A Corporeal Return? Says Who?

[RaymondG]

Which is why Jesus said to the pharisees something like ; " it is in your own scriptures... but still you don't recognize me. " Jesus return, it's written in the scriptures - literally.

Yes, and if the masters of the law were able to misinterpret scripture, to the point that the man the scriptures are written about, could stand in front of them and they not recognize Him.......It would be wise for my to not be religious about my interpretation concerning the coming of the Lord.......but to be more Childlike.

 

[Pedra]

Yes, and if the masters of the law were able to misinterpret scripture, to the point that the man the scriptures are written about, could stand in front of them and they not recognize Him.......It would be wise for my to not be religious about my interpretation concerning the coming of the Lord.......but to be more Childlike.

So being childlike , I take Jesus at His word & scripture as the word of God and so I read the scripture literally. There will be a snatching away of believer & Jesus will meet us in the air. (1Thess 4) Later He will return bodily with a heavenly army of His saints....Rev 19:11-16
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [harpazo]together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

 

[RaymondG]

So being childlike , I take Jesus at His word & scripture as the word of God and so I read the scripture literally. There will be a snatching away of believer & Jesus will meet us in the air. (1Thess 4) Later He will return bodily with a heavenly army of His saints....Rev 19:11-16
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [harpazo]together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

What if Jesus stood before you.....in a way different than what you believe the word to describe? Will you believe the written words or the living word?

 

[Neostarwcc]

If he does not return in flesh and blood and fulfill the remaining prophesies that were not fulfilled the first time around then he is and was not the messiah.

Indeed. Christ is going to come back in his eternal physical body and to fulfill the rest of scripture. He's not going to come back the way the OP desvribed.

 

[SeventyOne]

That could be interpreted non-literally, as an anthropomorphism. Neither Jews nor Christians believe feet pertain to a divine nature, per se.

Of course that's not literal. To assign physical limitations to the Lord, like feet, is to reduce him to a size that fits neatly into a futurist box.

Zechariah affirms Haggai's prophesies associated with the rebuilding of the Temple at Jerusalem after the exile. Zechariah found impetus to his prophetic activity in the revolts that broke out in the vassal states of the Persian empire. Any allusion of his to the Messianic Age do not hint that the messiah is merely a man.

You'd have to make a lot of literal locations and actions figurative in order the just brush it off so easily.

It not only mentions His feet touching a literal mountain, and it literally splitting in half, but twice it mentions on His day of vengeance that He becomes covered in the literal blood of men.

Isaiah 63:2-6: Why is your apparel red, and your garments like his who treads in the winepress?
“I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no one was with me; I trod them in my anger and trampled them in my wrath; their lifeblood spattered on my garments, and stained all my apparel. For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and my year of redemption had come. I looked, but there was no one to help; I was appalled, but there was no one to uphold; so my own arm brought me salvation, and my wrath upheld me. I trampled down the peoples in my anger; I made them drunk in my wrath, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.”

And again reiterated in Revelation 19:11-15.

 

[Pedra]

What if Jesus stood before you.....in a way different than what you believe the word to describe? Will you believe the written words or the living word?

The scripture was written by the Holy Spirit & He is consistent and doesn't contradict Himself so, all scripture backs up other scripture. I believe He already told us the ways God reveals Himself & how He will appear & return are exactly the ways the Bible has told us. Therefore for eg, if a sea shell burst full of light & spoke to me and said it was Jesus, I'd believe this was one of the false Christ's or a deceiving spirit and I'd test it as per the Bible since the Lord warned us about this in His word, He also said the Anti-christ was going to deceive many, forewarned is forearmed. I take the Bible as it is , I don't add to it or subtract.

 

[RaymondG]

The scripture was written by the Holy Spirit & He is consistent and doesn't contradict Himself so, all scripture backs up other scripture. I believe He already told us the ways God reveals Himself & how He will appear & return are exactly the ways the Bible has told us. Therefore for eg, if a sea shell burst full of light & spoke to me and said it was Jesus, I'd believe this was one of the false Christ's or a deceiving spirit and I'd test it as per the Bible since the Lord warned us about this in His word, He also said the Anti-christ was going to deceive many, forewarned is forearmed. I take the Bible as it is , I don't add to it or subtract.

