Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism? Starts with Definitions

[Emsmom1]

Is evangelism even needed in Calvinism? If God is going to save certain people anyway?

 

[Charlie24]

Only the saved will call on his name.

Whosoever calls on His name in repentance is what I read in the bible.

You can't be saved before you see your need for a Saviour.

Oh I forgot, God's chosen don't have to that. They are already saved before they call on Him.

 

[Dave L]

Whosoever calls on His name in repentance is what I read in the bible.

You can't be saved before you see your need for a Saviour.

Oh I forgot, God's chosen don't have to that. They are already saved before they call on Him.

Only believers will do this. Unbelievers certainly won't.

 

[Dave L]

Is evangelism even needed in Calvinism? If God is going to save certain people anyway?

They need directions for living a holy life.

 

[redleghunter]

Is evangelism even needed in Calvinism? If God is going to save certain people anyway?

Evangelism is the method God chose to deliver the means.

 

[bling]

With Calvinism you see your faith as proof God saved you. You could not believe otherwise. With Arminianism you see the gospel as a job offer. And believe God will owe you salvation when you accept the offer and go to work. = two different gospels.

Accepting pure charity is not work, but than you can do what you want, which out of gratitude will be pleasing to God activities.

 

[Dave L]

Accepting pure charity is not work, but than you can do what you want, which out of gratitude will be pleasing to God activities.

You cannot accept anything unless you believe = are saved.

 

[Charlie24]

Only believers will do this. Unbelievers certainly won't.

Dave,I like you. I think if I were to meet you in person, you would be one of those who I couldn't help but like. Your composure in debate reminds me of someone I know here in my home town. Wish I had your qualities there.

But Dave, God does not pick some out of a bucket for salvation.

His Grace is far beyond that. He is a merciful and gracious God to all who will call on Him.

Peter said, that God's will is for no one to perish and that all will come to repentance.

Sorry I was so hard on you Brother.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

This thread is not intended to be so much a round-and-round debate (though that could happen) but rather to "get the definitions on the table".

Essentially it is the issue of whether the Gospel invitation is for all - and "whosoever will" or is it a "selection" system where God "Selects" some for salvation and simply fails to select others thus God is the only actor/determination and the choice of the lost person is not a factor that determines anything at all.

The arminian model is an open system... where the Gospel is open to all "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door - I will come in" Rev 3.

The Calvinist model is one where God pre-selects those He is willing to save ... a selection that has nothing at all to do with the person selected.

In any case this thread is here for "the definitions".

It is not hurtful to either side - to be able to define from scripture what the point is on each side.



=====================================================
In Arminianism free will exists because of the supernatural act of God in "drawing all mankind unto Him" John 12:32 and as a result we have

Evangelism where "we BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5
Evangelism where it is not God's WILL that ANY should perish (2 Peter 3) and yet only 'the FEW' of Matthew 7 are ultimately saved?
Evangelism where Christ "is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2
Evangelism where "God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave.."... yes really?
Evangelism where "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4:14?

And when someone chooses to be lost anyway God's response is
Evangelism where "he came to His own and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
Evangelism where Christ laments "Oh Jerusalem .. how I WANTED to spare your children.. but YOU would not"? Matt 23
He laments - "what more could I have done than that which I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4

I will leave it to Calvinists to post the texts that they feel define Calvinism's view of evangelism.

But I have seen this offered in the past (I think you have to use some significant degree of inference to get to Calvinism in these texts)
===========================================

Acts 18
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized. 9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.



Acts 13
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.

44The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. 45But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

47 For this is what the LORD has commanded us: "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. 49And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region. 50But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51But they shook off the dust of their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium. 52And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

As I understand it - In Calvinism - if you choose salvation and that "makes a difference" then God is deprived of some level of glory/honor and this is one reason they object to the Arminian form of the Gospel.

==========================================

1. BTW two points to remember: - Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that the supernatural drawing of God is more than sufficient to enable all the choice that depravity disables. That is not "the difference" between the two views.

