throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,836
794
✟516,876.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
4,000 years? What do you mean?
The promise of the Messiah is given in Genesis 3:15...
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.’
(Of course context is God speaking to the serpent/Satan)

About 4000 years of recorded history later the Bible records Christ's birth.
 
Upvote 0

summerville

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2020
1,190
437
77
Atlanta
✟11,428.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
The promise of the Messiah is given in Genesis 3:15...
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.’
(Of course context is God speaking to the serpent/Satan)

About 4000 years of recorded history later the Bible records Christ's birth.

"His heel" referencing her offspring... Are you taught that Genesis is literal?
 
Upvote 0

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,836
794
✟516,876.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"His heel" referencing her offspring... Are you taught that Genesis is literal?
"His" there is referring to Jesus. He was to sustain an injury by Satan which occurs during His final act of redemption (the cross). Satan was defeated and so the phrase "crush his head".
Yes, Genesis is a real account and Romans confirms it; it is in both the OT and NT and is treated as a serious account in both Testaments of the Bible despite the antiquity of Genesis.
This was not your original issue with my post however, rather you questioned the 4,000 years from the promised Messiah to His birth. Genesis to Matthew.
 
Upvote 0

summerville

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2020
1,190
437
77
Atlanta
✟11,428.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
"His" there is referring to Jesus. He was to sustain an injury by Satan which occurs during His final act of redemption (the cross). Satan was defeated and so the phrase "crush his head".
Yes, Genesis is a real account and Romans confirms it; it is in both the OT and NT and is treated as a serious account in both Testaments of the Bible despite the antiquity of Genesis.
This was not your original issue with my post however, rather you questioned the 4,000 years from the promised Messiah to His birth. Genesis to Matthew.

Every culture and religion has creation myths also known as foundational myths. I wouldn't take them literally. Genesis is adapted from an earlier story from Sumer.
 
Upvote 0

summerville

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2020
1,190
437
77
Atlanta
✟11,428.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
"His" there is referring to Jesus. He was to sustain an injury by Satan which occurs during His final act of redemption (the cross). Satan was defeated and so the phrase "crush his head".
Yes, Genesis is a real account and Romans confirms it; it is in both the OT and NT and is treated as a serious account in both Testaments of the Bible despite the antiquity of Genesis.
This was not your original issue with my post however, rather you questioned the 4,000 years from the promised Messiah to His birth. Genesis to Matthew.

Every culture and religion has creation myths also known as foundational myths. I wouldn't take them literally. Genesis is adapted from an earlier story from Sumer.
 
Upvote 0

Erik Nelson

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 6, 2017
5,117
1,649
46
Utah
✟347,045.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Paul died before the Temple was destroyed. Paul was fixated on the imminent return of Jesus. Like the apostles he believed Jesus would return soon .. within a generation.
John the Baptist warned the 1st century Jews that "the axe was laid at the foot of the[ir] tree"

The "Apocalypse" was coming to them = 70 AD

But after Armageddon (fall of Babylon), significant time passes (10 horns) until the Christ conquers (fall of the Beast) = 4th century AD conversion of pagan empire to Christianity

then a thousand years later, the Millennium ends = 1453 AD fall of Constantinople

since then it's been the "little time of Gog & Magog"

It terms of major events (Armageddon vs. Babylon = 70 AD fall of Jerusalem, Christ conquering Beast = 4th century AD conversion of pagan empire, Millennium = Byzantine empire, unchaining of Satan = 15th century AD fall of Constantinople and slide into modern secularism et al) Revelation is 4-for-4...

hence the wise would assume it will end up 5-for-5 and "fire from heaven" will scorch the earth sometime Biblically soon

the escalating Wrath of Judgement crescendos from one city to one empire to one whole planet...

over the course of >2000 years...

the series of events cannot be telescoped together (not in human time scales, anyway)


The promise of the Messiah is given in Genesis 3:15...
And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.’
(Of course context is God speaking to the serpent/Satan)

About 4000 years of recorded history later the Bible records Christ's birth.

"His" there is referring to Jesus. He was to sustain an injury by Satan which occurs during His final act of redemption (the cross). Satan was defeated and so the phrase "crush his head".
Yes, Genesis is a real account and Romans confirms it; it is in both the OT and NT and is treated as a serious account in both Testaments of the Bible despite the antiquity of Genesis.
This was not your original issue with my post however, rather you questioned the 4,000 years from the promised Messiah to His birth. Genesis to Matthew.
The Greek LXX Septuagint says 5500 years

The NT overwhelmingly favors the LXX readings over and against the Masoretic ones

The Biblical "Sabbath Day" of the 7th Millennium from Eden was 500-1500 AD = Byzantine empire

It's been all "Gog & Magog" since, until "fire from heaven" (the only remaining unfulfilled prophesy)

that's just the way it's gonna be -- w.a.t.c.h.
 
