Revelation 12: what do the 3.5 years represent?

[claninja]

Revelation 12 in chronological order:

Israel gives rise to the messiah; Jesus then ascends to heaven
Revelation 12:1-5 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rulea all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

After Jesus is caught up to God and to his throne, receives his kingdom, and is given authority, Satan is thrown down out of heaven. The dragon then pursues the woman (Israel)
Revelation 12:7-13 7Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothersb has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”13And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

Israel is nourished for 3.5 years after Christ is caught up to God. Satan, furious of this, goes off to make war with Israel's offspring.
Revelation 12:6,14-17 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

What is the significance of this 3.5 years?

 

[mkgal1]

What is the significance of this 3.5 years?

Isn't it the time of the Great Tribulation?

Also.....doesn't it mark the "end of the age" (the Old Covenant/Temple Age)?

Quoting Doug Beaumont-------->The Sealed Scroll - Coincidence???

Starting from Jesus' words in the Olivett Discourse (Mt. 24, Lk. 21, Mk.13) we can see that the events spoken of refer to the same events in Daniel (Mt. 24:15). Once we have carefully laid out the order of these events in the Olivett Discourse, we can also see that they very closely parallel Jesus' words in Revelation 6. What is interesting is that at the end of Daniel where he asks about the Great Tribulation (Dan. 12:1,6), he is told to seal up his book (12:4,9) because it relates to events at the time of the end.

Note how Revelation 6 opens up - the unsealing of a scroll! Could this be the very scroll Daniel was told to seal? Now, if Daniel is writing about the Great Tribulation (during the time of the end), and Jesus identifies this time with the events of the Olivett Discourse (at the end of the age), and these parallel Revelation 6 - should they not tell the same story? As we see, they do.

Coming Soon

If these things are so, what does it mean when John is told these things are about to take place (Rev. 1:1 and 22:10, 22)? Note that John is told in verse 22 that he is NOT to seal up his book (for the time was near). This is the exact opposite of Daniel's admonition TO seal his book (for the time was apparently still far in the future). Consider this: John wrote Revelation in the 1st Century A.D. If Daniel wrote around 550 B.C. (when "the end" was still far off), and John wrote about the same events less than than 600 years after Daniel (when "the time" was near), how could we still be looking for fulfillment 2,000 years later?

The End - of what?

Daniel was specifically told that "the end" would come when the "power of the holy people [the Jews]" was shattered. The power of the Jews was shattered in 70 A.D. at the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem . . . and it was this very destruction that Jesus was speaking of in the Olivett Discourse (Mt.23:38-24:4).

Matthew records that Jesus said the end would come after the Gospel had been preached in the whole world. It would seem that this could not have happened by 70 A.D. But as Paul shows in Colossians 1:5-6, 23 and Romans 10:18 it had in fact gone into the whole world ("the world" was synonymous with the Roman Empire - see Acts 11:28; 17:6).

"The End" was the end of the Old Covenant. The "end times" (or "last days") were the transition period that lasted about 40 years starting from the time of Christ and extending one generation (Mt. 24:34) to 70 A.D. Just as the Old Covenant was established after a 40 year transition time (from Egypt to the Promised Land), so was the New established in a 40 year transition out of spiritual Egypt (1 Cor. 10:1-6; Gal 4:21-31; Heb. 4:9; Rev. 11:8 & 19).

Conclusion

If these things are so then Daniel, John, and Jesus are referring to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem with regard to the Great Tribulation and the Day of The Lord judgment that the Jews incurred when they rejected Messiah (Mt. 23:36-39). If this is true then, of course, the Great Tribulation is over.​

 

[claninja]

Isn't it the time of the Great Tribulation?

Also.....doesn't it mark the "end of the age" (the Old Covenant/Temple Age)?

That's what I used to think too. But now the more and more I read over it, the great tribulation doesn't seem to fit.

1.) the woman is nourished during these 3.5 years, and the dragon cannot seem to hurt her
2.) the 3.5 years occur right after Jesus ascends and when satan is thrown down.

The woman is clearly Israel due to her description of the sun, moon, and 12 stars and due to her giving birth to Jesus
Revelation 12:2,5 woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 5She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rulea all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

The woman (Israel) is nourished for 3.5 years right after Jesus ascends to heaven. The dragon tries to hurt her, but can't during these 3.5 years. Is there any other 3.5 time frame in the OT that doesn't have to do with the great tribulation?


I see Daniel 9:27 as 3.5 years of Jesus ministry, Jesus cut off (ascending to heaven), then the gospel going specifically to Israel for 3.5 more years.
Daniel 9:27 And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week,f but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

So this has been having me lean towards the 3.5 years of revelation 12 being equivalent to the last half of the 70th week.

