Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism? Starts with Definitions

[Rawtheran]

Actually Dave, you can believe that you are saved but your salvation is ultimately in God's hands. As the text states, many are called but few are chosen.

Matthew was talking about the Five fold ministry in this scripture not salvation. As in every Christian is called to spread the news of Christ but only a few are called to a set apart life of serving the church in fulltime ministry.

 

[klutedavid]

Yes you can.
"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well."

The text adds the condition that the believer must not only talk the talk, but walk the walk also.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.

As the text declares the believer must enact God's will in order to be known by God.

 

[klutedavid]

Paul was talking about the Five fold ministry in this scripture not salvation. As in every Christian is called to spread the news of Christ but only a few are called to a set apart life of serving the church in fulltime ministry.

That verse was quoted from Matthew not Paul.

Actually, we are called to love others as Christ has loved us. That is the fruit of the Holy Spirit and you must bear the fruit.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

I see a free gift as Peter and Paul did.






The job can end if the work is not done. Thank God that's when He carries us until we can get back in the fight.

When Paul got blinded
and knocked off that donkey
now that's one heck of a free gift!
M-Bob


Paul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
Wikipedia › wiki › Conversion_of_...
Conversion of Paul the Apostle - Wikipedia

 

[Rawtheran]

That verse was quoted from Matthew not Paul.

Actually, we are called to love others as Christ has loved us. That is the fruit of the Holy Spirit and you must bear the fruit.

I just corrected it lol sorry about that

 

[klutedavid]

Really?

Romans 8: NASB

14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Looks good but there are other verses that matter also. How about I raise you on that hand.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

 

[klutedavid]

I just corrected it lol sorry about that

That's o.k I have done that myself.

 

[Charlie24]

When Paul got blinded and knocked off that donkey
that's one heck of a free gift!
M-Bob

Yes it was. I'm sure he didn't see that coming.

 

[redleghunter]

Prevenient Grace is not the same thing as 'Temporary Enlightenment." Prevenient Grace is the doctrine that while someone may be living a life in total depravity the spirit of God is still able to awaken them to their sin state and bring about an awareness of who God is and enables them to make the choice to either accept him or reject him which leads to becoming born again and being forgiven of their sins which is what is known as God's justifying grace.

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. - Romans 18-19

Verse 19 is general revelation.

 

[redleghunter]

Looks good but there are other verses that matter also. How about I raise you on that hand.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

Who was the only Perfect One?

 

[klutedavid]

Who was the only Perfect One?

Your question is not relevant to the post.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained it

You must strive to enter the kingdom of heaven. You can't sit back and beat your slaves and enjoy the finer things of life.

Walk the walk!

 

[renniks]

Temporary enlightenment is what Arminius taught as prevenient grace. What I’m saying is that is that the Calvin quote is probably the closest the two theologies come.

Yeah, and temporary enlightenment makes sense if it's resistible. And it's also how we experience conviction. I refused the Spirit many times, but never in an angry, permanent way. He kept coming back, but it was never in a forceful way. That's just not how God normally works. Rather, he usually uses the still small voice method.

 

[renniks]

ou may think whatever you like but everything has context. The truth is you don't actually think that. If a black person in 1955 drank from a water fountain after I said, "Anyone is free to drink from that white-only water fountain," they know that's not true. They know that "anyone" has context and there are specific people to whom the "anyone" applies others to whom it does not apply.

I have no idea what you are going on about. What does race have to do with it? There are no such restrictions in the context.

 

[renniks]

The text adds the condition that the believer must not only talk the talk, but walk the walk also.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.

As the text declares the believer must enact God's will in order to be known by God.

So? What you said is we can't know we are saved. We can. By the change in our hearts and actions, and by the Spirit's confirmation that we are his.

 

[BobRyan]

redleghunter said: ↑
Where does even repentance come from?

Acts 11: NASB

17“Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”18When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”

In some contexts - like the one Paul uses above - all of humanity is either "Jew" or "Gentile" so then if God is granting repentance that leads to life to both groups - that is all mankind.

So Universalism?

In Calvinism it would be - but in the Arminian model God "stands at the door and knocks" Rev 3 instead of bursting down the door and coming in, His "Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 and He "Draws all mankind unto Him" John 12:32 because Rom 2:11 "God is not partial" -- so the end result is that the "few" of Matt 7 are saved but not because God does not love them or work to save them.

"what more could I have done - than that which I have already done?" Is 5:4 is God's lament when it turns out "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

As we all saw in the OP.

So in Arminianism - it is nothing at all like universalism.

 

[redleghunter]

Your question is not relevant to the post.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained it

You must strive to enter the kingdom of heaven. You can't sit back and beat your slaves and enjoy the finer things of life.

Walk the walk!

I agree we walk the walk. No question about that. We love and obey. That much is very clear.

You posted a verse about not yet obtaining perfection. That’s why I responded as I did. The answer is Jesus Christ.

To enter the Kingdom we must be perfect as our Father in Heaven is Perfect.

The solution is through the One Who is Perfect in obedience and love. Jesus Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

In Calvinism it would be - but in the Arminian model God "stands at the door and knocks" Rev 3 instead of bursting down the door and coming in, His "Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 and He "Draws all mankind unto Him" John 12:32 because Rom 2:11 "God is not partial" -- so the end result is that the "few" of Matt 7 are saved but not because God does not love them or work to save them.

"what more could I have done - than that which I have already done?" Is 5:4 is God's lament when it turns out "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

As we all saw in the OP.

So in Arminianism - it is nothing at all like universalism.

If God grants repentance to everyone then everyone is saved.

 

[klutedavid]

So? What you said is we can't know we are saved. We can. By the change in our hearts and actions, and by the Spirit's confirmation that we are his.

I agree with what you said but ultimately this is not up to us. Our future ultimately rests with god Himself.

The problem is that we may be deceived into thinking that we are saved when we are not saved. I have talked with innumerable people over the years and many of those people seriously lacked the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Your life could become a very strong Christian life but what happens if you fall away later. It happens and even to people that were strong in the faith.

 

[renniks]

Your life could become a very strong Christian life but what happens if you fall away later. It happens and even to people that were strong in the faith.

Falling away into unbelief doesn't mean you weren't saved. That's why there's warnings about apostasy.

 

[Cis.jd]

Calvinism is a doctrine that forbids christians from thinking.

Its all about cherry picking verses vs cherry picking verses. You cant apply basic reasoning, facts, or logic to show any problematic interpretations.