Upvote 0

summerville

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2020
1,190
437
77
Atlanta
✟11,428.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
John the Baptist warned the 1st century Jews that "the axe was laid at the foot of the[ir] tree"

The "Apocalypse" was coming to them = 70 AD

But after Armageddon (fall of Babylon), significant time passes (10 horns) until the Christ conquers (fall of the Beast) = 4th century AD conversion of pagan empire to Christianity

then a thousand years later, the Millennium ends = 1453 AD fall of Constantinople

since then it's been the "little time of Gog & Magog"

It terms of major events (Armageddon vs. Babylon = 70 AD fall of Jerusalem, Christ conquering Beast = 4th century AD conversion of pagan empire, Millennium = Byzantine empire, unchaining of Satan = 15th century AD fall of Constantinople and slide into modern secularism et al) Revelation is 4-for-4...

hence the wise would assume it will end up 5-for-5 and "fire from heaven" will scorch the earth sometime Biblically soon

the escalating Wrath of Judgement crescendos from one city to one empire to one whole planet...

over the course of >2000 years...

the series of events cannot be telescoped together (not in human time scales, anyway)





The Greek LXX Septuagint says 5500 years

The NT overwhelmingly favors the LXX readings over and against the Masoretic ones

The Biblical "Sabbath Day" of the 7th Millennium from Eden was 500-1500 AD = Byzantine empire

It's been all "Gog & Magog" since, until "fire from heaven" (the only remaining unfulfilled prophesy)

that's just the way it's gonna be -- w.a.t.c.h.

I always thought that Gog and Magog was a reference to the Scythians of southern Russia AKA the Stans.

Around 624 B.C. the Scythians invaded the south and occupied Asia Minor, Syria, Media, Palestine and much of Assyria. They conquered as far south as Egypt, but spared that nation when the Egyptians offered them tribute money.
 
Upvote 0

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,836
794
✟516,876.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
John the Baptist warned the 1st century Jews that "the axe was laid at the foot of the[ir] tree"

The "Apocalypse" was coming to them = 70 AD

But after Armageddon (fall of Babylon), significant time passes (10 horns) until the Christ conquers (fall of the Beast) = 4th century AD conversion of pagan empire to Christianity

then a thousand years later, the Millennium ends = 1453 AD fall of Constantinople

since then it's been the "little time of Gog & Magog"

It terms of major events (Armageddon vs. Babylon = 70 AD fall of Jerusalem, Christ conquering Beast = 4th century AD conversion of pagan empire, Millennium = Byzantine empire, unchaining of Satan = 15th century AD fall of Constantinople and slide into modern secularism et al) Revelation is 4-for-4...

hence the wise would assume it will end up 5-for-5 and "fire from heaven" will scorch the earth sometime Biblically soon

the escalating Wrath of Judgement crescendos from one city to one empire to one whole planet...

over the course of >2000 years...

the series of events cannot be telescoped together (not in human time scales, anyway)





The Greek LXX Septuagint says 5500 years

The NT overwhelmingly favors the LXX readings over and against the Masoretic ones

The Biblical "Sabbath Day" of the 7th Millennium from Eden was 500-1500 AD = Byzantine empire

It's been all "Gog & Magog" since, until "fire from heaven" (the only remaining unfulfilled prophesy)

that's just the way it's gonna be -- w.a.t.c.h.
You may chose either age for this issue...the original issue if you recall was that if the promise of a Messiah (given to Adam and Eve) and fulfilled that many years later then we should not suppose Christ late in His Return or Second Coming.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Erik Nelson
Upvote 0

summerville

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2020
1,190
437
77
Atlanta
✟11,428.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
You may chose either age for this issue...the original issue if you recall was that if the promise of a Messiah (given to Adam and Eve) and fulfilled that many years later then we should not suppose Christ late in His Return or Second Coming.

Paul and the Apostles were absolutely convinced Jesus would be returning soon … within a generation of the Crucifixion.. How did they get it so wrong while Hal Lindsey got it right?
 
