Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[FreeGrace2]

Do I dodge as good as you do?

I don't, you do it quite often.

I've never read where anyone is OUT of fellowship.

I suppose you'll now deny the Trinity and give the lame excuse that you've never read about the Trinity in the Bible as well.

But here are some verses on fellowship:
1 Cor 1:9 - God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Cor 6:14 - Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
2 Cor 13:14 - May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Phil 2:1 - Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion,
Phil 3:10 - I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and fellowship in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
1 John 1:3 - We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:6 - If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.
1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

So we see that fellowship is an important issue in the Christian life.

Question: can a believer grieve and quench the Holy Spirit and STILL be in fellowship?

Question: can a believer be filled with the Spirit and walk by His means and be OUT of fellowship?

I believe the answers are all self evident. I don't really expect an answer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But if a believer who walks in the light and by abiding in that light has fellowship (meaning partnership, participation with, a shared with) with God and knows God turns from the light and walks in darkness he no longer has the light in him and if he says he is in the light he lies and does not the truth and is not a sharer with God or a participant in the light of Christ in salvation

I was agreeing with everything intil the last 2 words. Salvation is not an issue in fellowship. One must be saved before fellowship is possible.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I have examined the verses you posted. Whatever was said in John 17 was AFTER Judas had been identified as the betrayer and sent on his way, and applied only to the eleven.

No, if you read the context Jesus is referring to when they were given to him from the beginning and how he kept them in the word while he was with them. Judas is obviously part of those that were given to Jesus and who belonged to him from the start. Scripture shows this clearly

"6 I have [this refers to Jesus earthly ministry from the start and is a past tense] manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; [when were the 12 apostles given to Jesus and if you notice the tenses here again it is past tense. To say "thine they were" refers to all 12 and the past event we see this clearly in Matthew 10 when Jesus called unto him "HIS" twelve " not his eleven and one devil. They were "his" and belonged to him and Jesus says in this sane section "And all mine are thine, and thine are mine"] and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. ...12 While I was with them in the world, [again referring to his ministry in the past with them the word "was with them" shows the tense clearly] I kept them [past tense referring to the tewelve Judas included] in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them [none of the twelve that were given to Jesus] is lost,[showing that the eleven in this context were saved before the cross, but not without the cross in time] but the son of perdition;[this is clear here, none of the 12 you gave me is lost BUT one and that was Judas he is referring to the 12 that were given to him by the Father and Judas is singled out] that the scripture might be fulfilled."(John 17:6)

We also see Jesus referring to those the father gave him, even before John 17 and before Judas had fallen by transgression.

"John 6 - "39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

John 17 - 10. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; "

Here swe see the direct connection to matthew 10 which reads

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, [obviously they belonged to himand they belonged to the father even before they belonged to jesus as Jesus said all mine are thine and thine are mine"] he gave them [all 12 Judas included] power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; ...and Judas Iscariot...
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth,...6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel....16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep...[Judas included. This section nowhere discludes Judas at this time. This is the beginning of Hi ministry and not later when he betrayed Jesus and when Satan entered into him. ] (Matthew 10 1-)

Mark 9 - 38. And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40. For he that is not against us is on our part. 41. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. "

I believe in this section he was referring to his saved disciples and said they
"belong to Christ" Judas was said to be of Jesus household and as his master in Matthew 10.

During the earthly ministry of Christ Judas was allowed to participate in all the activities of the 12 disciples (later called apostles) even though he was not saved.

Sorry to say but you are just making up stuff here. In Matthew 10 when Jesus called unto him HIS twelve disciples they were right there called "apostles" and Judas was one of them. Jesus also "ordained" the twelve (Judas included) and sent forth the twelve ( Judas included) to the lost sheep as sheep. It seems clear to the unbiased reader.

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples,...
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; ...and Judas Iscariot...

And I already showed that all 12 were saved at one time. In fact all OT saints were saved born again had the life of Christ in them and the father. They did not have the Holy Ghost baptism yet. But this is a long talk about the new birth in the OT and the salvation of all on the earth from the beginning.

But the Holy Spirit was only given to the apostles after Christ's resurrection, and the fullness of the Spirit was only given to them on the day of Pentecost.

All the apostles were saved by the grace of God and had the seed, (the word, Christ) in them before pentecost ( though not without the cross and ressurrection of Jesus in time God is able to give the benefit of Christ work and the free gift to all through their secrets in the heart of faith and receiving the word, or seed in their heart. There are many scriptures that can show a person is saved and born again in the OT and had God dwelling in them, the father and the Son, before the cross.

Here is a brief example. This is a long talk maybe later.

