Why hasn't Jesus come back yet?

[solid_core]

.

 

[parousia70]

Not so! That is Full Preterism.

Incorrect. Please educate yourself on the differences between full and partial preterism.
Nothing I espouse is a view EXCLUSIVE to full preterism. Nothing.

 

[parousia70]

I didn't say that it was a natural body. I said that it is a physical body. Our new spiritual bodies are physical, just like Christ's was after the resurrection. Thomas was able to put his finger inside the nail prints in Jesus hands John 20:25-29. Jesus was able to have breakfast with the disciples in His resurrected body (Luke 24:42-43).

So are you saying our physical resurrected Bodies will retain any wounds we may have received in death "Just Like Christ's" did? Or do you assert that our Resurrected Bodies be in Superior Physical condition to Christ's Body?

 

[parousia70]

Give me Scripture that tells us what happens at the "Final Consummation"?

As I mentioned, the timing and details of that "future to us" event have not been revealed to men. (Deuteronomy 29:29)

 

[sovereigngrace]

As I mentioned, the timing and details of that "future to us" event have not been revealed to men. (Deuteronomy 29:29)

Please answer the question: Can you give me Scripture that tells us what happens at the "Final Consummation"?

You repeatedly and obsessively locate every single eschatological passage in AD70. Yet, when I ask you to furnish me with Scripture of a literal physical future return of Christ you have nothing. You are silent. This is classic Full Preterism. Also, teh fact you identify yourself as parousia70 is a testimony to where your heart is.

Can you please list all the main differences between your view and Full Preterism? I do not see any.

 

[sovereigngrace]

As I mentioned, the timing and details of that "future to us" event have not been revealed to men. (Deuteronomy 29:29)

Scripture reveals much about the future. Where is your Scripture?

 

[peterlindner]

Strongs. .5610 hṓra – properly, an hour. An hour has 3,600 units or 10x 360. It started in 2,010 plus 3,600=5,610. Samson's bet had to pay up 30 plus 30. The days of old New Years is March 1st. This year March 1st is the 153rd day from Trumpets (Tishri 1). This is after 60 days according to the Watch calendar (Watch in Strongs is Gregorio)...hello Gregorian calendar. Lamb separation of 2,010 to 3rd day of March is 3,600 days. The mystery if figuring out the payment for the one who joins in at the eleventh hour. It doesn't matter what they are paid; the treasure is that they have to come to the hour (3,600 or ten years). When you understand first Samuel 13; you come to understand that it begins with one year plus two more. Then the riddle has 7 more years. It is confirmed with Saul 1,000 plus 2,000 men plus the final 600 or 3,600 total; or the 30,000 plus 6,000 horsemen for 36,000. Many more proofs but this post will get blocked by the Pharisees.

 

[Kilk1]

You're close.
Vs 40-43 says the transfer of the kingdom is completed "when the Lord of the Vineyard Comes" and "destroys those wicked men miserably".
This happened in 66-70 AD, when Jesus, the Chief Cornerstone, Lord of the Vineyard, Came to them in Judgment and was the stone that ground them to powder, removing the kingdom from them forever.

I'm open to that interpretation, though I'm not sure. Is Jesus the Lord of the vineyard or his son?

 

[Erik Nelson]

You're close.
Vs 40-43 says the transfer of the kingdom is completed "when the Lord of the Vineyard Comes" and "destroys those wicked men miserably".
This happened in 66-70 AD, when Jesus, the Chief Cornerstone, Lord of the Vineyard, Came to them in Judgment and was the stone that ground them to powder, removing the kingdom from them forever.

Powerful & pertinent verse!

The Lord of the Vineyard = The Father, who thought surely "they will respect my son" (Matthew 21:37)

70 AD proved that the Son had been seated at the Father's right hand in heaven

Then stop avoiding these simple questions:

1. Is there an individual day in the future when all the dead will rise together from the dead to meet Christ at His glorious climactic return?
2. Do you believe the Bible teaches a literal physical future coming of Christ?

Please acknowledge, that Final Judgement (Rev 20:10) will not include either Jesus Christ or His martyred millennial saints (Rev 20:1-6), all of whom (will) have already been Resurrected, thousand(s) of year(s) prior?

 

[Erik Nelson]

Not so! That is Full Preterism. Paul was not like you, fixated with the coming of Titus and AD70. Paul was teaching about the physical resurrection when Jesus comes at the end.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



There is nothing to rebut here. There is no evidence. This is all typical Preterist opinion, conjecture and speculationalism.