Upvote 0

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,836
794
✟516,876.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You may chose either age for this issue...the original issue if you recall was that if the promise of a Messiah (given to Adam and Eve) and fulfilled that many years later then we should not suppose Christ late in His Return or Second Coming.
We must always W-A-T-C-H! That's what was always commanded even at the time the signs of the end were given to the disciples. The Book of Revelation reinforces that axiom. See the opening to Revelation, blessed are they who read these words and understand it and keep it. Revelation is a review of the Gospel using the Bible.
Daniel says those who know their God will firmly resist him (Satan). Many of the wise will stumble so they can be refined and purified at that time. That time is the end time...probably when Satan is loosed to go out to deceive the nations.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Erik Nelson
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,836
794
✟516,876.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Paul and the Apostles were absolutely convinced Jesus would be returning soon … within a generation of the Crucifixion.. How did they get it so wrong while Hal Lindsey got it right?
They were dutiful and watching and the signs have been visible from Christ's death. Peter does not say the time is NOW or short instead he preaches against the scoffers (II Peter 3)
Some point to where Paul says the time is short (I Corinthians 7:29). That does not say time is short until the Judgement Day there. He could be referring to their impending death by persecution. But we all should live in watchfulness as Jesus did command.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Erik Nelson
Upvote 0

summerville

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2020
1,190
437
77
Atlanta
✟11,428.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
We must always W-A-T-C-H! That's what was always commanded even at the time the signs of the end were given to the disciples. The Book of Revelation reinforces that axiom. See the opening to Revelation, blessed are they who read these words and understand it and keep it. Revelation is a review of the Gospel using the Bible.
Daniel says those who know their God will firmly resist him (Satan). Many of the wise will stumble so they can be refined and purified at that time. That time is the end time...probably when Satan is loosed to go out to deceive the nations.

Daniel 11:32 is about Antiochus IV. He was a king of the North.
 
Upvote 0

summerville

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2020
1,190
437
77
Atlanta
✟11,428.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
They were dutiful and watching and the signs have been visible from Christ's death. Peter does not say the time is NOW or short instead he preaches against the scoffers (II Peter 3)
Some point to where Paul says the time is short (I Corinthians 7:29). That does not say time is short until the Judgement Day there. He could be referring to their impending death by persecution. But we all should live in watchfulness as Jesus did command.

Why do you suppose Jesus told them to flee to the mountains?

The fourth-century church fathers Eusebius and Epiphanius of Salamis cite a tradition that before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 the Jerusalem Christians had been miraculously warned to flee to Pella in the region of the Decapolis across the Jordan River.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Erik Nelson
Upvote 0

Copperhead

Newbie
Supporter
Feb 22, 2013
1,434
442
✟208,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Paul and the Apostles were absolutely convinced Jesus would be returning soon … within a generation of the Crucifixion.. How did they get it so wrong while Hal Lindsey got it right?

There is a unique difference between coming for the redeemed as opposed to coming to rule over the earth. Sure, the early church and for that matter, many believers throughout history have felt the Lord could come at any time to gather the redeemed. He does not come to the earth but we are gathered from the earth unto Him. And that is not the same as when He comes ** with ** the redeemed to physically set foot on the earth and establish the kingdom here on earth.

And along with that, Yeshua (Jesus) Himself said in both Hosea 5:14-15 and Matthew 23:37-39 that He would return to His place because of Jacob/Israel's rejection and He would not return to the earth until they acknowledge that offense, turn to Him, and petition for His return. Something that has nothing to do with the redeemed bride of Messiah.

And if we follow after what Yeshua said in Hosea, the time frame is given... 2000 years between the time He returned to His place to His coming to the earth again.

Hosea 6:1-2 (NKJV) Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,

That we may live in His sight.

And applying Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 following the Torah requirement of testimony of at least two witnesses as applied by the Bereans in Acts 17...

2 Peter 3:8 (NKJV) But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalms 90:4 (NKJV) For a thousand years in Your sight
Are like yesterday when it is past,
And like a watch in the night.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

summerville

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2020
1,190
437
77
Atlanta
✟11,428.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
There is a unique difference between coming for the redeemed as opposed to coming to rule over the earth. Sure, the early church and for that matter, many believers throughout history have felt the Lord could come at any time to gather the redeemed. He does not come to the earth but we are gathered unto Him. And that is not the same as when He comes ** with ** the redeemed to physically set foot on the earth and establish the kingdom here on earth.

And along with that, Yeshua (Jesus) Himself said in both Hosea 5:14-15 and Matthew 23:37-39 that He would return to His place because of Jacob/Israel's rejection and He would not return to the earth until they acknowledge that offense, turn to Him, and petition for His return. Something that has nothing to do with the redeemed bride of Messiah.

Hosea 5:14 is about Ephraim (Israel)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Copperhead

Newbie
Supporter
Feb 22, 2013
1,434
442
✟208,325.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Hosea 5:14 is about Ephraim (Israel)

Read all of it....

