Revelation 12: what do the 3.5 years represent?

iamlamad

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The two witnesses come onto the scene slightly before Rev 13:1 so they are most definitely not active in any part of Rev 12.

Why not just follow John? You can't go wrong of you follow scripture!

The truth is, the two witnesses show up JUST BEFORE the midpoint of the week. WHY THEN? Because the man of sin will enter Jerusalem then. You find that in the first three verses of Rev. 11.
 
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iamlamad

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The 7th trump doesn't sound until after the trib which is found at the end of Rev 11, which is long after the events of Rev 12. Rev 13 shows the beginning of the trib, Rev 11 showing the end of the trib and the return of Christ at 7th trump.

This is just mixed up words making nonsense out of good scripture.
The "end" of the trib does not come until the 7th vial. How could you be so far off?
 
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iamlamad

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Jesus was caught up to God and to His Throne, received his Kingdom and given authority - 2000 years ago.
This is truth! But at that time it was a spiritual kingdom in the hearts of believers. In Rev. 12 He gets the physical kingdoms of the world. They are taken from Satan and given to Jesus.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Revelation 12

Good post. But it is not in chronological order. Here is my take on Revelation 12

Rev 12:1-4
(1) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(2) And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
(3) And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
(4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The woman here symbolizes the Congregation of God (Covenant Israel). The sun that this woman is clothed in is symbolic of the righteousness of Christ. The moon under her feet is again symbolic of the light directing her steps so she sees where she is going that she will not stumble in darkness. The moon is the reflected light from the Sun to guide us in darkness, John 11:1-10. The stars represent the messengers or servants of this congregation Israel. They are the children of God, both saved and unsaved. Because when Christ dwells within them, they take on the responsibility to bring the light of the Lord to the World. The 12 stars are representing the messengers of the congregation of Israel. The number 12 in Scripture often specifically identifies with the Lord's congregation. The Dragon, of course, is Satan. His tail is used as a synonym for false prophets who come to hurt and deceive the CHildren of God so they will come under the authority of Satan. That is why it cast down the third of Woman's 12 stars to signify deceived the Jewish leaders to come under Satan's influence, power, and authority, even when they claim to be the servants of God. They are responsible for bringing apostasy to the Old Testament Congregation in the days of Christ. They are the ones whom Christ will wage war with during his ministry. More on that later.

Israel was the representative of God's congregation before Messiah came, but her representation was taken from her and gave to the Church AFTER the Cross and Messiah's ascension to the Throne. The heaven here is symbolizing the Kingdom of Heaven where the WOMAN (congregation) dwells. It is the same place where Satan was among the sons of God (Elect) when Job was tested ON EARTH. Satan did NOT go up and appear before God in third heaven as most belief. Satan was still on earth, among people within God's congregation as an accuser of His people.

Rev 12:5-6
(5) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Jesus Christ was born, did his ministry, and caught up to His Throne. After the Cross, the woman no longer represented Israel, but the Church, who has fled into the wilderness. The wilderness represents the world without water of Gospel. God has prepared the World for the church to grow and fed with Gospel, safe from Satan's harm. We need to look at the wilderness of Exodus as a type of Church's journey in the world.

The 1,260 days represents the ministry of the Church in the world as long as God is saving people through the testimony of Two Witnesses which is why their ministry lasted the same 1,260 days. The Two Witnesses are the Elect that God empowered them with Gospel.

Continue on verse 7-11 later, Lord willing.
 
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iamlamad

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Ad70 events have nothing to do with Rev 12 and 13 and the Tribulation found in Rev 13.
Actually, the "trib" or the 70th week will begin at the 7th seal and continue on to the 7th vial. However, some of what happens then is certianly listed in chapter 13.
 
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Douggg

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Yes, that is the meaning of the word Eisegesis.

Eisegesis | CARM.org

"Eisegesis is when a person interprets and reads information into the text that is not there."
You are leaving out - so the meaning of the text changes from what it originally was


10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Which of those are you claiming I have changed meaning of?

salvation ?
strength ?
the kingdom of our God ?
the power of his Christ ?

They are not changed. If I were doing eisegesis, I would be redefining those with different ideas. But I am not doing that. They are the same for the Jews (Israel) as they are for us (who are the church).

It is the timing when Israel receives those - is in the middle of the 7 years. That's why it says "Now is come" in the text.

Chapter 12 is the 7 years relevant to Israel.
 
