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Featured A Corporeal Return? Says Who?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Residential Bob, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    What's the point of this? That Titus was somehow the feet of Jesus?

    Did the mountain split north and south so that today there is a great valley between the halves? (v.4)
    Did Titus come with the holy ones of God? (v.5)
    Was there no light? Daytime? Nighttime? (v. 6-7)
    Did living waters flow east and west out of Jerusalem to the seas on that day and continue until now? (v.8)
     
  2. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Did Jesus' feet stand on the mount of Olives or not?

    Zechariah 14:4 "HIS FEET WILL STAND ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES

    4 And in that day His feet stand on the Mount of Olives,
    Which faces Jerusalem on the east.

    Luke 21:37 - And in the daytime He was teaching in the temple, but at night He went out and stayed on the mountain called Olivet.
    Luke 22:39 Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His Disciples also followed Him.
    ==================
    Similarity of Titus and the King of Babylon.........

    Jer 27:
    6 ‘And now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant;
    and the beasts of the field I have also given him to serve him
    13 “Why will you die, you and your people, by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence, as the LORD has spoken against the nation that will not serve the king of Babylon?
    14 “Therefore do not listen to the words of the prophets who speak to you, saying, ‘You shall not serve the king of Babylon,' for they prophesy a lie to you;
    17 ‘Do not listen to them; serve the king of Babylon, and live! Why should this city be laid waste?

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
    "..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
    ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM


    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

    Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications
    and while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF.
    "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?" After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations

    In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings. Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground
    ============================
    The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

    Luke 19:
    41 And as He nears, beholding the City, and He laments on Her,
    42 saying, "That if Thou knew and Thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward peace of Thee,
    now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
    43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee,
    and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee
    and shall be encompassing Thee,
    and pressing Thee from-every-side.
    44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
    and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,
    stead which not Thou knew the season of the visitation<1984> of Thee".

    Matthew 24:
    1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
    And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
    2 And Jesus said to them, “ are ye not seeing all these?
    Amen I am saying to ye,
    not no may be being left here stone upon stone, which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>.”

    Mark 13:
    1 And He going forth out of the Temple, one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”
    2 And Jesus answering said to him, “thou are beholding these, the great buildings.
    Not no may be being left here stone upon stone which not no may be being thrown-down<2647>

    Luke 21:
    5 and of some saying concerning the Temple, that to goodly<2570> stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>
    6 “These which ye are beholding.Shall be coming days in which
    not shall be being left stone upon stone here
    which not shall be being thrown-down<2647>
    ===================================
    [​IMG]

    Siege of Jerusalem (70 CE) - Wikipedia

    Titus began his siege a few days before Passover, surrounding the city, with three legions (V Macedonica, XII Fulminata, XV Apollinaris) on the western side
    and a fourth (X Fretensis) on the Mount of Olives to the east.

    If the reference in his Jewish War at 6:421 is to Titus' siege, though difficulties exist with its interpretation, then at the time, according to Josephus, Jerusalem was thronged with many people who had come to celebrate Passover.[9]
    [​IMG]
    .....................,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.......
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
  3. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Jesus did stand on the mount of Olives several times. But what I'm gathering here is that you are demonstrating Titus did not fulfill that Zechariah passage.
     
  4. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Correct.
    Titus fulfilled the part of the the 70ad Jerusalem/Temple discourse concerning "enemies encompassing Jerusalem". I am going to make a separate thread on that sometime later [as I have many that I am already working on]

    Luke 19:
    41 And as He nears, beholding the City, and He laments on Her,
    42 saying, "That if Thou knew and Thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward peace of Thee,
    now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
    43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee,
    and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee
    and shall be encompassing Thee,
    and pressing Thee from-every-side.
    44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee,
    and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee,
    stead which not Thou knew the season of the visitation<1984> of Thee".

    Luke 21:
    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that Her desolation has come near.
    24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
    And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”


    Revelation 11:
    1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar and those worshiping in it
    2 and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the Nations
    and they shall be trampling<3961> the holy City forty two months.

    Please visit my thread on the study of Jerusalem 70ad being in Revelation. It is a work in progress as translating it takes a lot of time.