1 Th 4 = Rev 20:9 = Final Judgement

But that global event occurs thousand(s) of years after the defeat of the Beast (continent-sized pagan empire) and Armageddon of Babylon (single city & surroundings)

Please note the crescendo:

1. Armageddon vs. Babylon (Rev 18) = Judgement on one city
2. Defeat of the Beast (Rev 19) = Judgement on one empire
3. Final Judgement (Rev 20:10) = Judgement on one planet

All separate events, not to be "telescoped" together, as Jesus explained in his Olivet Discourse, when His disciples had the same misunderstanding

Please answer the question: Can you give me Scripture that tells us what happens at the "Final Consummation"?

You repeatedly and obsessively locate every single eschatological passage in AD70. Yet, when I ask you to furnish me with Scripture of a literal physical future return of Christ you have nothing. You are silent. This is classic Full Preterism. Also, teh fact you identify yourself as parousia70 is a testimony to where your heart is.

Can you please list all the main differences between your view and Full Preterism? I do not see any.

again, please do not try to "telescope" a sequence of separate (but related) events all into one

a day for YHWH is as a thousand earth-years...

you consider "one event" to be (say) a day-long conference "event" with various speakers in the morning & afternoon

YHWH in heaven considers "one Biblical Event" to be Armageddon in 70 AD, the defeat of the Beast in 312 AD, and the scorching of earth with "fire from heaven" at some unknown but "Biblically imminent" future time

YHWH is "2-for-2", everything prophesied has occurred "on schedule" up to Rev 20:9a

We have no (logically legitimate) reason to doubt Rev 20:9b is "next up" and "soon"

 

[claninja]

I have highlighted your obsession with the coming of Titus and AD70 in nearly every response to you, but your fixation with that causes you to dismiss it. AD70 is all you want to talk about. I see no interest in talking about Christ's sinless life, atoning death, victorious resurrection or His glorious return future glorious return? Why not? That is not what interest you here.

I asked if you could provide any specifics from any of my posts where I went into detail about Titus' coming to destroy Jerusalem. You didn't, and it appears you can't as evidenced by your non-response.

Thayer's lexicon does not support Full Prerterism in any way.

I absolutely agree.

Stop deliberately distorting the meaning of the word gē. We are exclusively talking about references to the physical earth.

'ge' means more than just the whole earth/world/globe. If it didn't than you would be correct that I was distorting its meaning.

Per Strong's:

the earth, soil, land, region, country, inhabitants of a region.

country, ground, land, world.

It is clear that Peter differentiates between the heavens and earth prior to the flood, and the one he was presently living in. He mentions 2 sets of Heaven and earth, 1 before the flood and 1 after the flood.

2 Peter 3:5-7 But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world of that time perished in the flood. And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application) -- country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world.

Full Preterism wants to spiritualize the whole Bible away as if nothing is literal, means anything or is absolute. It is wicked, evil and antichrist.

Since you have been calling me a full preterist this whole time, even though I am not, and I believe the coming of Christ in judgment on Israel in 66-70ad prefigures a future greater coming and judgment, you appear to be calling me an antichrist.

Please be careful with the flaming language, as it is against forum rules.

If you cannot address me in a respectful manner, maybe take a minute to cool down before responding or just ignore me.

 

[lordjeff]

After 2000 years why are we still waiting for the return of the King of Kings?

It was a clear expectation of the early church that Jesus would return soon. Peter even made a special effort to debunk the intellectual pagans and false teachers of his time who suggested that this was a lie and that there would be no return. In 2 Peter 1:16-21 Peter used, as the basis of his refutation of this false accusation, the experience of James, John and Peter of the Transfiguration on the Holy Mountain (where the Messiah is expected to return). Because they had seen the glorified Christ they knew that He would one day return in that same glory as the King of Kings. No one on this earth had a comparable majesty , so only Jesus could be the King we waited for. The martyrs went to their deaths in the various persecutions of the Roman empire under Nero, Domitian and later Trajan and Marcus Aurelius singing the praises of this King and in the expectation that their King, the Returning King Jesus, would soon hold corrupt demonically inspired authorities to account and that the Emperor would get his comeuppance. But 2000 years later we are still waiting. It is the strongest prophecy of the Christian church, it is the overwhelming expectation of the church, ensuring that we live lives in expectation of our final review by the returning King. It is written into our creeds.

"He will return in glory to judge the Living and the Dead and his Kingdom will have no end"

But where is he, what possible reason could there be for keeping his bride waiting so long?

 

[lordjeff]

After 2000 years why are we still waiting for the return of the King of Kings?