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iamlamad

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Good post. But it is not in chronological order. Here is my take on Revelation 12

Rev 12:1-4
(1) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
(2) And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
(3) And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
(4) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The woman here symbolizes the Congregation of God (Covenant Israel). The sun that this woman is clothed in is symbolic of the righteousness of Christ. The moon under her feet is again symbolic of the light directing her steps so she sees where she is going that she will not stumble in darkness. The moon is the reflected light from the Sun to guide us in darkness, John 11:1-10. The stars represent the messengers or servants of this congregation Israel. They are the children of God, both saved and unsaved. Because when Christ dwells within them, they take on the responsibility to bring the light of the Lord to the World. The 12 stars are representing the messengers of the congregation of Israel. The number 12 in Scripture often specifically identifies with the Lord's congregation. The Dragon, of course, is Satan. His tail is used as a synonym for false prophets who come to hurt and deceive the CHildren of God so they will come under the authority of Satan. That is why it cast down the third of Woman's 12 stars to signify deceived the Jewish leaders to come under Satan's influence, power, and authority, even when they claim to be the servants of God. They are responsible for bringing apostasy to the Old Testament Congregation in the days of Christ. They are the ones whom Christ will wage war with during his ministry. More on that later.

Israel was the representative of God's congregation before Messiah came, but her representation was taken from her and gave to the Church AFTER the Cross and Messiah's ascension to the Throne. The heaven here is symbolizing the Kingdom of Heaven where the WOMAN (congregation) dwells. It is the same place where Satan was among the sons of God (Elect) when Job was tested ON EARTH. Satan did NOT go up and appear before God in third heaven as most belief. Satan was still on earth, among people within God's congregation as an accuser of His people.

Rev 12:5-6
(5) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Jesus Christ was born, did his ministry, and caught up to His Throne. After the Cross, the woman no longer represented Israel, but the Church, who has fled into the wilderness. The wilderness represents the world without water of Gospel. God has prepared the World for the church to grow and fed with Gospel, safe from Satan's harm. We need to look at the wilderness of Exodus as a type of Church's journey in the world.

The 1,260 days represents the ministry of the Church in the world as long as God is saving people through the testimony of Two Witnesses which is why their ministry lasted the same 1,260 days. The Two Witnesses are the Elect that God empowered them with Gospel.

Continue to verse 7-11 next.
Why do you just make stuff up rather than say what is written?
Jesus said it will be those living in Judea who flee. Do YOU live there? No, JEWS live there. That is why God called those who will flee "the woman." It is the same "woman" from whom the Messiah came.

The "wilderness" is wilderness: a place with no roads or very few roads. It is where those in Judea will fllee to. It therefore represents WILDERNESS.
The 1260 days represents - you guessed it - 1260 days or the last half of the 70th week given in days.
 
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ewq1938

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You are leaving out - so the meaning of the text changes from what it originally was


It's time to move forward from this but anytime something not in the text is claimed to be in or part of said text then the overall meaning is being changed. So, lastly, what you said about that verse is added by you and does not appear in the verse nor even the entire passage. Just stick to what the text says, with no additions and you will be fine.
 
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Douggg

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Douggg is using imagination, but EWQ is misinterpreting everything. Both are mistaken.

The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. How in the world can you imagine something in chapter 11 - a midpoint chapter - is "after the trib" When the trib began with the 7th seal?

You don't know what is shortened, but you must write something - so you write something, and it is wrong. It will be the DAYS of GT that are shortened. I don't mean a 24 hour day shortened to 20 hours, I means the number of days where GT takes place shortened. The 1260 days is written in stone, so to speak, being God's word, so it will never change. Same with the 42 months. It will not change.

Get the picture: during the last 1260 days there will be days where GT is taking place, the murder of all who will not bow to the image or take the mark. As Jesus said, those are days of GT. But one day during the last 1260 days, God will pour out the vials of His wrath, and the armies of the Beast will be stopped in their tracks. there will be no more murder from the Beast. The days of GT will be over. Therefore, they will not continue through the entire 1260 days. So God said they were shortened.

You have thoroughly mixed up Revelation and your theories will be proven wrong.

In short, your Eisegesis is worse than Douggg's!
Except those days be shortened - is meaning the great tribulation will not be allowed to continue till all of life on planet earth is destroyed. The length of the great tribulation will be cut short of destroying all life on the planet.
 
