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Featured Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism? Starts with Definitions

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by BobRyan, Jan 9, 2020.

  1. Rawtheran

    Rawtheran Lightmaker For Christ

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    Whoa thank you very much for this quote. Calvin really was a heretic if he truly believed in this concept because right now he's just making God look like the Sith Lord Emperor Palpatine.
     
  2. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Actually makes perfect Biblical sense.

    Matthew 13: NASB

    1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea. 2Such large crowds gathered around Him that He got into a boat and sat down, while all the people stood on the shore.3And He told them many things in parables, saying, “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.5Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.8Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a crop—a hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold.9He who has ears,a let him hear.”
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Lol. Jesus taught this in a parable:

    Matthew 13: NASB

    1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea. 2Such large crowds gathered around Him that He got into a boat and sat down, while all the people stood on the shore.3And He told them many things in parables, saying, “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.5Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.8Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a crop—a hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold.9He who has ears,a let him hear.”
     
  4. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Effervescent meaning: of a liquid) giving off bubbles; fizzy.

    Works for me.:) A bubbly faith that goes flat after a while.
    I'll try to look up the full quote when I'm not on my phone.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    “The reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy, they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their minds to this extent, that they recognize his grace; but that conviction he distinguishes from the peculiar testimony which he gives to his elect in this respect, that the reprobate never attain to the full result or to fruition. When he shows himself propitious to them, it is not as if he had truly rescued them from death, and taken them under his protection. He only gives them a manifestation of his present mercy. In the elect alone he implants the living root of faith, so that they persevere even to the end. Thus we dispose of the objection, that if God truly displays his grace, it must endure for ever. There is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.” – John Calvin (Book 3, Chapter 2:11)

    “As by the revolt of the first man, the image of God could be effaced from his mind and soul, so there is nothing strange in His shedding some rays of grace on the reprobate, and afterwards allowing these to be extinguished.” – John Calvin (Book 3, Chapter 2:12)

    “God is undoubtedly ready to pardon whenever the sinner turns. Therefore, he does not will his death, in so far as he wills repentance. But experience shows that this will, for the repentance of those whom he invites to himself, is not such as to make him touch all their hearts. Still, it cannot be said that he acts deceitfully; for though the external word only renders, those who hear it, and do not obey it, inexcusable, it is still truly regarded as an evidence of the grace by which he reconciles men to himself.” – John Calvin (Book 3, Chapter 24:15)

    There is one example in that quote above.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
  6. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Oh, this old chestnut
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    More of Calvin

    "
    11. I am aware it seems unaccountable to some how faith is attributed to the reprobate, seeing that it is declared by Paul to be one of the fruits of election;284 and yet the difficulty is easily solved: for though none are enlightened into faith, and truly feel the efficacy of the Gospel, with the exception of those who are fore-ordained to salvation, yet experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect, that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith, is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of his goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption. Should it be objected, that believers have no stronger testimony to assure them of their adoption, I answer, that though there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith, yet the elect alone have that full assurance which is extolled by Paul, and by which they are enabled to cry, Abba, Father. Therefore, as God regenerates the elect only for ever by incorruptible seed, as the seed of life once sown in their hearts never perishes, so he effectually seals in them the grace of his adoption, that it may be sure and steadfast. But in this there is nothing to prevent an inferior operation of the Spirit from taking its course in the reprobate. Meanwhile, believers are taught to examine themselves carefully and humbly, lest carnal security creep in and take the place of assurance of faith. We may add, that the reprobate never have any other than a confused sense of grace, laying hold of the shadow rather than the substance, because the Spirit properly seals the forgiveness of sins in the elect only, applying it by special faith to their use. Still it is correctly said, that 479the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy, they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their minds to this extent, that they recognize his grace; but that conviction he distinguishes from the peculiar testimony which he gives to his elect in this respect, that the reprobate never attain to the full result or to fruition. When he shows himself propitious to them, it is not as if he had truly rescued them from death, and taken them under his protection. He only gives them a manifestation of his present mercy.285 In the elect alone he implants the living root of faith, so that they persevere even to the end. Thus we dispose of the objection, that if God truly displays his grace, it must endure for ever. There is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent."
    John Calvin (Book 3, Chapter 2:11)

    John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    Try that one above.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    No need. Calvin was referring to the parable of the soils and wheat and tares.
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    What’s interesting is Arminius would probably have no problem with this quote from Calvin. Interesting.
     