 

[ewq1938]

Isn't it the time of the Great Tribulation?

No. The Tribulation begins in Rev 13. The end of Rev 12 shows this:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

He goes to war against Christians.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And that is the Tribulation in action.

What happens in Rev 12 are pre-tribulation events and time periods.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

It is a proof text for mid-tribulationists.

 

[mkgal1]

So this has been having me lean towards the 3.5 years of revelation 12 being equivalent to the last half of the 70th week.

Is there any reason why it can't be both (this is new to me so I have a LOT more reading to do on it in order to get my timeline straight)?

I absolutely agree that it's the last half of the 70th week being fulfilled (and the "nourishing of the woman" is the gospel being presented to the Jews)....but didn't this time also begin great persecution on the church (when Saul was persecuting the church)? Most timelines pertaining to Paul that I've seen show him -personally- persecuting the church from 30 A.D. to his conversion in about 34 A.D. But, like ewq1938 said (if I'm understanding correctly), the REAL persecuting can probably better be defined as what happened in 66-70 A.D.

 

[mkgal1]

No. The Tribulation begins in Rev 13. The end of Rev 12 shows this:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

He goes to war against Christians.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And that is the Tribulation in action.

What happens in Rev 12 are pre-tribulation events and time periods.

Hmmm.....well, there was a lot of unrest leading up to 70 A.D, it's difficult to put a bracket around which time period is which (for me right now, anyway).

 

[ewq1938]

Hmmm.....well, there was a lot of unrest leading up to 70 A.D, it's difficult to put a bracket around which time period is which (for me right now, anyway).

Ad70 events have nothing to do with Rev 12 and 13 and the Tribulation found in Rev 13.

 

[mkgal1]

.

 

[mkgal1]

Ad70 events have nothing to do with Rev 12 and 13 and the Tribulation found in Rev 13.

Then I misunderstood you. Sorry.

 

[Douggg]

After Jesus is caught up to God and to his throne, receives his kingdom, and is given authority, Satan is thrown down out of heaven. The dragon then pursues the woman (Israel)

Jesus was caught up to God and to His Throne, received his Kingdom and given authority - 2000 years ago.

Then in the end times, the 1260 days of the 7 years take place in Revelation 12:6, the first half of the seven years.

Israel is nourished for 3.5 years after Christ is caught up to God. Satan, furious of this, goes off to make war with Israel's offspring.

No, you have the timing of Jesus caught up to heaven wrong in relation to Israel being nourished the 1260 days. The 1260 days is end times. Jesus being caught up to heaven was first century.

firs century:
Revelation 12:5 Jesus caught up to heaven

End times:
Revelation 12:6 the 1260 days - end times, first half of the 7 years, the two witnesses time.
Revelation 12:7-9, the 7th trumpet sounds, the war in the (second) heaven - Satan and angels cast down to earth, Babylon is fallen is fallen.
Revelation 12:10, the Jews turn to Jesus, all Israel is saved, receive the gospel.
Revelation 12:14, the time times half time ~ the second half of the 7 years, the great tribulation as God dismantles Satan's kingdom of Babylon the Great.

 

[mkgal1]

In reading more (for now) it does seem to me to be both the safety from persecution and the remainder of the 70th week where the gospel was preached exclusively to the Jews.

Quote from linked article - The woman remains safe in the wilderness during the time of tribulation in Israel for 3½ years (or “42 months”; See Rev. 11:2, 3). This reference to 1,260 days, says David S. Clark, is a term borrowed from Daniel, where it was a period of persecution.” - Revelation Chapter 12

 

[ewq1938]

End times:
Revelation 12:6 the 1260 days - end times, first half of the 7 years, the two witnesses time.

The two witnesses come onto the scene slightly before Rev 13:1 so they are most definitely not active in any part of Rev 12.

Revelation 12:7-9, the 7th trumpet sounds, the war in the (second) heaven - Satan and angels cast down to earth, Babylon is fallen is fallen.

The 7th trump doesn't sound until after the trib which is found at the end of Rev 11, which is long after the events of Rev 12. Rev 13 shows the beginning of the trib, Rev 11 showing the end of the trib and the return of Christ at 7th trump.

Revelation 12:10, the Jews turn to Jesus, all Israel is saved, receive the gospel.

That verse says nothing at all about such things so why force those events into the verse?

Revelation 12:14, the time times half time ~ the second half of the 7 years, the great tribulation as God dismantles Satan's kingdom of Babylon the Great.