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ewq1938

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Except those days be shortened - is meaning the great tribulation will not be allowed to continue till all of life on planet earth is destroyed. The length of the great tribulation will be cut short of destroying all life on the planet.

Except in your version the trib remains the same exact length, not shortened at all which is not what Christ said. If it was to be 7 years and then was shortened means it isn't 7 years long anymore. What we find is the trib will be 42 months, so half what it originally was going to be.
 
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Douggg

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It's time to move forward from this but anytime something not in the text is claimed to be in or part of said text then the overall meaning is being changed. So, lastly, what you said about that verse is added by you and does not appear in the verse nor even the entire passage. Just stick to what the text says, with no additions and you will be fine.
When I change the definition of the words and concepts - let me know.

How about the 7 kings in Revelation 17 - are those 7 kings or kingdoms? When people say 7 kingdoms or 7 kings of 7 kingdoms - that is changing what the text says, inserting their own ideas, eisegesis.

In Daniel 9:27, when people say peace plan instead of covenant - that is eisegesis. It is the Mt. Sinai covenant.
 
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DaDad

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Except those days be shortened - is meaning the great tribulation will not be allowed to continue till all of life on planet earth is destroyed. The length of the great tribulation will be cut short of destroying all life on the planet.
Absolutely correct. Thus:
Matt. 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Thanks,
DaDad
 
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TribulationSigns

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Why do you just make stuff up rather than say what is written?

I do not make up. It appears foolish to natural man who has a carnal mind. The woman spiritually "IS" the Congregation of God (Covenant Israel) which the Jews were the people of the congregation in the Old Testament period.

Jesus said it will be those living in Judea who flee. Do YOU live there? No, JEWS live there. That is why God called those who will flee "the woman." It is the same "woman" from whom the Messiah came.

Huh? I think you got fleeing in Matthew 24 and Revelation 12 confused.

The "wilderness" is a wilderness: a place with no roads or very few roads. It is where those in Judea will fllee to. It therefore represents WILDERNESS.

I can see that you have a carnal mind. Tell me... was the woman literally floating in heaven with sun for a clothing? Where was the woman when child was born? In space? Or on Earth in front of huge T-Rex? Come on, your carnal interpretation is absurd. So no, it is not a literal wilderness that John wrote about!

The 1260 days represents - you guessed it - 1260 days or the last half of the 70th week given in days.

Try to stop digging yourself into a bigger hole. We are not discussing 70 week and its relationship with 1,260 days. You are already confused with the heaven and woman to begin with anyway. You need to take a deep breath. Maybe I should create a chart to clear some things up...IF you have spiritual discernment!
 
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Douggg

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Except in your version the trib remains the same exact length, not shortened at all which is not what Christ said. If it was to be 7 years and then was shortened means it isn't 7 years long anymore. What we find is the trib will be 42 months, so half what it originally was going to be.
ewq - you don't hear me saying trib or tribulation. Jesus did not say the great tribulation would be shortened as in the number of days reduced from what was originally intended in Daniel 12. The great tribulation will be 1335 days long.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Absolutely correct. Thus:
Matt. 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Thanks,
DaDad

Really? Now tell me who "were those standing here" that actually witnessed the Son of man coming with his Kingdom? When was that? It will be interesting to know how you answer this biblically!
 
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Douggg

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Absolutely correct. Thus:
Matt. 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Thanks,
DaDad
That particular verse refers to the disciples that saw Jesus ascend into the cloud out of their sight to heaven, in Acts 1.
In the heaven dimension - him arriving is in Daniel 7:

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
 
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ewq1938

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ewq - you don't hear me saying trib or tribulation. Jesus did not say the great tribulation would be shortened as in the number of day reduced from what was originally intended in Daniel 12. The great tribulation will be 1335 days long.

Nope.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar_13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.


This means the original length of the trib was shortened just like having a 100ft rope and cutting it in half to make it shorter. Being shortened cannot and does not mean it's still the same length as you claim.
 
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Douggg

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Nope.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar_13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.


This means the original length of the trib was shortened just like having a 100ft rope and cutting it in half to make it shorter. Being shortened cannot and does not mean it's still the same length as you claim.
You are not understanding. You are thinking shortened timewise - as the number of days, itself will be shortened, fewer days. But what it is meaning is shortened of what would otherwise be the end results or consequences. The original length of 1335 days will be less than what it takes for the whole world to become lifeless. Being shortened of complete destruction of the world - has already been built into the timeframe. Jesus is not going to let the world be destroyed.
 
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