    The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    The Jews say Jesus will fulfill all prophecies the 1st time round.
    And I agree with the them...........

    They just don't see that one of the greatest prophecies in the NT, Isaiah 61:2 ,was totally fulfilled with Jesus preaching the Gospel to them, but the the day of vengeance on them and their City 40yrs later.
    Plus they do not read the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation which keeps them in the dark about the final judgement of Jesus upon the OC Nation of Judah and Jerusalem. IMHO

    "DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation

    Isaiah 61:2

    To proclaim the year of the good pleasure of Yahweh,
    And the day of vengeance<5359> of our 'Elohiym, To comfort all mourners.

    Luke 4:
    17 the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. Unrolling it, He found the place where it was written:
    21 and He began by saying,
    “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.

    Luke 21:
    22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled all the having been written

    Revelation 19:2
    “For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication;
    and He has avenged <1556> on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”
    =========================

    Here is some info:

    https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/why-dont-jews-see-jesus-in-the-scriptures/

    Aside from failing to fulfill the central messianic criteria of the scriptures, there was also a prophecy that Elijah the prophet must return before the coming of Messiah (Malachi 4:5-6 [3:23-24 in Jewish versions of Malachi]). Bearing this in mind, the Gospel of Matthew asserts that John the Baptizer was Elijah (11:14, 17:12). This claim, however, does not hold up to scrutiny. John the Baptizer was actually very popular, and some people even thought that he might be the Messiah. When he was asked if this was so, he denied it. He was then asked if he was Elijah the Prophet, and he said, “I am not” (John 1:21). In addition, the prophet Malachi prophesied that when Elijah returns, he would “restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers”, but there is no evidence that John the Baptizer fulfilled this.


    The Christian doctrine of Jesus’ “second coming” is an admission that he failed to fulfill these essential Messianic passages and will have to return in the future to do so
    . It is important to realize that the notion of a second coming can be used to rationalize the failure of any messianic candidate. The question then becomes why anyone should believe that person was the Messiah when they first came upon the scene? Christians have resorted to two basic ideas in order to promote the idea that Jesus qualified as Messiah 2000 years ago despite not having fulfilled the clear Biblical messianic criteria outlined above.

    One of these arguments is that the miracles that Jesus did attest to the fact that he must have been the Messiah. At this point, we will not discuss the historical credibility of the Gospel accounts. Suffice it to say, there are extremely strong grounds for doubting the veracity of these stories. Let’s assume, however, that it is possible that Jesus performed numerous miracles.
     
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  6. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Yahweh's servant, The King of Babylon and his army sieged Jerusalem:

    2 Kings 25:8 Now in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, which was the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, to Jerusalem. 9 He burnt the house of Yahweh, and the king's house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, even every great house, burnt he with fire.
    Jer 25:9
    ‘behold, I will send and take all the families of the north,' says the LORD, ‘and Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land, against its inhabitants, and against these nations all around, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, a hissing, and perpetual desolations.
    Jer 27:6
    ‘And now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant; and the beasts of the field I have also given him to serve him.
    Jeremiah 52:12 Now in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month, which was the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard, who stood before the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem: 13 and he burned the house of Yahweh, and the king's house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, even every great house, burned he with fire.
    ===================================.
    If the King of Babylon could be Yahweh's servant, why not Vespasian or Titus?

    Titus and His 10th legion camped on the Mount of Olives...........

    First, the verses from the MoO narrative:


    Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

    Matthew 24
    1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
    3 Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying.............
    6 “Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles...but not as yet the End<5056>
    Mark 13

    1 And He going forth out of the Temple,
    3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives overlooking the Temple,
    7 “Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and hearings of battles, .....but not as yet the End<5056>
    Luke 21

    5 and of some saying concerning the Temple,
    9 “Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
    but not immediately the End<5056>

    ======================

    Matthew 24 Mount of Olives and Titus's 10th Legion on Mt Olives 70ad

    https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html
    CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

    The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
    The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah...............
    The vial of divine wrath, which had been so long pouring out upon this devoted city was now emptying, and JERUSALEM, once "a praise in all the earth," and the subject of a thousand prophecies, deprived of' the staff of life, wrapt in flames, and bleeding on every side sunk into utter ruin and desolation.
    This memorable siege terminated on the eighth day of the ninth month, A. D. 70 : its duration was nearly five months,
    the Romans having invested the city on the fourteenth day of the fourth month, preceeding.

