Revelation 12: what do the 3.5 years represent?

[ewq1938]

I was trying to be diplomatic.... don't take it too hard.

Same to you.

 

[DaDad]

That particular verse refers to the disciples that saw Jesus ascend into the cloud out of their sight to heaven, in Acts 1.

Ummmmmm, it actually is reference that mankind will not be destroyed (or destroy itself), and that life on earth will continue until Jesus returns.

Of course the days will have to be shortened in order for mankind to NOT destroy itself ...

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[friend of]

I can definitely envision the Beast attempti g to destroy the world with nuclear weapons after marking humanity with MotB to a limit.

 

[FatalHeart]

Revelation 12 in chronological order:

Israel gives rise to the messiah; Jesus then ascends to heaven
Revelation 12:1-5 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rulea all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

After Jesus is caught up to God and to his throne, receives his kingdom, and is given authority, Satan is thrown down out of heaven. The dragon then pursues the woman (Israel)
Revelation 12:7-13 7Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothersb has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”13And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

Israel is nourished for 3.5 years after Christ is caught up to God. Satan, furious of this, goes off to make war with Israel's offspring.
Revelation 12:6,14-17 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

What is the significance of this 3.5 years?

I apologize for this but un-serious reply but, the answer is your mother.

 

[Dave L]

Revelation 12 in chronological order:

Israel gives rise to the messiah; Jesus then ascends to heaven
Revelation 12:1-5 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rulea all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

After Jesus is caught up to God and to his throne, receives his kingdom, and is given authority, Satan is thrown down out of heaven. The dragon then pursues the woman (Israel)
Revelation 12:7-13 7Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothersb has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”13And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

Israel is nourished for 3.5 years after Christ is caught up to God. Satan, furious of this, goes off to make war with Israel's offspring.
Revelation 12:6,14-17 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

What is the significance of this 3.5 years?

"The number three and a half was associated by Christians and Jews with times of evil and judgment (see Luke 4:25)."

Dockery, D. S. (Ed.). (1992). Holman Bible Handbook (p. 800). Nashville, TN: Holman Bible Publishers.

Also they crucified Jesus in the middle of Daniel's 70th week.

 

[claninja]

Is there any reason why it can't be both (this is new to me so I have a LOT more reading to do on it in order to get my timeline straight)?

Jesus predicts Satan being "cast out" and also "coming" when he (jesus) dies, rises, and ascends:
John 12:31 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
John 14:30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me.

When Jesus ascends, he is placed above all power, authority, and dominion.
Ephesians 1:20-21 which He exerted in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come.

These verses quoted above, perfectly reflect revelation 12 where Satan is thrown down and comes to earth upon Jesus's ascension to receive authority and a kingdom
Revelation 12:5,10, 12 and her child was caught up to God and to His throne Now have come the salvation and the power and, the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, he who accuses them day and night before our God.
But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you,

As soon as Jesus is caught up to heaven, the woman flees into the wilderness where she is nourished for 3.5 years
Revelation 12:5-6,13-14 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. The woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days. And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

So I would argue that these 3.5 years specifically occur right after Jesus ascends. During these 3.5 years, the woman is pursued/persecuted, but no harm comes to her.

but didn't this time also begin great persecution on the church (when Saul was persecuting the church)? Most timelines pertaining to Paul that I've seen show him -personally- persecuting the church from 30 A.D. to his conversion in about 34 A.D. But,

Not much persecution actually happens after Jesus ascends. Acts 5 is the first mention of persecution. The Sanhedrin wanted to put the disciples to death, but a member of the Pharisees (gamaliel) stopped it and was able to convince the Sanhedrin to let the disciples go (with just a little flogging).

It wasn't until Acts 7 (stoning of Stephen) where the 1st death due to persecution is recorded. Coincidentally, tradition has it that steven died in 34 ad. This would have been around 3.5 years after Jesus ascended.

Therefore, I would argue that the 3.5 years of the woman being nourished, is the 3.5 years post Jesus ascension and prior to stephen's death where the gospel goes specifically to Israel. During these 3.5 years they are protected from severe persecution.

 

[claninja]

But, like ewq1938 said (if I'm understanding correctly), the REAL persecuting can probably better be defined as what happened in 66-70 A.D.

I would agree. Which also occurs later according to scripture:

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 13:5-7
The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. And the beast opened its mouth to blaspheme against God and slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven. Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them,

 

[claninja]

Jesus was caught up to God and to His Throne, received his Kingdom and given authority - 2000 years ago.

I agree

Then in the end times, the 1260 days of the 7 years take place in Revelation 12:6, the first half of the seven years.

So the woman didn't flee right after Jesus was caught up. She flee's 2000+ years later? I disagree, scripture states the woman flees and is nourished for 3.5 years right after her child is caught up to God:

Revelation 12:5-7 5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter;a and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6The woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days.

No, you have the timing of Jesus caught up to heaven wrong in relation to Israel being nourished the 1260 days. The 1260 days is end times. Jesus being caught up to heaven was first century.

