Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism? Starts with Definitions

[redleghunter]

What did Peter mean when he said, For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off?

Was he referring to the children of Israel and all the rest of the world, the Gentiles?
Or was he referring to a selected few from Israel and and the rest of the world?

Now remember, the condition is that they, "Repent."

If you finish the statement then we find out:

39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

 

[BobRyan]

What is the context of God not a respected of persons?

Given that not "all" Jews are saved and not "all" gentiles are saved - it can only be "individuals" so then "between all individuals God is no respecter of persons"

The contrast is not between ethnic groups but between individuals that either obey the gospel or do not.

Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
So then ... no arbitrary selection process in action

 

[BobRyan]

Second, there are several flawed statements within the op. For example, the Revelation 3 text is written to the church, not to people in need of evangelization! This is shoddy exegesis.

Until you read Rev 3 - at which point you see that the person without Christ - is the on whose door Christ is knocking. And then "notice the detail" that no NT gospel writer ever said that they were not reaching non-Christians. In fact Rev 3 points to the fact that even inside the church -- are the unsaved.

I know of no Calvinist or Arminian that claims that everyone who attends church is saved.

 

[renniks]

My understanding is that in classic 3 and 5 point Calvinism if it turns out that you "fail to persevere" 10 years from today.. then any "proof" you thought you had that you are saved today ... is deleted. John MacArthur and Chuck Swindoll would be examples of people teaching that -

So logically, a Calvinist can never know if he's truly saved. So much for eternal security.

 

[Charlie24]

If you finish the statement then we find out:

39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

Yes, the Lord calls unto Himself those who repent and believe.

But how does He call them? Does He call them through the gospel being preached, directed to everyone, and chooses those who believe?

Or does He already have a selected few He chooses to hear the gospel?

 

[BobRyan]

So logically, a Calvinist can never know if he's truly saved. So much for eternal security.

That appears to be the case for 3 and 5 point Calvinists. But there is another option -- the 4 point Calvinist deletes the "perseverance" leg of Calvinism so that one is saved no matter if they live like the devil or not 10 years from today. Those guys have an iron clad lock down on assurance of salvation no doubt about.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, the Lord calls unto Himself those who repent and believe.

But how does He call them? Does He call them through the gospel being preached, directed to everyone, and chooses those who believe?

Or does He already have a selected few He chooses to hear the gospel?

And in the gospels 'the many" are "called".

And God not only calls all -- He commands all.

Acts 17:30 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

 

[Rawtheran]

This thread is not intended to be so much a round-and-round debate (though that could happen) but rather to "get the definitions on the table".

Essentially it is the issue of whether the Gospel invitation is for all - and "whosoever will" or is it a "selection" system where God "Selects" some for salvation and simply fails to select others thus God is the only actor/determination and the choice of the lost person is not a factor that determines anything at all.

The arminian model is an open system... where the Gospel is open to all "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door - I will come in" Rev 3.

The Calvinist model is one where God pre-selects those He is willing to save ... a selection that has nothing at all to do with the person selected.

In any case this thread is here for "the definitions".

It is not hurtful to either side - to be able to define from scripture what the point is on each side.



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In Arminianism free will exists because of the supernatural act of God in "drawing all mankind unto Him" John 12:32 and as a result we have

Evangelism where "we BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5
Evangelism where it is not God's WILL that ANY should perish (2 Peter 3) and yet only 'the FEW' of Matthew 7 are ultimately saved?
Evangelism where Christ "is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2
Evangelism where "God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave.."... yes really?
Evangelism where "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4:14?

And when someone chooses to be lost anyway God's response is
Evangelism where "he came to His own and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
Evangelism where Christ laments "Oh Jerusalem .. how I WANTED to spare your children.. but YOU would not"? Matt 23
He laments - "what more could I have done than that which I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4

I will leave it to Calvinists to post the texts that they feel define Calvinism's view of evangelism.

But I have seen this offered in the past (I think you have to use some significant degree of inference to get to Calvinism in these texts)
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Acts 18
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized. 9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.



Acts 13
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.

44The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. 45But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

47 For this is what the LORD has commanded us: "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. 49And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region. 50But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51But they shook off the dust of their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium. 52And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

As I understand it - In Calvinism - if you choose salvation and that "makes a difference" then God is deprived of some level of glory/honor and this is one reason they object to the Arminian form of the Gospel.

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1. BTW two points to remember: - Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that the supernatural drawing of God is more than sufficient to enable all the choice that depravity disables. That is not "the difference" between the two views.

2. Highly subjective summations/condemnation of "the other view" that you do not share - is not considered a compelling form of definition or debate, nor is it accepted by those who do not already agree with you - as proof of anything.

I am currently studying to become a Pastor in the Church of the Nazarene which is seen as belonging to the Wesleyan-Arminian tradition. Now with that being said I also have friends who are Reformed and have listened in great detail to what both sides have had to say. I can say with complete accuracy that no denomination or church follows Calvinism or Arminianism to the letter. If you were to follow Calvinism completely then it portrays God as a sadistic monster who pre ordained everything in existence which would include the creation of evil. If you follow Arminianism to the enth degree then that means God has no power over his creation at all. He's just a being who hangs out and waits for people to accept him and watches to see how events play out. Neither side in the extreme form are Biblical. I think both theologies contain a lot of truth about the Sovereignty of God and his love for humanity. Something I would just want people to remember is regardless of our theological differences we are Christians first and foremost. Neither Calvin nor Jacobus Arminius were Apostles directly appointed by the Holy Spirit to write the doctrine of the church. At the end of the day both Arminianism and Calvinism are just man's way of trying to explain God's nature and the truth is that God is so far above us little beings that we can never truly ever do so. Cheers.