The 7 year trib was shortened so there is no such thing as a 7 year trib, plus it isn't mentioned in Rev 12 except the last verse when Satan is going off to begin the 3.5 year/42 month tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

That verse says nothing at all about such things so why force those events into the verse?

It is not forcing anything. Revelation 12 is the 7 years relavent to Israel. That's what it is about.

The 1260 days of the two witnesses is the first half of the 7 years. Which starts with the Jews thinking the Antichrist is the messiah - and the two witnesses warning against him. The Antichrist betrays them and claims to be God. He becomes the beast.

At day 1185 the Abomination of desolation, image of the beast, is setup to be worshiped and the Jews begin to flee as the two witnesses battle the beast. The Jews flee for 75 days, until the two witness are killed. The window for fleeing is closed and them stuck in Jerusalem are the ones in Revelation 12:17.

The two witnesses ascend 3 1/2 days later, the 7th trumpet sounds, the third woe is about to take place.

The war in (the second) heaven takes place. Satan and his angels are cast down, as God begins taking the nations of this world away from Satan's power and dominion.

The Jews, shocked and taken back by the betrayal of their thought to be messiah, turn to Jesus and are saved, but have to endure the Great Tribulation until Jesus returns to rescue them, and judge the beast, the false prophet, and Satan.

When Satan is cast down, it is the third woe. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth. For the time times half time remaining that Satan has - before he is a terror no more.

Ezekiel 28:
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

 

[ewq1938]

It is not forcing anything. Revelation 12 is the 7 years relavent to Israel. That's what it is about.

The official term for that is called Eisegesis.

 

[Douggg]

Eisegesis

It is not eisegesis, because it is what the text is meaning, not what it not meaning. It is talking about the Jews receiving the gospel, in the middle of the 7 years, once they go through the big mistake of thinking the Antichrist is their messiah.

 

[ewq1938]

It is not eisegesis, because it is what the text is meaning, not what it not meaning. It is talking about the Jews receiving the gospel, in the middle of the 7 years, once they go through the big mistake of thinking the Antichrist is their messiah.

None of which is in any of that chapter...which is why it is Eisegesis.

Eisegesis is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text so the meaning of the text changes from what it originally was into something the Eisegete (an individual who practices eisegesis) wishes it to be.

 

[Douggg]

None of which is in any of that chapter...which is why it is Eisegesis.

That is not the meaning of Eisegesis. To be Eisegesis it has to be a different meaning from what was originally intended - and I am not presenting any different meanings. I have not changed any of the meaning of any of the words or concepts in the text. Salvation is still salvation. The Kingdom of God is still the Kingdom of God. The power of Christ is still the power of Christ.

What I am explaining is to "who" those things come, at that time.

"Eisegesis is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text so the meaning of the text changes from what it originally was into something the Eisegete (an individual who practices eisegesis) wishes it to be."

 

[ewq1938]

That is not the meaning of Eisegesis.

Yes, that is the meaning of the word Eisegesis.

Eisegesis | CARM.org

"Eisegesis is when a person interprets and reads information into the text that is not there."

 

[iamlamad]

The two witnesses come onto the scene slightly before Rev 13:1 so they are most definitely not active in any part of Rev 12.

The 7th trump doesn't sound until after the trib which is found at the end of Rev 11, which is long after the events of Rev 12. Rev 13 shows the beginning of the trib, Rev 11 showing the end of the trib and the return of Christ at 7th trump.

That verse says nothing at all about such things so why force those events into the verse?

The 7 year trib was shortened so there is no such thing as a 7 year trib, plus it isn't mentioned in Rev 12 except the last verse when Satan is going off to begin the 3.5 year/42 month tribulation.

Douggg is using imagination, but EWQ is misinterpreting everything. Both are mistaken.

The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. How in the world can you imagine something in chapter 11 - a midpoint chapter - is "after the trib" When the trib began with the 7th seal?

You don't know what is shortened, but you must write something - so you write something, and it is wrong. It will be the DAYS of GT that are shortened. I don't mean a 24 hour day shortened to 20 hours, I means the number of days where GT takes place shortened. The 1260 days is written in stone, so to speak, being God's word, so it will never change. Same with the 42 months. It will not change.

Get the picture: during the last 1260 days there will be days where GT is taking place, the murder of all who will not bow to the image or take the mark. As Jesus said, those are days of GT. But one day during the last 1260 days, God will pour out the vials of His wrath, and the armies of the Beast will be stopped in their tracks. there will be no more murder from the Beast. The days of GT will be over. Therefore, they will not continue through the entire 1260 days. So God said they were shortened.

You have thoroughly mixed up Revelation and your theories will be proven wrong.

In short, your Eisegesis is worse than Douggg's!