Hosea 5:14-15 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they
[both houses] acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me."

That is ALL Jacob/Israel. Both houses. They were present in the Land when they rejected Yeshua.

Eliminates the goofy ideas floating around that the Church is now Israel (Ephraim). The Church did not reject Yeshua so as to cause Him to return to His place.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,647
2,189
indiana
✟298,136.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The new earth appears when Jesus comes, at the end of the millennium.

Jesus doesn't come at the end of the millennium.

revelation 20:7-8 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

Jesus comes after satan's little season

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.


Here is Christ returning enthroned, whereupon the general judgment occurs. This lines up with multiple Scripture of a general judgment at the second coming. What is very significant is that there are 2 different Greek words in view. The world (kosmos) was destroyed in Noah's day but the earth () was not. Big different! The kosmos can refer to the physical earth but can also refer to the people or orderly arrangement on earth. Anyway, there is a major difference between the world being enveloped by water and being purged by fire. Also, when the heavens and earth are coupled together (as they are in 2 Peter 3) they always mean exactly that. Significantly, the word is employed to describe the physical globe. Anyway:

· Water may clean a metal but fire purifies and cleanses it.
· Water may drown someone (as in the flood) but fire burns up and melts.

2 Peter 2:4-9:
“For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world (kosmos), but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world (kosmos) of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked. (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.”

This passage highlights the great faithfulness of God toward His elect and the justice of God against the rebellious. It is a solemn reminder to mankind of the awful consequences of rejecting God or His gracious plan of salvation. Peter points us back in time to God’s treatment of the rebellious angels at the beginning and his dealing with Noah’s world and also the iniquitous cities of Sodom and Gomorrha in Lot’s day. The two mentions of “world” in v 5 (referring to Noah’s day) are not talking about the physical earth (gē) but rather “the old world … the world of the ungodly” – talking about the wicked. The Greek word for “world” here is kosmos describing the human world that rejected God in Noah’s day.

Most commentators accept that Peter is speaking of actual people in in v 5 and not the physical world.

The whole context and wording here is clear and unequivocal. It is showing us God’s ultimate grace when dealing with those who humble themselves and His ultimate justice when dealing with rebellious angels and humans. We see that in Peter’s conclusion of his thought in v 9: “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.”

2 Peter 3:3-7 similarly says:
“there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (ouranos) were of old (or “a long time”), and the earth () standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world (kosmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens (ouranos) and the earth (), which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

Again: the writer distinguishes between the ungodly world (kosmos) and the physical earth (). Peter deliberately uses the two different Greek words to differentiate between them. This is in context with everything he had previously said in 2 Peter 2.

2 Peter 3:8-13 couldn't be clearer: “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens (ouranos) shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements (stoicheion) shall melt with fervent heat, the earth (gē) also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens (ouranos) being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements (stoicheion) shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (ouranos) and a new earth (gē), wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed destroyed by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as Premils insists. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

The new heavens and new earth are such a stark contrast to this current present evil age that is blighted by all the result of the fall, including the existence of Satan. The new arrangement is especially noted for “righteousness.”

Scripture tells us that we are coming back to earth, but it will be a regenerated earth (Malachi 4:1-3, I Corinthians 15:50, 2 Peter 3). It will be an earth totally purged of all deterioration. The new heavens and a new earth (in whatever form God chooses) will appear at the Coming of Christ. It will involve (at very least) the burning up of the crust of our current earth. This current earth will be totally changed/regenerated – making it a new curse-free environment. The earth will be restored to its previous pristine condition. These passages would sway me towards the position that this earth will remain forever – only in a new condition.

Again peter compares and contrasts 2 sets of heaven and earth. 1 Before the flood and 1 after the flood. 1 where the kosmos is destroyed by the flood which was "existing (imperfect tense) long ago", 1 where the ungodly are destroyed by fire which now exists (present tense).

2 Peter 3:5-7 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.


Peter's use of language is consistent with OT parabolic language of judgment, several examples include

Judgment againts Edom = literal, the heavens rotting = metaphorical

Isaiah 34:3-5 Their slain shall be cast out,and the stench of their corpses shall rise;
the mountains shall flow with their blood. All the host of heaven shall rot away,
and the skies roll up like a scroll.All their host shall fall,as leaves fall from the vine,
like leaves falling from the fig tree. For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
behold, it descends for judgment upon Edom,upon the people I have devoted to destruction.