No, scripture states the woman flees and is nourished for 1260 days after her child is caught up.

firs century:
Revelation 12:5 Jesus caught up to heaven

I agree

Revelation 12:7-9, the 7th trumpet sounds, the war in the (second) heaven - Satan and angels cast down to earth, Babylon is fallen is fallen.

Satan is cast down when Jesus ascends to heaven
John 12:31-32 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Satan comes when Jesus goes to the Father
John 14:28-30
You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it happens, so that when it does happen, you will believe. I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me.

You even agreed that Jesus ascended to his kingdom 2000 years ago. Notice that scripture states NOW the kingdom and authority of Christ have come, when satan is hurled to earth:
Revelation 12:9-10 He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: “NOW have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ.

 

[claninja]

The number three and a half was associated by Christians and Jews with times of evil and judgment (see Luke 4:25)."

Interesting, but the woman is nourished and protected from satan for 1260 days, not judged

 

[Douggg]

So the woman didn't flee right after Jesus was caught up. She flee's 2000+ years later? I disagree, scripture states the woman flees and is nourished for 3.5 years right after her child is caught up to God:

Revelation 12:5-7 5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter;a and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6The woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days.

The first five verses of Revelation 12 are to identify the woman in the rest of the chapter as Israel.

After Jesus was caught up to Heaven and God's Throne, 40 years later, thereabouts, 70 AD took place and
in the following years, Israel went captive into the nations. That part is not included in the text of Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:6 is after the woman is back in the land, and the Antichrist has confirmed the covenant for 7 years.

Revelation 12:6 refers to what happens during the first half of the seven years
Revelation 12:7-9 is the war in heaven that takes place immediately following the woman fleeing into the wilderness, when the AoD is setup near the end of the firs half.
Revelaton 12:10-17 is ~ the second half of the seven years

 

[Douggg]

Satan is cast down when Jesus ascends to heaven
John 12:31-32 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Satan "will be" cast out. What happened when Jesus died for the sins of mankind, going forward it makes it possible for God to destroy Satan for his sins - without have to destroy all of humanity for our sins as well. We are spared by the blood of Christ.

claninja, I would suggest looking at the great tribulation in a different light. It is God's prosecution of Satan to destroy him and his kingdom of mystery Babylon the Great. That's why the war in (the second) heaven, by Michael and his angels on Satan and his angels (a third of the angels) casting them down to earth, for ~ the second half of the seven years. God is taking away Satan's dominion over the earth and the nations, dismantling his kingdom during that time.

 

[Douggg]

You even agreed that Jesus ascended to his kingdom 2000 years ago. Notice that scripture states NOW the kingdom and authority of Christ have come, when satan is hurled to earth:
Revelation 12:9-10 He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: “NOW have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ.

Go to Daniel 12:1, this is the Revelation 12:7-9, Michael and his angels fighting against Satan and his angels in the end times

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Once Satan and his angels are cast down, they have a time times half time left in Revelation 12:14, which Satan goes after the woman.

Now look at what it says in Daniel 12:7. Same expression of time of trouble!

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

This is end times. Because the words in Daniel 12 (in Daniel 12:4) are sealed until time of the end.

 

[eleos1954]

Isn't it the time of the Great Tribulation?

Also.....doesn't it mark the "end of the age" (the Old Covenant/Temple Age)?

Quoting Doug Beaumont-------->The Sealed Scroll - Coincidence???

Starting from Jesus' words in the Olivett Discourse (Mt. 24, Lk. 21, Mk.13) we can see that the events spoken of refer to the same events in Daniel (Mt. 24:15). Once we have carefully laid out the order of these events in the Olivett Discourse, we can also see that they very closely parallel Jesus' words in Revelation 6. What is interesting is that at the end of Daniel where he asks about the Great Tribulation (Dan. 12:1,6), he is told to seal up his book (12:4,9) because it relates to events at the time of the end.

Note how Revelation 6 opens up - the unsealing of a scroll! Could this be the very scroll Daniel was told to seal? Now, if Daniel is writing about the Great Tribulation (during the time of the end), and Jesus identifies this time with the events of the Olivett Discourse (at the end of the age), and these parallel Revelation 6 - should they not tell the same story? As we see, they do.

Coming Soon

If these things are so, what does it mean when John is told these things are about to take place (Rev. 1:1 and 22:10, 22)? Note that John is told in verse 22 that he is NOT to seal up his book (for the time was near). This is the exact opposite of Daniel's admonition TO seal his book (for the time was apparently still far in the future). Consider this: John wrote Revelation in the 1st Century A.D. If Daniel wrote around 550 B.C. (when "the end" was still far off), and John wrote about the same events less than than 600 years after Daniel (when "the time" was near), how could we still be looking for fulfillment 2,000 years later?

The End - of what?

Daniel was specifically told that "the end" would come when the "power of the holy people [the Jews]" was shattered. The power of the Jews was shattered in 70 A.D. at the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem . . . and it was this very destruction that Jesus was speaking of in the Olivett Discourse (Mt.23:38-24:4).

