What is the Church's position on Creation/Evolution

[ArmyMatt]

Technically he was a doctor, but eh.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just not convinced of anything besides theistic evolution or possibly Old Earth Creationism. I have looked into Young Earth arguments with an open mind and simply wasn't convinced. Maybe it's my pretty strongly atheistic background I come from speaking, I don't know. I don't dwell on the issue anyway since it's not a matter of dogma. I mean, even my own priest is a theistic evolutionist I'm pretty sure.

and a medical doctor is a man of science.

I am not saying anyone needs to dwell on it, and I know plenty of devout Orthodox evolutionists, but when someone says it's a fringe group, or Protestant converts that just weren't catechized, that's simply untrue.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It is non-negotiable that...

We have First Parents
We were made in the image of God
We were created GOOD
We fell into sin
Death was a result of the Fall
Jesus Christ PERFECTLY became fully God and fully Man to perfect the fallen matrix of creation

Evolution presupposes hordes of primates became men through a cycle of birth and death. There would’ve been many first parents resembling Cornelius and Zira. So evolution is incompatible with death resulting from the sin of our parents.

Evolution presupposes man continues to evolve. If so, Jesus’s holy Incarnation was not perfect in that the Body He was born into was a link on an evolutionary chain. The Lord had to take human flesh and be perfectly human to cleanse and save us. If humans will continue to evolve, that mission by God was not accomplished.

Evolution is based on death and adaptation, reaction, change, etc.

Evolution causes us to make much of Genesis into allegory rather than salvation history.

The saints have spoken against it. The Fathers spoke of creation in terms of Creationism.

Incompatible....period. Secular humanism rearing it’s ugly head....

 

[ArmyMatt]

It is non-negotiable that...

We have First Parents
We were made in the image of God
We were created GOOD
We fell into sin
Death was a result of the Fall
Jesus Christ PERFECTLY became fully God and fully Man to perfect the fallen matrix of creation

Evolution presupposes hordes of primates became men through a cycle of birth and death. There would’ve been many first parents resembling Cornelius and Zira. So evolution is incompatible with death resulting from the sin of our parents.

Evolution presupposes man continues to evolve. If so, Jesus’s holy Incarnation was not perfect in that the Body He was born into was a link on an evolutionary chain. The Lord had to take human flesh and be perfectly human to cleanse and save us. If humans will continue to evolve, that mission by God was not accomplished.

Evolution is based on death and adaptation, reaction, change, etc.

Evolution causes us to make much of Genesis into allegory rather than salvation history.

The saints have spoken against it. The Fathers spoke of creation in terms of Creationism.

Incompatible....period. Secular humanism rearing it’s ugly head....

Fr Victor Gorodenchuk, who studied physics at the MIT of Russia, actually used science to show that evolution and old earth are simply conclusions based on assumptions that really can't be proven.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Jay Dyer is not even Orthodox and should be avoided.

While I think race-realism is absolute cancer, as are many proponents of the alt-right (which is often used ambiguously like the word "terrorist"), Jay Dyer is an official member of the Orthodox Church.

 

[MariaJLM]

While I think race-realism is absolute cancer, as are many proponents of the alt-right (which is often used ambiguously like the word "terrorist"), Jay Dyer is an official member of the Orthodox Church.

He is the type of person we could do without in the church. I hope he repents of his racism and anti-semitism.

 

[ArmyMatt]

not to derail, but who is he?

 

[Anhelyna]

I've just done the usual Google - and I have to admit my eyebrows have been raised

 

[MariaJLM]

not to derail, but who is he?

Social media personality mostly. I used to know him on Facebook, but eventually he unfriended me because I called him out on his tendency to fall into conspiracy theories, anti-semitism, and racism.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Social media personality mostly. I used to know him on Facebook, but eventually he unfriended me because I called him out on his tendency to fall into conspiracy theories, anti-semitism, and racism.

ugh, Lord have mercy

 

[gzt]

While I think race-realism is absolute cancer, as are many proponents of the alt-right (which is often used ambiguously like the word "terrorist"), Jay Dyer is an official member of the Orthodox Church.

Not going to watch a 38 minute video - at which point in there does he say he's been received into the Church?

 

[Platina]

While Jay may have some problematic ideas, I dare say, EVERY type of person is the person we need in the Church.

 

[MariaJLM]

While Jay may have some problematic ideas, I dare say, EVERY type of person is the person we need in the Church.

Only if he repents and is willing to live a Christian life. We have a big enough problem already in the church with alt-right converts coming in and spreading questionable views that simply do not belong.

 

[mark kennedy]

An alt-right guy vs. Orthodox Christian

The church's position like the Scriptures has always been God created life. If not what does that say about God's promise of eternal life, if God didn't create life in the first place? What does that say about original sin if Adam and Eve are not our first parents? So many questions, such easy answers.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Platina]

Only if he repents and is willing to live a Christian life. We have a big enough problem already in the church with alt-right converts coming in and spreading questionable views that simply do not belong.

Of course repentance is a prerequisite, but it's also an ongoing process. I don't think we really require someone to have perfectly Orthodox beliefs in everything before bringing them in. We have people running around in the Church who have been Orthodox for decades and are still clueless about what the Church teaches. But if we want him to change, what better way than to get him in the Church and let God start working on him?

I mean, we have people in the Church who are wildly blowing the "alt-right" problem in the Church way out of proportion and using that as a pretext to try to run people, including clergy, out of the Church. These people are far more problematic, but they're certainly not going to get any better if we drive them out, as they're trying to do to others.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

If you mean literalists about Genesis, yes, there are many. Very many. The saints, including 20th centuries, are literalists.

But, "literalists" is not the full truth - you don't have to choose literal OR symbolic - Scripture is deep enough to harmonize multiple layers. The problem comes when you want to jettison one of these layers.

Litera gesta docet, Quid credas allegoria,
Moralis quid agas, Quo tendas anagogia.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Of course repentance is a prerequisite, but it's also an ongoing process. I don't think we really require someone to have perfectly Orthodox beliefs in everything before bringing them in. We have people running around in the Church who have been Orthodox for decades and are still clueless about what the Church teaches. But if we want him to change, what better way than to get him in the Church and let God start working on him?

I mean, we have people in the Church who are wildly blowing the "alt-right" problem in the Church way out of proportion and using that as a pretext to try to run people, including clergy, out of the Church. These people are far more problematic, but they're certainly not going to get any better if we drive them out, as they're trying to do to others.

that is a good point. I mean, Br Nathaniel was Orthodox, then became all crazy, but then got medication and repented, and has been a quiet, simple monk ever since (at least to my knowledge).

 

[gzt]

that is a good point. I mean, Br Nathaniel was Orthodox, then became all crazy, but then got medication and repented, and has been a quiet, simple monk ever since (at least to my knowledge).

The key there, of course, repentance and living as a quiet, simple monk.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The key there, of course, repentance and living as a quiet, simple monk.

you're absolutely right, and I cringe when I hear crazy conspiracy theories attached to the Church, but my point is that road to repentance has to begin somewhere.

 

[MariaJLM]

that is a good point. I mean, Br Nathaniel was Orthodox, then became all crazy, but then got medication and repented, and has been a quiet, simple monk ever since (at least to my knowledge).

I thought he was still making videos?

 

[gzt]

And I do want to point out that I agree that the place for people who are horribly, horribly wrong is within the Church where they can be corrected and grow and learn - it is unfortunate in some sense that people like Matthew Heimbach and the defrocked Matthew Raphael Johnson (who has appeared on Jay Dyer's show, by the way, and regularly comments on his facebook posts, for what little that means) have left the church after their discipline rather than repenting.