    APRIL, A.D. 70 - PHASE ONE
    THE ROMAN ARMY ARRIVES AT JERUSALEM TO PREPARE THE SIEGE

    The first night of Titus' encampment with the 15th, 3rd and 18th Legions, the 5th Legion arrived from Emmaus and set camp north of the city on Mount Scopus.
    Later the next day, the famed 10th Legion (founded by Julius Caesar) marched in from Jericho and camped on the Mount of Olives, east of the city.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    ========================================
    =========================================
    Just a little bit of what was happening up to the 70ad destruction of Jerusalem. This site as a plethora of maps and pictures portraying the action going on back then........
    =============================
    https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

    MARCH, A.D. 66 - JERUSALEM
    The Final Days of the Jewish Commonwealth ; Anarchy Erupts, and the Christians Flee

    Numerous signs, prodigies, and portents are seen in the land of Judaea at the outset of the rebellion. Included in those recorded by Josephus, armed hosts and chariots in the clouds are seen flying over all the land of Judaea; a light at night makes the temple appear as though it were on fire; Halley's Comet, in the appearance of a sword, flies over the region. NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory says that the closest approach of the comet that year was in March, immediately prior to the revolt.

    Christians seem to have associated this period with the warnings and admonitions of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24, because after the withdrawal of Gallus and the Battle of Beth-horon, a great number of people flee the city of Jerusalem, led by the Mother Church, which headed east over the Jordan River to safety in the area of Pella, Jordan.
    Early Christian settlements sprung up all over the Roman Decapolis Scythopolis [Bet She'an], Hippos [Susieh], Gadara [Umm Qais], Pella [Tabaqat Fahl], Philadelphia [Amman], Gerasa [Jerash], Dion [Adun], Kanatha [Kanawat], Damascus, and Raphana [Abila] . Today this region is within the Kingdom of Jordan and the Golan Heights. During the flight out of Palestine, a number of documents were apparently hidden in the Dead Sea area along the route -- DSS Caves 4 and 7-10 are of particular interest.
    ==============================
    MAY, A.D. 66 - JERUSALEM
    Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66

    The Factions in Jerusalem During the Roman Siege

    The Roman Procurator Florus demands 17 talents from the Jewish Temple treasury. This is the triggering insult for the Jews to begin their revolt. The Roman garrison in Jerusalem is overrun by rebels, who take control of the city. The rebels cause cessation of all sacrifices to the Roman Emperor, thus challenging Rome head-on
    Florus cannot handle the situation, so the (Roman) Syrian Governor, Cestius Gallus, is called in to subdue the rebellion. He attacks Jerusalem, gets up to the walls of the city, then unexpectedly withdraws, suffering heavy losses in retreat.
    ==============================
    A.D. 66-69 - GALILEE
    PROGRESS OF THE LEGIONS UNDER VESPASIAN

    After the humiliation of Gallus -- who subsequently died (some said of shame) -- Nero commands General Vespasian (Titus Flavius Vespasianus) to take over command of the Jewish War.
    While civil war rages in Jerusalem, Vespasian decides to give time for the infighting in the city to weaken the Jewish defense against his armies. He then proceeds to subdue Galilee with the aid of his son Titus. After a number of sieges and clashes, he succeeds in calming northern Judaea
    JOSEPHUS CAPTURED IN THE SIEGE OF JOTAPATA
    Jewish General Josephus in captured in siege of Jotapata. After a short imprisonment, he serves the Roman field marshals until the completion of the war. After the war, Josephus is adopted into the Flavian family, and he writes the definitive history of the Roman-Jewish War
    =====================================
    "THE YEAR OF THE FOUR EMPERORS"
    Four emperors possess the ultimate world power in Rome in quick succession during this unsettled period. The first is Nero (Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus), who ends the reign of the Julio-Claudian dynasty by committing suicide on June 9th, 68.
    His last words were "Qualis artifex Pereo" which is translated "what an artist dies in me"