I agree. However I believe the pharisee felt the same. They were masters of the scriptures and would not let anyone do or say anything contrary to what they read and studied. Anyone who did was accounted a blasphemer and put to death. So I make sure to differentiate between what I read, interpret and believe, from what God reveals and therefore I know.

I have little confidence in my interpretations of words and therefore am solely dependent on Daily Bread.

I find no fault in anything you have said and hope that you are correct in all your interpretations.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Jesus tells Caiaphas that he is coming in power in the clouds of heaven (Mt 26:64). Yes, clouds of heaven; not a stratus cloud, a cumulus cloud, or a fog hovering over a lake. Clouds of heaven.

Jesus also says that he will come “as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west.” (Mt 24:27) He comes as light from all directions. Also as the sound of the trumpet of God. (1 Thes 4:16). To repeat, a trumpet of God, not marching band brass.

The Bible does not describe a flesh-and-blood return of Christ.

When we consider all the ways that the Parousia is prophesied, we see that he comes everywhere. Lightning lights up the sky all around. The nature of his coming may elude us until we grasp it in the context of scripture. The way that Jesus comes—on clouds of heaven, as a call from God, as lightning—cannot be manifested in flesh and blood. A man cannot come in these ways. Christ’s advent is rather a return in power and spirit that the Scriptures corroborate. How much more glorious and momentous an advent that would be than to come in the body of a man.

Think about that for a moment, about limitations imposed on flesh and blood, even Christ’s. When in the flesh, Jesus performed miracles and amazed the crowds around him, and even some who heard by word of mouth. His miracles impacted locally. If he were to be a man again, what would change? What would his impact be globally and for all time? Would he really effect a worldwide utopia? Of course not. Even a return in power and spirit would not effect such an “idyllic” world. John the Divine says the wicked still live on the earth despite the presence of the kingdom. God’s kingdom does not vanquish evil from the world. It confronts evil and challenges it, but wickedness still persists outside the gates.

So where does the idea of a corporeal return come from? The church fathers? Dispensationalists? Who knows?

Certainly not from the Scriptures.

Jesus was crucified in His flesh, was raised in His flesh, ascended in His flesh, and will return in His flesh.

Since the Incarnation in the womb of the Virgin, His divine nature is eternally united to His human nature in one and the same Person, and will never be separated.

 

[Calminian]

If you believe in a Jesus that will return spiritually but not physically, you're following a false god.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Exactly. A cloud of heaven took him out of their sight.

Did you not ask if He will come back in the flesh? Corporeal? A cloud surround Him when He left, in the flesh, and will again in the flesh return in a cloud. A cloud always accompanied the Lord. It is all over OT scripture. Consider it a "Holy" vehicle.
Blessings

 

[St_Worm2]

Matthew 24:27.

Hi Bob, in Matthew 24 the Lord tells us about the signs of His return, about the kind of things that we should be looking for so that, we who are His, will not be misled by false prophets and/or the false Christs claiming to be Him before He returns.

As for v27, here it is in context:

Matthew 24
23 If anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.
24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them.
27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.​

V27 doesn't tell us that the Lord will return 'as' lightning (or in some other, non-corporeal way), rather, that His return will be 'like' lightning, in the sense that everyone is going to know that He's returned w/o being told (just like everyone knows when lightning lights up the sky w/o being told). That's why we can rest assured that those who come up to us and claim that He's returned, and/or claim to be Him, are either 1. lying to us or 2. deceived (or both), which is why the Bible tells us, "do not believe them".

Jesus, since His Incarnation, has remained both God and man. After His Resurrection, He ascended into Heaven as the God/man (with His now risen and glorified human body), and He will return to us as such.

Yours and His,
David

Mark 14
23 Jesus took the cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them, and they all drank from it.
24 And He said to them, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.
25 Assuredly, I say to you, I will no longer drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."​

 

[Blade]

I agree Pedra… just like a child.. take Him at His word.. for ME.. seen so many wonders.. praise GOD glory to JESUS! Always ready always looking up.. its AWESOME! I live my life for HIM.. how I think how I live.. treat others.. HE shows me so much LOVE forgiveness grace.. I do the same. Always making sure I am thinking praying ALWAYS ready.. MAN lies.. He has NEVER once lied...so.. yeah.. going to take HIM at His word.. and Father if I am wrong in ANY WAY..change me 1st.. SHOW me where its written.. in JESUS name

 

[Ing Bee]

When you say that Jesus was taken up into the first heaven, that is not self-explanatory. That is you. The Bible does not say that he was taken up into the first heaven.