2. Highly subjective summations/condemnation of "the other view" that you do not share - is not considered a compelling form of definition or debate, nor is it accepted by those who do not already agree with you - as proof of anything.

This thread is not intended to be so much a round-and-round debate (though that could happen) but rather to "get the definitions on the table".

Essentially it is the issue of whether the Gospel invitation is for all - and "whosoever will" or is it a "selection" system where God "Selects" some for salvation and simply fails to select others thus God is the only actor/determination and the choice of the lost person is not a factor that determines anything at all.

The arminian model is an open system... where the Gospel is open to all "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door - I will come in" Rev 3.

The Calvinist model is one where God pre-selects those He is willing to save ... a selection that has nothing at all to do with the person selected.

In any case this thread is here for "the definitions".

It is not hurtful to either side - to be able to define from scripture what the point is on each side.



=====================================================
In Arminianism free will exists because of the supernatural act of God in "drawing all mankind unto Him" John 12:32 and as a result we have

Evangelism where "we BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5
Evangelism where it is not God's WILL that ANY should perish (2 Peter 3) and yet only 'the FEW' of Matthew 7 are ultimately saved?
Evangelism where Christ "is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2
Evangelism where "God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave.."... yes really?
Evangelism where "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1 John 4:14?

And when someone chooses to be lost anyway God's response is
Evangelism where "he came to His own and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
Evangelism where Christ laments "Oh Jerusalem .. how I WANTED to spare your children.. but YOU would not"? Matt 23
He laments - "what more could I have done than that which I have already done?" Isaiah 5:4

I will leave it to Calvinists to post the texts that they feel define Calvinism's view of evangelism.

But I have seen this offered in the past (I think you have to use some significant degree of inference to get to Calvinism in these texts)
===========================================

Acts 18
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized. 9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.



Acts 13
42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.

44The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. 45But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

47 For this is what the LORD has commanded us: "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. 49And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region. 50But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51But they shook off the dust of their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium. 52And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

As I understand it - In Calvinism - if you choose salvation and that "makes a difference" then God is deprived of some level of glory/honor and this is one reason they object to the Arminian form of the Gospel.

==========================================

1. BTW two points to remember: - Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that the supernatural drawing of God is more than sufficient to enable all the choice that depravity disables. That is not "the difference" between the two views.

2. Highly subjective summations/condemnation of "the other view" that you do not share - is not considered a compelling form of definition or debate, nor is it accepted by those who do not already agree with you - as proof of anything.

Evangelism is the spreading of the Christian gospel by public preaching or personal witness. This is not the spreading of "theological systems". If you only had 60 seconds to witness to an unbeliever I would guess theology would not come into play, only the purity of the Good News. I also believe a Calvinist and Armenian would deliver that message in the same manner because the core truth of the Gospel can not be corrupted.
Blessings

 

[Dave L]

Dave,I like you. I think if I were to meet you in person, you would be one of those who I couldn't help but like. Your composure in debate reminds me of someone I know here in my home town. Wish I had your qualities there.

But Dave, God does not pick some out of a bucket for salvation.

His Grace is far beyond that. He is a merciful and gracious God to all who will call on Him.

Peter said, that God's will is for no one to perish and that all will come to repentance.

Sorry I was so hard on you Brother.

His choice must be arbitrary or he is a respecter of persons.

 

[Emsmom1]

3/4 of the seed washed out. Only the good soil brought endurance.

Okay, but I thought no one would even seek out God unless He drew them...does He draw some people, but only part way (i.e., enough to recognize their need for God but not enough to give them saving faith)?

 

[Charlie24]

His choice must be arbitrary or he is a respecter of persons.

I see Him as no respecter of persons in that all have an opportunity to believe the Gospel.

Your view shows respect to some and not others.

 

[Josheb]

This thread is not intended to be so much a round-and-round debate (though that could happen) but rather to "get the definitions on the table"...........................................................