    General Galba in Spain declares himself emperor while Nero is still alive, and takes power upon his arrival in Rome.
    In January, 69, Galba is murdered by Otho who proclaims himself emperor.
    On April 15th, Otho commits suicide and his rival, Vitellius becomes emperor. In June, Vespasian resumes operations in Judea.
    In July, Vespasian is proclaimed emperor by the army. He transfers command of the Jewish war to his son Titus and heads for Rome. On December 20th, 69, Vitellius is beheaded in Rome and Vespasian is installed as emperor there.
    =================================================
    A.D. 70 - JERUSALEM
    TITUS
    TAKES OVER WAR AND HEADS STRAIGHT TO JERUSALEM

    They will take away your turban and remove your crown; everything will be changed; the low will be high and the high brought low. To ruin, and to ruin on ruin, am I going to bring it, to such ruin as was never known before this man came who is appointed to inflict the punishment which I am determined to impose on it." (Ez.21:23-27).

    With Vespasian taking over the government of the Roman Empire, his son Titus Flavius Vespasianus (AD 9-79; Joint Emperor AD 69-79 ; Sole Emperor 79-81) takes over as field marshal of the Roman forces opposing the Jewish revolt. Titus and Tiberius Alexander, Prefect of Egypt, march to Caesarea from Alexandria, bringing with them reinforcements from the 18th and 3rd Augusta Legions. The 12th Legion marched down from Syria, and three thousand legionaries of the 23rd and/or 24th Legions marched west from the Euphrates. In April, 70, Titus led the 12th and 15th Legions and the 3rd Augusta and 18th Legion cohorts out of Caesarea towards Jerusalem. Upon arriving, he encamped on Mount Scopus, north of the city.
    ===============================
    APRIL, A.D. 70 - PHASE ONE
    THE ROMAN ARMY ARRIVES AT JERUSALEM TO PREPARE THE SIEGE

    The first night of Titus' encampment with the 15th, 3rd and 18th Legions, the 5th Legion arrived from Emmaus and set camp north of the city on Mount Scopus.
    Later the next day, the famed 10th Legion (founded by Julius Caesar) marched in from Jericho and camped on the Mount of Olives, east of the city.
    Instead of waiting to starve the Jews into submission, Titus decides to assault many different parts of the city and overwhelm the defenders. Titus was early on in the middle of the fighting with his soldiers. At least two times, Titus and his detachment are surrounded by defenders, only to escape unharmed.

    ‘Admirable as were the engines constructed by all the legions, those of the tenth were of peculiar excellence. Their scorpions were of greater power and their stone-projectors larger, and with these they not only kept in check the sallying parties, but those also on the ramparts. The stones that were thrown were of the weight of a talent, and had a range of two furlongs and more. The shock, not only to such as first met it, but even to those beyond them for a considerable distance, was irresistible. The Jews, however, at the first, could guard against the stone; for its approach was intimated, not only to the ear by its whiz, but also, being white, to the eye by its brightness. Accordingly they had watchmen posted on the towers, who gave warning when the engine was discharged and the stone projected, calling out in their native language, "The son is coming," on which those towards whom it was directed would separate, and lie down before it reached them. Thus it happened that, owing to these precautions, the stone fell harmless. It then occurred to the Romans to blacken it; when, taking a more successful aim, as it was no longer equally discernible in its approach, they swept down many at a single discharge.’ Josephus, Jewish Wars, bk. v. chap. vi. 3.
    ================================
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  7. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Your reasoning doesn't follow. You're using analogies to argue that an event isn't real. How does a man return if He is a man? Jesus is human flesh. And yes a Corporeal return is told in Scripture. The angels said to the disciples that Jesus would return in like manner as they saw Him go. They saw Him go as a flesh human man. We are also told that when He returns He would put His feet on the mount of Olives.

    Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
    3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Zech. 14:1-4 KJV)
     
  8. Jonathan Mathews

    Jonathan Mathews Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Christ will return in the same way He left
    Acts 1:11
    "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

    Jesus's Body was raised from the dead. His flesh and blood was transformed into His resurrected Eternal Body, He was taken up into the clouds as He was preaching to them (Acts 1:9). As they stared up into the clouds watching Him go up, 2 angels appeared and said He will return IN THE SAME way He left. That is, with the clouds, in His Resurrection Body.