It was a clear expectation of the early church that Jesus would return soon. Peter even made a special effort to debunk the intellectual pagans and false teachers of his time who suggested that this was a lie and that there would be no return. In 2 Peter 1:16-21 Peter used, as the basis of his refutation of this false accusation, the experience of James, John and Peter of the Transfiguration on the Holy Mountain (where the Messiah is expected to return). Because they had seen the glorified Christ they knew that He would one day return in that same glory as the King of Kings. No one on this earth had a comparable majesty , so only Jesus could be the King we waited for. The martyrs went to their deaths in the various persecutions of the Roman empire under Nero, Domitian and later Trajan and Marcus Aurelius singing the praises of this King and in the expectation that their King, the Returning King Jesus, would soon hold corrupt demonically inspired authorities to account and that the Emperor would get his comeuppance. But 2000 years later we are still waiting. It is the strongest prophecy of the Christian church, it is the overwhelming expectation of the church, ensuring that we live lives in expectation of our final review by the returning King. It is written into our creeds.

"He will return in glory to judge the Living and the Dead and his Kingdom will have no end"

But where is he, what possible reason could there be for keeping his bride waiting so long?

I wonder the same thing every day. How much more worse can civilization get? Thus I have conjured that the 2nd coming is not a physical one but rather a spiritual one. The fact is human beings live in natural tension. I don't see any one of us in the world having some kind of epiphany & we will sing kumbaya. But this I know our time on earth is measured & at some point we will all flee home.

 

[summerville]

"Millions of Americans believe that Christ will not come again until Israel wipes out its competitors and there is widespread war in the Middle East. Some of these folks want to start a huge fire of war and death and destruction, so that Jesus comes quickly."

Millions of Evangelical Christians Want to Start World War III … to Speed Up the Second Coming - Global Research

That's the Scofield influence. Sad.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I wonder the same thing every day. How much more worse can civilization get? Thus I have conjured that the 2nd coming is not a physical one but rather a spiritual one. The fact is human beings live in natural tension. I don't see any one of us in the world having some kind of epiphany & we will sing kumbaya. But this I know our time on earth is measured & at some point we will all flee home.

My advise is to reread the Scriptures to see that you are wrong in your assessment of the Second Coming.
See II Timothy 3 on the evilness of the days in the end times.Read Luke 18:8 to find that things will be so terrible wrong on the earth that Jesus leaves us wondering if there will even be faith left in anyone on the earth.II Peter 3 records the that scoffers will come scoffing doubting God's Word about His Coming.
It was 4000 years, Biblically, from the time of the promise of a Messiah to save people from their sins until that promise was fulfilled in Christ's birth. Abraham's wait for his promised son was long and it filled him with doubt at times...review his life and see if you are not acting out Abraham like doubt.
Stay in the Word...don't make up your own solution or remedy for answer to a long wait.

 

[summerville]

Not so! That is Full Preterism. Paul was not like you, fixated with the coming of Titus and AD70. Paul was teaching about the physical resurrection when Jesus comes at the end.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



There is nothing to rebut here. There is no evidence. This is all typical Preterist opinion, conjecture and speculationalism.

Paul died before the Temple was destroyed. Paul was fixated on the imminent return of Jesus. Like the apostles he believed Jesus would return soon .. within a generation.

 

[summerville]

My advise is to reread the Scriptures to see that you are wrong in your assessment of the Second Coming.
See II Timothy 3 on the evilness of the days in the end times.Read Luke 18:8 to find that things will be so terrible wrong on the earth that Jesus leaves us wondering if there will even be faith left in anyone on the earth.II Peter 3 records the that scoffers will come scoffing doubting God's Word about His Coming.

It was 4000 years, Biblically, from the time of the promise of a Messiah to save people from their sins until that promise was fulfilled in Christ's birth. Abraham's wait for his promised son was long and it filled him with doubt at times...review his life and see if you are not acting out Abraham like doubt.
Stay in the Word...don't make up your own solution or remedy for answer to a long wait.

4,000 years? What do you mean?

 

[sovereigngrace]

I asked if you could provide any specifics from any of my posts where I went into detail about Titus' coming to destroy Jerusalem. You didn't, and it appears you can't as evidenced by your non-response.



I absolutely agree.



'ge' means more than just the whole earth/world/globe. If it didn't than you would be correct that I was distorting its meaning.

Per Strong's:

the earth, soil, land, region, country, inhabitants of a region.

country, ground, land, world.

It is clear that Peter differentiates between the heavens and earth prior to the flood, and the one he was presently living in. He mentions 2 sets of Heaven and earth, 1 before the flood and 1 after the flood.