Hi Bob-
Here are a few other passages to consider in case no one has brought them up:

Acts 2:3-35 Jesus went to the right hand of God and from there dispensed the Holy Spirit. Cloud and sky terminology is used of divinity (see the Son of Man passage in Daniel)

Acts 3:19-21 Peter says that if the unbelieving Jews will turn to God he MAY send the Messiah. Why "may send" and not "has sent"? Because (v.21)"Heaven must receive him until the time comes for the Lord to restore everything.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Paul encourages the Thessalonians:

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him...
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven...
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
​

Acts 17:31 - Paul says that God has appointed a day when everyone will be judged by a man he has appointed.

​

I do believe Jesus came in power with the destruction of the temple in A.D.70. All of the Matthew 23-24 business surrounded the destruction of the temple and end of that which was already obselete. (Hebrews 8:13) However, obviously, Paul is not talking about that because we haven't been raised. 1 Thess. 4:14,16&17 have the person of Jesus as the central, joyful object to encourage the Thessalonians ("with Jesus", "the Lord himself will come down", "meet the Lord in the air").

By reading the Acts 1 passage with the two sermon pieces from Acts 2 and 3, I don't think a non-corporeal return is what is being talked about.

Also, I'm not sure why you are focusing on the clouds rather than the body of Jesus. If Jesus drove away in a car and someone said he would return the same way he went, I would not be expecting a car to come driving back by itself. The disciples kept looking for Jesus to return, not clouds. That's why the angels had to tell them to knock it off and get to work. It's in the logic of the narrative. Note the angels say "this same Jesus"; Their master will return, the same one they just thought they had lost, the same one who rose from the dead, the same one who has appeared to them for over a month, their friend, teacher, and king.

In sum, I'm with you if you apply Matthew 23-24 to A.D. 70, but there is a second coming still to come, otherwise, Paul's encouragement and Peter's words don't make sense. I think you might be arguing from a false dichotomy; it's both.

 

[Pedra]

I agree Pedra… just like a child.. take Him at His word.. for ME.. seen so many wonders.. praise GOD glory to JESUS! Always ready always looking up.. its AWESOME! I live my life for HIM.. how I think how I live.. treat others.. HE shows me so much LOVE forgiveness grace.. I do the same. Always making sure I am thinking praying ALWAYS ready.. MAN lies.. He has NEVER once lied...so.. yeah.. going to take HIM at His word.. and Father if I am wrong in ANY WAY..change me 1st.. SHOW me where its written.. in JESUS name

Amen!

 

[FireDragon76]

You'd have to make a lot of literal locations and actions figurative in order the just brush it off so easily.

It not only mentions His feet touching a literal mountain, and it literally splitting in half, but twice it mentions on His day of vengeance that He becomes covered in the literal blood of men.

Isaiah 63:2-6: Why is your apparel red, and your garments like his who treads in the winepress?
“I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no one was with me; I trod them in my anger and trampled them in my wrath; their lifeblood spattered on my garments, and stained all my apparel. For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and my year of redemption had come. I looked, but there was no one to help; I was appalled, but there was no one to uphold; so my own arm brought me salvation, and my wrath upheld me. I trampled down the peoples in my anger; I made them drunk in my wrath, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.”

That's still an anthropomorphism. Hebrew thought is full of this sort of imagery, they were not abstract thinkers.

 

[JLHargus]

So where does the idea of a corporeal return come from? The church fathers? Dispensationalists? Who knows? Certainly not from the Scriptures.

[Acts17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.]

Acts17:31 Man=aner=male.

[1Tm2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;]

1Tm2:5 Man=anthropos=human being, whether male or female.

[Jn5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.]

Jn5:27 Son of Man anthropos=human being, male or female.

[Rv1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.]

The God Man Jesus was pierced and is to come the Almighty.

 

[Residential Bob]

Did you not ask if He will come back in the flesh? Corporeal? A cloud surround Him when He left, in the flesh, and will again in the flesh return in a cloud. A cloud always accompanied the Lord. It is all over OT scripture. Consider it a "Holy" vehicle.
Blessings

A cloud surrounded him in the flesh? Is that so?

