Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism? Starts with Definitions

[klutedavid]

Don’t know where we get this. But let’s ask the question in a more friendly way:

Can a Christian know if he or she is truly saved?

Ultimately a person cannot know if they are saved.

 

[fhansen]

1. BTW two points to remember: - Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that the supernatural drawing of God is more than sufficient to enable all the choice that depravity disables. That is not "the difference" between the two views.

I think another related and relevant difference may lie in whether not depravity necessarily implies a completely compromised or dead will. IOW, while man cannot approach or find God on his own, and cannot possibly save himself, can he nonetheless still say yes or no to salvation when offered? Can he resist grace?

 

[BobRyan]

I think another related and relevant difference may lie in whether not depravity necessarily implies a completely compromised or dead will. IOW, while man cannot approach or find God on his own, and cannot possibly save himself, can he nonetheless still say yes or no to salvation when offered? Can he resist grace?

3 Point Calvinists like Swindoll would say that man can resist but 4 and 5 point calvinists say that he cannot

 

[Charlie24]

This is impossible. Trillions never heard the gospel.

I agree, and God will judge them according to their deeds. The conscience is the bearer that God exists, how they conducted themselves under this knowledge will determine their fate.

This is the same way the folks in Genesis were judged who had no Law and never heard from God.

Paul said that no man has an excuse when he stands before God.

 

[Dave L]

I agree, and God will judge them according to their deeds. The conscience is the bearer that God exists, how they conducted themselves under this knowledge will determine their fate.

This is the same way the folks in Genesis were judged who had no Law and never heard from God.

Paul said that no man has an excuse when he stands before God.

There is nothing good to judge. Only those whom he saves will survive his wrath.

 

[Dave L]

Ultimately a person cannot know if they are saved.

I know I'm saved and bet all that I had on it.

 

[Dave L]

What does that have to do with accepting charity for selfish reasons, an idol does not give you anything.

People are blind to God and only think an idol they think is him is making them an offer.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, the Lord calls unto Himself those who repent and believe.

Where does even repentance come from?

Acts 11: NASB

17“Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”18When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”

2 Timothy 2: NASB

24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

But how does He call them? Does He call them through the gospel being preached, directed to everyone, and chooses those who believe?

Many are called (the Gospel) few are chosen (born again) ref. John 3:8

Or does He already have a selected few He chooses to hear the gospel?

The Gospel is to be proclaimed to all nations beginning in Jerusalem (Luke 24:47)

Do we all have the ears to hear and the eyes that see? (Matthew 13:10-23)

What does the NT say about how God chooses? The evidence is according to His will and purpose. For example:

Ephesians 1: NASB
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


I believe when examine the God of Holy Scriptures for how He revealed Himself to us, we need to in all reverence “Let God be God” as discussed here:

“Let God be God”

If we don’t then we could be creating a God that appeases our human sensibilities.

 

[redleghunter]

If you were to follow Calvinism completely then it portrays God as a sadistic monster who pre ordained everything in existence which would include the creation of evil.

Well Reformed theology does not teach that.

 

[Charlie24]

There is nothing good to judge. Only those whom he saves will survive his wrath.

If the man who never heard the gospel, who never had a law to follow from God, will heed to his conscience that there is a God who will hold accountable, and he refrains from evil the best he can. That man will be acceptable with God, given the knowledge he possessed.

 

[Rawtheran]

Well Reformed theology does not teach that.

I know, I was mainly talking about Hyper Calvinism

 

[redleghunter]

Ultimately a person cannot know if they are saved.

Really?

Romans 8: NASB

14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

 

[redleghunter]

I know, I was mainly talking about Hyper Calvinism

Yes hyper-Calvinism will lead to a cold God devoid of love.

I think many Christians, all of us frankly at some point, fail to “Let God be God.”

“Let God be God”

If we can’t accept God for Who He revealed Himself to be according to Scriptures we already step out in error trying to figure other things out.

 

[Dave L]

If the man who never heard the gospel, who never had a law to follow from God, will heed to his conscience that there is a God who will hold accountable, and he refrains from evil the best he can. That man will be acceptable with God, given the knowledge he possessed.

Not a chance. You must be born again.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree, and God will judge them according to their deeds. The conscience is the bearer that God exists, how they conducted themselves under this knowledge will determine their fate.

This is the same way the folks in Genesis were judged who had no Law and never heard from God.

Paul said that no man has an excuse when he stands before God.

So that's Rom 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Which is the New Covenant -- born again experience ... done by the Holy Spirit even in that case of that gentile above who had no access to scripture at all.

You must be born again.

I think we can all agree on that

There is nothing good to judge.

Is that "the words" you find in the Romans 2 text as quoted above?

and in 2 Cor 5:10?
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

 

[Charlie24]

Not a chance. You must be born again.

We are talking about people who live their whole lives and never hear the gospel.

And the people who lived before the Law in the OT who also only had a conscience to make them aware of God.

Surely Dave, you can understand this.

 

[redleghunter]

Of course. At least one who doesn't believe in Calvinist false theology of effervescent Grace.

Never heard of Effervescent Grace. That’s a hoot.

 

[renniks]

Ultimately a person cannot know if they are saved.

Yes you can.
"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well."

 

[renniks]

Never heard of Effervescent Grace. That’s a hoot.

Evanescent Grace.
Don't know your fearless leader Calvin so well then, if you haven't heard of it.
John Calvin explains: “Experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence, it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption .... there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith .... Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their mind to this extent .... there is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.” (3.2.11, Institutes,

Yeah it sounds like nonsense to me too.

 

[redleghunter]

Evanescent Grace.
Don't know your fearless leader Calvin so well then, if you haven't heard of it.
John Calvin explains: “Experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence, it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption .... there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith .... Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their mind to this extent .... there is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.” (3.2.11, Institutes,

Yeah it sounds like nonsense to me too.

Note you used Effervescent grace. Makes a difference.

Do you have this quote in full without all the [...]?