  10. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    That makes no sense in the context of irresistible grace, though. Why would God temporarily enlighten those he never intended to regenerate?
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    In some contexts - like the one Paul uses above - all of humanity is either "Jew" or "Gentile" so then if God is granting repentance that leads to life to both groups - that is all mankind.
     
  12. Rawtheran

    Rawtheran Lightmaker For Christ

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    Here's a little tidbit that most Reformer's neglect to tell you. John Calvin was not the father of the Reformed tradition. As a matter of fact he never even wanted to be remembered the way he is today. He encouraged people who subscribed to his way of thinking to integrate within other churches. It was his followers who would go on to create TULIP and the theology of Calvinism while adding onto their own little sprinkles and removing some of the more questionable beliefs that Calvin possessed
     
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Temporary enlightenment is what Arminius taught as prevenient grace. What I’m saying is that is that the Calvin quote is probably the closest the two theologies come.
     
  14. Gwendolynz

    Gwendolynz New Member

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    Thank you for raising this issue. It has been just yonks since I was familiar with this issue. In reading the post, I would say that I am an Armenian. The center of my belief is Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? The scripture predates so many issues and Jesus the Christ, but is still the basis of a belief pleasing to God. Everything else is added to this.

    And, we all know folk who are not just or merciful. Those who want to lead God will never experience his mercy perhaps.
     
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    So Universalism?
     
  16. Rawtheran

    Rawtheran Lightmaker For Christ

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    Honestly Gwen just have faith in Jesus and grow in his grace knowing that you are saved. It's not the worse thing in the world if you don't know everything about the doctrines of calvinism and arminianism. It's the stupidest debate in the church's history imo
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I would just add we have to continue to learn about God. We must read the Bible cover to cover. At least every 12-18 months.
     
  18. Josheb

    Josheb Christian Supporter

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    You may think whatever you like but everything has context. The truth is you don't actually think that. If a black person in 1955 drank from a water fountain after I said, "Anyone is free to drink from that white-only water fountain," they know that's not true. They know that "anyone" has context and there are specific people to whom the "anyone" applies others to whom it does not apply.
    Try that if you're black in white supremacist congregation. Try that if you're leper or have ebola.

    The facts are as I have stated and those facts are objectively, easily, and readily observable in the text itself. There's a lot more going on there than what I have already mentioned. Jesus states he knows these people's works and he knows whether they are hot, cold, or lukewarm. Compare this, for example, to what Jesus says in Matthew 7 about the person he does not know who thinks themselves serving God.

    Matthew 7:21-23
    "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness."

    Salvation is not simply a matter of knowing God. It must necessarily entail being known by God.

    Galatians 4:6-11
    "Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!' Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain."

    The op proof-texted Rev. 3:22. Proof-texting is always and everywhere bad practice. The op ignored the surrounding verses and the local context they provided and the op neglected how other scripture informed our understanding of the Rev. 3 passage. These practices are also always and everywhere bad practice. When we impose what we think upon the scripture instead of the other way around it is eisegetic, not exegetic. That too is always and everywhere bad practice.
     
  19. Rawtheran

    Rawtheran Lightmaker For Christ

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    Prevenient Grace is not the same thing as 'Temporary Enlightenment." Prevenient Grace is the doctrine that while someone may be living a life in total depravity the spirit of God is still able to awaken them to their sin state and bring about an awareness of who God is and enables them to make the choice to either accept him or reject him which leads to becoming born again and being forgiven of their sins which is what is known as God's justifying grace.

    18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. - Romans 18-19
     
  20. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Actually Dave, you can believe that you are saved but your salvation is ultimately in God's hands. As the text states, many are called but few are chosen.
     
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