First, does a cloud surround him? Is that what the Bible says? Do clouds of heaven surround the Lord? Does He need such a vehicle?

When He comes to judge Egypt, He's on a cloud (Is 19:1). When He comes to judge Nineveh, clouds are the dust of His feet (Na 1:3). Clouds don't surround Him. Maybe in Acts, clouds did surround Him, but that's not what the Bible says.

This is a problem with futurism. It reads into the Bible what is not there, and yet insists that the Bible be read literally.

But I nitpick, and digress.

A cloud took him in the flesh, you say. He's human.

I, on the other hand, say he's divine.

Human beings don't resurrect; that is an act of divinity. Human beings don't appear through locked doors; that is an act of divinity. Human beings don't leave or appear in clouds of heaven; those are acts of divinity.

Or maybe you can provide examples of a human being doing any of theses of his own volition.

The resurrected Christ was transforming. He was taken out of the apostles' sight in power and glory.

They did not see a flesh-and-blood human being disappear in a cumulus cloud. They did not see a flesh-and-blood human being float up into space.

They saw the Lord taken out of their sight in power and glory.

 

[Neostarwcc]

A cloud surrounded him in the flesh? Is that so?

First, does a cloud surround him? Is that what the Bible says? Do clouds of heaven surround the Lord? Does He need such a vehicle?

When He comes to judge Egypt, He's on a cloud (Is 19:1). When He comes to judge Nineveh, clouds are the dust of His feet (Na 1:3). Clouds don't surround Him. Maybe in Acts, clouds did surround Him, but that's not what the Bible says.

This is a problem with futurism. It reads into the Bible what is not there, and yet insists that the Bible be read literally.

But I nitpick, and digress.

A cloud took him in the flesh, you say. He's human.

I, on the other hand, say he's divine.

Human beings don't resurrect; that is an act of divinity. Human beings don't appear through locked doors; that is an act of divinity. Human beings don't leave or appear in clouds of heaven; those are acts of divinity.

Or maybe you can provide examples of a human being doing any of theses of his own volition.

The resurrected Christ was transforming. He was taken out of the apostles' sight in power and glory.

They did not see a flesh-and-blood human being disappear in a cumulus cloud. They did not see a flesh-and-blood human being float up into space.

They saw the Lord taken out of their sight in power and glory.

A cloud surrounded him in the flesh? Is that so?

First, does a cloud surround him? Is that what the Bible says? Do clouds of heaven surround the Lord? Does He need such a vehicle?

When He comes to judge Egypt, He's on a cloud (Is 19:1). When He comes to judge Nineveh, clouds are the dust of His feet (Na 1:3). Clouds don't surround Him. Maybe in Acts, clouds did surround Him, but that's not what the Bible says.

This is a problem with futurism. It reads into the Bible what is not there, and yet insists that the Bible be read literally.

But I nitpick, and digress.

A cloud took him in the flesh, you say. He's human.

I, on the other hand, say he's divine.

Human beings don't resurrect; that is an act of divinity. Human beings don't appear through locked doors; that is an act of divinity. Human beings don't leave or appear in clouds of heaven; those are acts of divinity.

Or maybe you can provide examples of a human being doing any of theses of his own volition.

The resurrected Christ was transforming. He was taken out of the apostles' sight in power and glory.

They did not see a flesh-and-blood human being disappear in a cumulus cloud. They did not see a flesh-and-blood human being float up into space.

They saw the Lord taken out of their sight in power and glory.

But like people are trying to tell you. Christ has to come back in the flesh or he can't fulfil the rest of scripture and if he doesn't fulfil the rest of scripture than he can't be the Jewish messiah. Because the messiah has to fulfil ALL of scripture. When Christ returns he will return in the same physical body that he has when he rose from the grave and every one will be able to see his return. Including those who mocked and pierced the Jewish messiah.

 

[Residential Bob]

But like people are trying to tell you. Christ has to come back in the flesh or he can't fulfil the rest of scripture and if he doesn't fulfil the rest of scripture than he can't be the Jewish messiah. Because the messiah has to fulfil ALL of scripture. When Christ returns he will return in the same physical body that he has when he rose from the grave and every one will be able to see his return. Including those who mocked and pierced the Jewish messiah.

Yea, so keep telling me if you wish.

When you do next time, will tell me what these unfulfilled prophecies are?

 

[JLHargus]

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