Judgment againts Babylon = literal, heavens trembling, earth shaken out of its place = metaphorical
Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place,
at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger.

Judgment against Ninevah = literal, hills melting, mountains quaking, earth heaving = metaphorical
Nahum 1:1-5 an oracle concerning Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum of Elkosh. The LORD is a jealous and avenging God;the LORD is avenging and wrathful;the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty.His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; he dries up all the rivers;Bashan and Carmel wither;the bloom of Lebanon withers. The mountains quake before him; the hills melt;
the earth heaves before him,the world and all who dwell in it.


Every second coming passage I mention is applied to the coming of Titus and AD70.

1. When was/is sin eliminated?
2. When was/is the sinner eliminated?
3. When was/is death eliminated?
4. When was/is corruption eliminated?
5. When was/is Satan eliminated?
6. When was/is marriage eliminated?
7. When was/is perfect righteousness introduced?
8. When was/is peace and perfection finally introduced?
9. When was/is incorruption introduced
10.Are we still living in an "evil age" or not?
11.When does crying stop?
12.When does pain stop?
13.When does sorrow stop?
14.When is the curse lifted?
15.When was/is all rule, authority and power finally put down?

Again you cannot provide and posts of mine where I go into detail about Titus. Interesting.......
 
Upvote 0

sovereigngrace

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2019
8,982
3,447
USA
Visit site
✟200,066.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Jesus doesn't come at the end of the millennium.

revelation 20:7-8 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

Jesus comes after satan's little season

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.




Again peter compares and contrasts 2 sets of heaven and earth. 1 Before the flood and 1 after the flood. 1 where the kosmos is destroyed by the flood which was "existing (imperfect tense) long ago", 1 where the ungodly are destroyed by fire which now exists (present tense).

2 Peter 3:5-7 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.


Peter's use of language is consistent with OT parabolic language of judgment, several examples include

Judgment againts Edom = literal, the heavens rotting = metaphorical

Isaiah 34:3-5 Their slain shall be cast out,and the stench of their corpses shall rise;
the mountains shall flow with their blood. All the host of heaven shall rot away,
and the skies roll up like a scroll.All their host shall fall,as leaves fall from the vine,
like leaves falling from the fig tree. For my sword has drunk its fill in the heavens;
behold, it descends for judgment upon Edom,upon the people I have devoted to destruction.

Judgment againts Babylon = literal, heavens trembling, earth shaken out of its place = metaphorical
Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place,
at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger.

Judgment against Ninevah = literal, hills melting, mountains quaking, earth heaving = metaphorical
Nahum 1:1-5 an oracle concerning Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum of Elkosh. The LORD is a jealous and avenging God;the LORD is avenging and wrathful;the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. The LORD is slow to anger and great in power,
and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty.His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; he dries up all the rivers;Bashan and Carmel wither;the bloom of Lebanon withers. The mountains quake before him; the hills melt;
the earth heaves before him,the world and all who dwell in it.




Again you cannot provide and posts of mine where I go into detail about Titus. Interesting.......

Is there any Scripture that isn’t focused on the coming of Titus in AD70?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Erik Nelson

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Aug 6, 2017
5,117
1,649
46
Utah
✟347,045.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I always thought that Gog and Magog was a reference to the Scythians of southern Russia AKA the Stans.

Around 624 B.C. the Scythians invaded the south and occupied Asia Minor, Syria, Media, Palestine and much of Assyria. They conquered as far south as Egypt, but spared that nation when the Egyptians offered them tribute money.

Well, maybe they prefigure "the" Gog & Magog...

but "the" Gog & Magog (Rev 20:7-9) appear after the Millennium... after the 10 horns... after Armageddon destroys Babylon... after the Crucifixion

So no way could a people prominent in the "BC" era be the direct referent of Rev 20:7-9 >>1000 years after the "AD" era began



Paul and the Apostles were absolutely convinced Jesus would be returning soon … within a generation of the Crucifixion.. How did they get it so wrong while Hal Lindsey got it right?
again, just like John the Baptist warned, their was an "Apocalypse" coming to first century Judea... it arrived in 70 AD...

it wiped out everybody but those who obeyed Jesus' command to flee Jerusalem:
  • Christians who fled to Pella --> modern Christianity
  • Johannan ben Zakkai who fled to Vespasian and acknowledged him his Messiah --> modern Rabbinical Judaism
all other Jewish sects were wiped out of history (Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots)

But the End Times of earth is not one single split-second event...

Revelation is unambiguous that from Armageddon destroying Babylon (70 AD) to "fire from heaven" at the 2C for FJ... much more than 1000 years elapses
 
Upvote 0