 

[bling]

You cannot accept anything unless you believe = are saved.

No, anyone can accept pure charity for selfish reasons, no righteousness is needed.

 

[redleghunter]

Given that not "all" Jews are saved and not "all" gentiles are saved - it can only be "individuals" so then "between all individuals God is no respecter of persons"

The contrast is not between ethnic groups but between individuals that either obey the gospel or do not.

Rom 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
So then ... no arbitrary selection process in action

That was not the context. The Jews with Peter were astonished that God worked in the Gentiles like He did them. This clearly shows the Jew-Gentile divide which from the beginning of chapter 10 is the subject and leads into chapter 11 when Peter reports back the happenings to the church in Jerusalem. This theme continued into the council of Jerusalem in chapter 15.

Acts 11: NASB

1Now the apostles and the brethren who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those who were circumcised took issue with him, 3saying, “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”4But Peter began speaking and proceeded to explain to them in orderly sequence, saying, 5“I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, an object coming down like a great sheet lowered by four corners from the sky; and it came right down to me, 6and when I had fixed my gaze on it and was observing it I saw the four-footed animals of the earth and the wild beasts and the crawling creatures and the birds of the air.7“I also heard a voice saying to me, ‘Get up, Peter; kill and eat.’ 8“But I said, ‘By no means, Lord, for nothing unholy or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’9“But a voice from heaven answered a second time, ‘What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.’ 10“This happened three times, and everything was drawn back up into the sky. 11“And behold, at that moment three men appeared at the house in which we were staying, having been sent to me from Caesarea. 12“The Spirit told me to go with them without misgivings. These six brethren also went with me and we entered the man’s house. 13“And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’15“And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16“And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’17“Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”18When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.

 

[Josheb]

Until you read Rev 3 - at which point you see that the person without Christ - is the on whose door Christ is knocking. And then "notice the detail" that no NT gospel writer ever said that they were not reaching non-Christians. In fact Rev 3 points to the fact that even inside the church -- are the unsaved.

I know of no Calvinist or Arminian that claims that everyone who attends church is saved.

Well, let's go to the text and see what it actually states, and not what we might make it say to support our position.

Revelation 3:14-22
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. Because you say, 'I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"​

That is what the passage actually states. It will be noted that the arger passage is written, "to the seven churches that are in Asia," as is plainly stated in the first chapter, verse 4. By the time we get to the specific verse quoted in this op we see that verse was explicitly stated to be written, "To the angel of the church in Laodicea," and not to unbelievers and not as you now claim to "the person without Christ." The "anyone who hears my voice" are those in the church in Laodicea, those whose deeds God knows, those in the church who are lukewarm (not cold) and falsely imagine their riches make them in need of nothing. At no point anywhere in the narrative does it ever state the recipient audience is 1) non-believing or 2) "even in the church -- are the unsaved." You are reading that into the text and doing so in a book that explicitly states those who add to that book are cursed!


So the exegetical error has been pointed out.
The exegetical error has been denied and defended.
The exegetical error has again been pointed out, now with the evidence of scripture itself.

Make it right, Bob.

Then realize how easy it is to make these kinds of errors and how fatal it is to proving any position.

Then make sure you use this knowledge and wisdom whenever you read other theologians arguing scripture so that you will be able to see the exegetical flaws in their arguments because the errors are easily committed and sadly quite common, even from those who have advanced education and training and lofty letters after their name. Be as critical of your sources as you are of my critique.


Revelation 3:20 does not say "If unregenerate non-believers hear my voice and open the door Jesus will dine with them." It simply does not say any such thing. Neither does it provide any basis for anything about the salvation nor the evangelization of the unregenerate non-believing sinner. The only soteriological relevance it has is among those already known by Christ.

And if you cannot recognize that error then you're not going to recognize the many others in this op.

 

[jahel]

A repentance that leads to life should progress to acquiring the ability to bring shadows into the light and thereby bring the future into the present.

 

[redleghunter]

So logically, a Calvinist can never know if he's truly saved. So much for eternal security.

Don’t know where we get this. But let’s ask the question in a more friendly way:

Can a Christian know if he or she is truly saved?

 

[Dave L]

No, anyone can accept pure charity for selfish reasons, no righteousness is needed.

But, unless born again, you choose idols to your fleshly liking.

 

[renniks]

Of course. At least one who doesn't believe in Calvinist false theology of effervescent Grace.

Don’t know where we get this. But let’s ask the question in a more friendly way:

Can a Christian know if he or she is truly saved?

 

[Dave L]

I see Him as no respecter of persons in that all have an opportunity to believe the Gospel.

Your view shows respect to some and not others.

This is impossible. Trillions never heard the gospel.

 

[bling]

But, unless born again, you choose idols to your fleshly liking.

What does that have to do with accepting charity for selfish reasons, an idol does not give you anything.

 

[jahel]

Only according to the method of as je pense, donc je suis

 

[renniks]

if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

I kinda think anyone means anyone. If you get up in front of the church and say, anyone is invited to the potluck, I'm not going to assume you only mean the people in the congregation at that moment.

 

[Dave L]

Okay, but I thought no one would even seek out God unless He drew them...does He draw some people, but only part way (i.e., enough to recognize their need for God but not enough to give them saving faith)?

No, they hear the a version of the word at a superficial level. Like when evangelists preach prosperity. Who could turn that down?