or is God talking about, not muzzling those in labor for Jesus?

    When God is talking about offering an unblemished lamb during the Passover. Is God talking about a lamb or is God really talking about the lamb of God.

    Is it Mt Sinai or is it Mt Zion?

    Hebrews 12:22
    But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels.

    The entire Old Testament is prophetic and fulfilled by His Majesty.
     
  17. pasifika

    pasifika Well-Known Member

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    Read Romans 3:27..tells you the requirements of the law that requires works and the law that requires Faith...the law that requires works were given only to the Jews..verse 29 Paul mentioned whether is God the God of Jews Only...verse 30 Paul states that God is Not only for Jews but also for Gentiles therefore Faith is what Justified both groups Not by law (law of works given to Jews Only at Sinai) but by Faith that comes from the gospel of Jesus that was preached to Adam and Eve at the garden...
    So, Faith is what uphold the law ( For Righteousness) Instead of works ..
    Covenant made in Sinai is about mans works..Exodus 19
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
  18. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith upholds God's law, so the law that requires faith that was given to the Jews, which Paul directly contrasted with works of the law. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law. Every example of someone living by faith in the Bible is also an example of someone living in obedience to God's will, such as with the examples of faith listed in Hebrews 11, whereas disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith, such as in Numbers 5:6. If our obedience to God's law were for God's good, then it would have been about trying to earn our righteousness through our works, however, it was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so our obedience is instead about putting our faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live, which is again why Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law. Only those who have faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live will obey His law and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, but did not say that we earn our justification by obeying God's law. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter into eternal life, then obey the commandments, so Jesus was not speaking about earning eternal life, but rather our obedience to God's commandments are an expression of the same faith that leads to eternal life. Likewise, in John 6:40, those who look on the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, so that combined with Matthew 19:17 means that obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to believe in Jesus.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2020
  19. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Obedience to the commandments of Jesus that is.

    1 John 3:23-24
    This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

    Unless of course, you believe that not coveting that oxen will save you from damnation?
     
  20. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Do you believe that Jesus is least in the Kingdom according to his own words? Do you believe that Jesus hypocritically preached something other than what he practiced?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2020
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