First, this op is waaayyy too long to discuss all of its particulars in any structurally coherent manner.

Second, there are several flawed statements within the op. For example, the Revelation 3 text is written to the church, not to people in need of evangelization! This is shoddy exegesis.

Sadly, shoddy exegesis, or more accurately eisegetic interpretations are the second most frequently occurring error in discussions about monergism and synergism. The first most frequently occurring error being the failure to correctly understand the respective soteriologies.

The point here is you cannot use Rev. 3 to justify an Arm pov, and certainly not the premise of the openness, because it isn't written to or about those need ing evangelism and salvation. Big Fail.

Arminian free will does not exist because of God' act of drawing. Arminius did not believe the will was free in any definition that would have it autonomous or able to act soteriologically absent prevenient grace. Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Arminius, and Wesley ALL agreed with the principle we now call "total depravity. ALL of them. Without acting to free the sinner to have a point of liberated choice the sinner is wholly enslaved and unable to come to God.

So you've committed the first most frequently occurring error in these discussions, too.

The above comments are not intended to be hurtful to you. The op is simply incorrect on all these points. Scripture cannot be correctly "defined" by these errors. Neither can the matter of evangelism be meted out with these errors. There are others in this op but I haven't currently got the time to go through the whole op and correct all the many errors contained therein.

Go back and re-read your own op and look at how many times scriptures written by already regenerate believers to already regenerate believers about already regenerate believers was applied to the unregenerate still-sinfully-dead-and-enlsaved non-believer, and then realize how many errors were committed!

Because there are a lot of them.

Then go look at the prophetic nature of some of the scriptures cited. Understand once God stated X was gonna occur a certain determinism immediately accompanied those declarations. There was simply no chance the subjects of those prophesies were ever gonna be able to do other than that which God had prophetically stated would occur. This means there is another form of determinism beside that often incorrectly imagined to occur in Calvinist soteriology prior to creation. Those prophesies are a post-creation, post-sin occurrence.

Lastly, not how the entirety of the pre-epistolary scripture is uniformly about people who already believe a God exists. These are not atheists. Yes, they are people who need to hear the gospel of Christ, but they are not people who need to hear an apologetic for the existence of God. The Jew already has a theology for the Messiah; they simply didn't believe the Messiah is Jesus. So, if you're going to have an op on "definitions" you've got to correctly parse out the various influences and audiences because modern-day evangelism often entails people not often represented in scripture.

 

[redleghunter]

I see Him as no respecter of persons in that all have an opportunity to believe the Gospel.

Your view shows respect to some and not others.

What is the context of God not a respected of persons?

 

[redleghunter]

Okay, but I thought no one would even seek out God unless He drew them...does He draw some people, but only part way (i.e., enough to recognize their need for God but not enough to give them saving faith)?

John 10: NASB

27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

 

[Charlie24]

What is the context of God not a respected of persons?

Peter is referring to the salvation of the Gentiles.

Up to this point he had only preached salvation to the Jews.

It means whosoever will can be saved.

 

[redleghunter]

Peter is referring to the salvation of the Gentiles.

Up to this point he had only preached salvation to the Jews.

It means whosoever will can be saved.

Yes the context is that salvation through Jesus Christ was not only for the Jews. The “respecter” is related to ethnicity.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes the context is that salvation through Jesus Christ was not only for the Jews. The “respecter” is related to ethnicity.

Would you agree that Peter preached that whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved? Regardless of who they are?

 

[redleghunter]

Would you agree that Peter preached that whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved? Regardless of who they are?

I do know this is what Peter said:

Acts 2: NASB

37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

 

[Charlie24]

I do know this is what Peter said:

Acts 2: NASB

37Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

What did Peter mean when he said, For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off?

Was he referring to the children of Israel and all the rest of the world, the Gentiles?
Or was he referring to a selected few from Israel and and the rest of the world?

Now remember, the condition is that they, "Repent."