Not so! The first/old earth is this current cursed corrupt earth. The new earth appears when Jesus comes, at the end of the millennium. While the coming of Titus (and AD70) is the pivotal moment in history for you, and the only coming you seem to want to talk about, Scripture elevates the First and Second Advents.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away (or departed); and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

Here is Christ returning enthroned, whereupon the general judgment occurs. This lines up with multiple Scripture of a general judgment at the second coming. What is very significant is that there are 2 different Greek words in view. The world (kosmos) was destroyed in Noah's day but the earth (gē) was not. Big different! The kosmos can refer to the physical earth but can also refer to the people or orderly arrangement on earth. Anyway, there is a major difference between the world being enveloped by water and being purged by fire. Also, when the heavens and earth are coupled together (as they are in 2 Peter 3) they always mean exactly that. Significantly, the word gē is employed to describe the physical globe. Anyway:

· Water may clean a metal but fire purifies and cleanses it.
· Water may drown someone (as in the flood) but fire burns up and melts.

2 Peter 2:4-9: “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world (kosmos), but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world (kosmos) of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked. (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.”

This passage highlights the great faithfulness of God toward His elect and the justice of God against the rebellious. It is a solemn reminder to mankind of the awful consequences of rejecting God or His gracious plan of salvation. Peter points us back in time to God’s treatment of the rebellious angels at the beginning and his dealing with Noah’s world and also the iniquitous cities of Sodom and Gomorrha in Lot’s day. The two mentions of “world” in v 5 (referring to Noah’s day) are not talking about the physical earth (gē) but rather “the old world … the world of the ungodly” – talking about the wicked. The Greek word for “world” here is kosmos describing the human world that rejected God in Noah’s day.

Most commentators accept that Peter is speaking of actual people in in v 5 and not the physical world.

The whole context and wording here is clear and unequivocal. It is showing us God’s ultimate grace when dealing with those who humble themselves and His ultimate justice when dealing with rebellious angels and humans. We see that in Peter’s conclusion of his thought in v 9: “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.”

2 Peter 3:3-7 similarly says: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (ouranos) were of old (or “a long time”), and the earth (gē) standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world (kosmos) that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens (ouranos) and the earth (gē), which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

Again: the writer distinguishes between the ungodly world (kosmos) and the physical earth (gē). Peter deliberately uses the two different Greek words to differentiate between them. This is in context with everything he had previously said in 2 Peter 2.

2 Peter 3:8-13 couldn't be clearer: “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens (ouranos) shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements (stoicheion) shall melt with fervent heat, the earth (gē) also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens (ouranos) being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements (stoicheion) shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (ouranos) and a new earth (gē), wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed destroyed by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as Premils insists. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

The new heavens and new earth are such a stark contrast to this current present evil age that is blighted by all the result of the fall, including the existence of Satan. The new arrangement is especially noted for “righteousness.”

Scripture tells us that we are coming back to earth, but it will be a regenerated earth (Malachi 4:1-3, I Corinthians 15:50, 2 Peter 3). It will be an earth totally purged of all deterioration. The new heavens and a new earth (in whatever form God chooses) will appear at the Coming of Christ. It will involve (at very least) the burning up of the crust of our current earth. This current earth will be totally changed/regenerated – making it a new curse-free environment. The earth will be restored to its previous pristine condition. These passages would sway me towards the position that this earth will remain forever – only in a new condition.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I asked if you could provide any specifics from any of my posts where I went into detail about Titus' coming to destroy Jerusalem. You didn't, and it appears you can't as evidenced by your non-response.



I absolutely agree.



'ge' means more than just the whole earth/world/globe. If it didn't than you would be correct that I was distorting its meaning.

Per Strong's:

the earth, soil, land, region, country, inhabitants of a region.

country, ground, land, world.

It is clear that Peter differentiates between the heavens and earth prior to the flood, and the one he was presently living in. He mentions 2 sets of Heaven and earth, 1 before the flood and 1 after the flood.

2 Peter 3:5-7 But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world of that time perished in the flood. And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application) -- country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world.



Since you have been calling me a full preterist this whole time, even though I am not, and I believe the coming of Christ in judgment on Israel in 66-70ad prefigures a future greater coming and judgment, you appear to be calling me an antichrist.

Please be careful with the flaming language, as it is against forum rules.

If you cannot address me in a respectful manner, maybe take a minute to cool down before responding or just ignore me.

Every second coming passage I mention is applied to the coming of Titus and AD70.

1. When was/is sin eliminated?
2. When was/is the sinner eliminated?
3. When was/is death eliminated?
4. When was/is corruption eliminated?
5. When was/is Satan eliminated?
6. When was/is marriage eliminated?
7. When was/is perfect righteousness introduced?
8. When was/is peace and perfection finally introduced?
9. When was/is incorruption introduced
10.Are we still living in an "evil age" or not?
11.When does crying stop?
12.When does pain stop?
13.When does sorrow stop?
14.When is the curse lifted?
15.When was/is all rule, authority and power finally put down?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

4,000 years? What do you mean?

Just as I stated...literally