Matthew records that Jesus said the end would come after the Gospel had been preached in the whole world. It would seem that this could not have happened by 70 A.D. But as Paul shows in Colossians 1:5-6, 23 and Romans 10:18 it had in fact gone into the whole world ("the world" was synonymous with the Roman Empire - see Acts 11:28; 17:6).

"The End" was the end of the Old Covenant. The "end times" (or "last days") were the transition period that lasted about 40 years starting from the time of Christ and extending one generation (Mt. 24:34) to 70 A.D. Just as the Old Covenant was established after a 40 year transition time (from Egypt to the Promised Land), so was the New established in a 40 year transition out of spiritual Egypt (1 Cor. 10:1-6; Gal 4:21-31; Heb. 4:9; Rev. 11:8 & 19).

Conclusion

If these things are so then Daniel, John, and Jesus are referring to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem with regard to the Great Tribulation and the Day of The Lord judgment that the Jews incurred when they rejected Messiah (Mt. 23:36-39). If this is true then, of course, the Great Tribulation is over.​

revelation isn't in chronological order

 

[Dave L]

Interesting, but the woman is nourished and protected from satan for 1260 days, not judged

Interesting, but the woman is nourished and protected from satan for 1260 days, not judged

Times of evil = tribulation and persecution. Revelation mentions the 3.5 years in different formats. If you locate these, all events revolving around them take place simultaneously in the same time-frame.

 

[mkgal1]

Therefore, I would argue that the 3.5 years of the woman being nourished, is the 3.5 years post Jesus ascension and prior to stephen's death where the gospel goes specifically to Israel. During these 3.5 years they are protected from severe persecution.

I absolutely agree.

It wasn't until Acts 7 (stoning of Stephen) where the 1st death due to persecution is recorded. Coincidentally, tradition has it that steven died in 34 ad. This would have been around 3.5 years after Jesus ascended.

For some reason, I had my timeline jumbled with Saul persecuting the church prior to Stephen's death.....but you're right and Acts 8 confirms that:

Acts 8:1-3 ~
And Saul approved of their killing him [Stephen].

Saul Persecutes the Church
That day a severe persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout the countryside of Judea and Samaria. 2 Devout men buried Stephen and made loud lamentation over him. 3 But Saul was ravaging the church by entering house after house; dragging off both men and women, he committed them to prison.​

 

[claninja]

The first five verses of Revelation 12 are to identify the woman in the rest of the chapter as Israel.

I agree

Revelation 12:6 is after the woman is back in the land, and the Antichrist has confirmed the covenant for 7 years.

I disagree, as verse 6 states AND. There is no Gap, when Jesus ascends, the woman flees into the wilderness.

She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rulea all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, AND the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

Satan "will be" cast out. What happened when Jesus died for the sins of mankind, going forward it makes it possible for God to destroy Satan for his sins - without have to destroy all of humanity for our sins as well. We are spared by the blood of Christ.

NOW the ruler will be cast out, specifically when Jesus is lifted up from earth:
John 12:31-32 Now is the judgment of this world; NOW will the ruler of this world be cast out and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Again, we know Jesus is specifically talking about his ascension because of the very next verse:
john 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

If I told you: "Now, I will go to the store", does that mean 2000+ years later I will go to the store? No, of course not. Jesus explicitly states the ruler will be cast out and he associates it with his death and ascension.

Once Satan and his angels are cast down, they have a time times half time left in Revelation 12:14, which Satan goes after the woman.

According to revelation 12, time, times, and half time or 1260 days is associated with nourishing Israel. Not how much time Satan has left.

Revelation 12:6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.
Revelation 12:14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

Now look at what it says in Daniel 12:7. Same expression of time of trouble!

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Israel is nourished and protected from satan's wrath during the time, times, and half. There is no great tribulation during this period mentioned in Revelation 12. There is tribulation however, during the 42 months of the beast:

Revelation 13:7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them

Revelation 12:7-9 is the war in heaven that takes place immediately following the woman fleeing into the wilderness, when the AoD is setup near the end of the firs half.

Incorrect, it takes place before the woman flees. Revelation 12:6 is equal to Revelation 12:14

 

[claninja]

Revelation mentions the 3.5 years in different formats.

I agree that it can, but in revelation 12, Israel is nourished and protected for 3.5 years

 

[Dave L]

I agree that it can, but in revelation 12, Israel is nourished and protected for 3.5 years

Israel = Church.

 

[claninja]

Israel = Church.

I agree, but in the first 3.5 years following Christ's ascension, that Church was made up of ethnic Israelites (jews), and not gentiles. It wasn't until after these 3.5 years that gentiles were grafted into true Israel (the church)

 

[Dave L]

I agree, but in the first 3.5 years following Christ's ascension, that Church was made up of ethnic Israelites (jews), and not gentiles. It wasn't until after these 3.5 years that gentiles were grafted into true Israel (the church)

But Israel proper was always the church, even in the OT.