    He will NOT return from "everywhere". Everyone will see Him and they will behold the One whom they pierced. (John 19:37) That is Christ in His Resurrected body. Everyone will see His Eternal Body which still bears the wounds of the Cross.

    Any other teaching than this is a false doctrine.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  9. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Correct, Jesus returns the same way he went INTO heaven. Notice they didn't see him go INTO heaven for a cloud had taken him out of sight.

    Acts 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.

    So how would Jesus come from heaven? OUT OF SIGHT in a cloud.
    Acts 1:11 This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

    This is consistent with the dead rising and those being caught up together IN THE CLOUDS to meet Jesus "in the air".
    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

    I would partially disagree. the body that Jesus was raised up in, the one the apostles saw, was the same body that died. The reason Christ was still in the same flesh, which had holes in his hands, feet, and side, PRIOR to ascending, was to fulfill scripture: that his flesh would not see decay:

    Acts 2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,or let your Holy One see corruption.

    I would argue that upon ascension, Christ returned to his full status in the Godhead, no longer humbled in human likeness.

    Philippians 2:7-8 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,c being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross

    Revelation 1:14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.

    Every eye will see him, because all will appear before the judgment seat of Christ.

    2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

    You'll have to take that up with John, as you appear to contradict him.

    1.) what we will be has not yet appeared
    2.) When he appears, we will be like him, and see him as he is.

    1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is
     
  10. Jonathan Mathews

    Jonathan Mathews Well-Known Member

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    No. He would come INTO sight FROM the clouds. He will be bodily revealed from the Eastern sky, they will see His pierced hands and feet and side, and He will come down out of the clouds, the same way He went up. He will come riding a white horse. He will touch down on the Mt. of Olives, and He will physically cast the AntiChrist and the False prophet into the Lake of Fire. Then He will rule for 1,000 years from Jerusalem.
     
  11. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Incorrect, scripture does not say that. The scripture says Jesus will come from heaven in the same way he went INTO heaven.


    Acts 1:11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

    How did Jesus go INTO heaven? Out of sight in a cloud. Thus he would return from heaven in the same way.

    Acts 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.

    This is consistent with the dead rising and those being caught up together IN THE CLOUDS to meet Jesus "in the air".
    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

    I cannot see a bird flying through the air over Jerusalem at this moment from the USA. How could I see Jesus coming down from heaven over Jerusalem?

    As Paul states all will appear before the judgment seat of Christ, thus all will see him


    2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad.

    This was fulfilled at the cross

    John 19:37 And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”

    Scripture doesn't say he will come out of the clouds the same way he went up.

    Scripture specifically states Jesus will come from heaven the same way he went INTO heaven.
     
  12. Jonathan Mathews

    Jonathan Mathews Well-Known Member

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    If Jesus Christ does NOT return bodily, as you claim, how is it that He comes riding a white horse? (Revelation 19:21) How is it that He stands with His FEET on the Mount of Olives? (Zechariah 14:4) You are teaching a FALSE return of Jesus Christ.
     
  13. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Jesus will return from heaven, the same way he entered heaven.

    Acts 1:11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

    Did Jesus go into heaven on a horse?


    Revelation 19:11 Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war.

    Does Jesus return with a literal sword that he holds in his mouth between his teeth? Does Jesus return literally swinging his head around with a literal sword in his mouth to kill people?

    Revelation 19:15 And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations

    This assumes your interpretation of a very controversial passage is correct, no?


    Did Jesus' feet not stand on the mount of Olives?

    Acts 1:9-12 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight. They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.” Then they returned to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives,

    This is a subjective statement. It's a generic cop out. Instead of addressing the scripture and arguments I make, you simply state I am teaching false doctrine. However, you have yet to produce any scripture to support your argument. Additionally, you yet have to appropriately counter the arguments I have made, thus I could say the same about you. But instead, let's stick to objective arguments.
     
  14. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    Acts 1

    Did the angels lie?

    After He had said this, He was taken up as they were watching, and a cloud took Him out of their sight. While He was going, they were gazing into heaven, and suddenly two men in white clothes stood by them. They said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up into heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come in the same way that you have seen Him going into heaven.
    Acts 1:9-11 - Bible Gateway passage: Acts 1:9-11 - Holman Christian Standard Bible
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
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