John 6:69
"And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God." (spoken before the cross)

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."(1 John 5:1 KJV)

"15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God."(1 John 4:15 KJV)

John 5:24
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath [present tense] everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed [present tense, he did not say shall be passed later] from death unto life."

John 6:47
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath [present tense reality] everlasting life."

John 8:30
As he spake these words, many believed on him."

John 4:39
"And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did."

John 10:42
"And many believed on him there."

John 12:11
"Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus."

 

[LoveofTruth]

That Judas was enabled to do miracles is not a proof of His being saved, since the unsaved will also do miracles but will be told to depart by Christ when they are judged.

Jesus not only called HIS twelve apostles ( sent ones of God ) to him and gave them power to cast out devils and heal and do many wonderful things, but he called all twelve of them his sheep and sent them to the LOST sheep. There is a difference between a lost sheep and a sheep, or saved sheep. Jesus said he gives eternal life to his sheep. Judas was once a sheep and had that life but betrayed that belief and trust he had in Jesus and he FELL by transgression . He even is said to have obtained part of the ministry.

We see that Jesus spoke to the twelve apostles and the seventy he sent out and said they had their names written in heaven and to rejoice over that. This section is similar to Matthew 10. We see that the ministry of which Judas was a partaker and had obtained part of was also given to others.

"After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. ..5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. 6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. 7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house...16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. 17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. 21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. ..23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:"(Luke 10:1,5-7,16-21,23 KJV)

So to be given power by Jesus and the ministry and to be sent forth by him meant that there names were written in heaven. They were to rejoice over this.

Jesus also said an interesting thing to the 12

"27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."(Matthew 19:27,28 KJV)

Was Judas at one time promised this if he continued to abide in Christ and follow him? It seems so.

Satan and his minions can also do counterfeit miracles.

Be a bit careful here, Judas was given power to cast out devils by Jesus. And Jesus said Satan cannot cast out Satan. So Judas was not a devil at that time in Matthew 10. We don't want to ever attribute the work of God to the devil. Remember Jesus called unto him HIS twelve and gave all twelve power and sent all twelve forth to the lost sheep as sheep and they all had the spirit of the Father speaking in them when needed. As Matthew 1o clearly shows.

The key to knowing the spiritual condition of Judas was how Christ viewed him.

He was called a devil (demon) as well as a Son of Perdition (a title applied to the Antichrist also), and "he went to his own place" (Hell). Satan entered into his heart, while Satan only influenced Peter, and then tried to destroy his faith. Satan cannot enter into the hearts of God's people.

This is your theory again. But scripture shows different. Judas was only said to be a devil near the end of Jesus ministry not at the beginning. Clearly Jesus called Judas an apostle and a sheep sent to the lost sheep. Jesus also referred to Judas as his familiar friend and he later lifted up his heel against him. Jesus also said Judas was of his own household. It was better for Judas if he had never been born. Judas fell by transgression. He was not always fallen or else that would not make sense (Acts 1)

 

[LoveofTruth]

I was agreeing with everything intil the last 2 words. Salvation is not an issue in fellowship. One must be saved before fellowship is possible.

Yes but salvation in Christ and fellowship are one and the same as 1 John shows. If we say we are in the light and walk in darkness we lie and have no fellowship (or partnership, participation or sharer with) Jesus at all. John says we lie if we are in darkness and SAY we are in the light.

This is similar to some who hold a wrong doctrine called "Once saved always saved". They say when they are in the darkness that they are saved still in Christ and in his light. John says they lie.

1 John 1:6
"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

Notice, only when we abide in Christ and walk in light is true spiritual communion, participation and sharing with Christ (or fellowship). And only then does the blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin. But if we walk in darkness does the blood of Christ still cleanseth us from all sin? John would say not. In fact he says if we abide in Christ we sin not. And he says if we don't do this we cannot say that we know him or have seen him ( while in the state of sin). Fellowship with God is not a given no matter what. John says we must abide and walk in the light and Jesus says we must continue in his word and love etc. This is all through continual believing unto the end.

Paul says similar in 1 Cor 6:9,10 And tells believers be not deceived.

2 Corinthians 6:14
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"

Philippians 1:5
"For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;"

Fellowship (or our sharing the life in Christ in participation with him in the spirit) is connected to our abiding in the light in Christ. No fruit or life or anything can be done unless we abide. Jesus said if a man abides not he is cast forth AS a branch and withered and is cast into the fire. The withering comes because they are not abiding in Christ, there will be no live flowing through the branch if it is cut off, no fruit fellowship in the mystery or salvation.

Paul speaks of the "fellowship in the mystery of Christ"

this mystery is a deep aspect of salvation it is Christ in you the hope of glory. This is the spiritual life we have and communion with God in the spirit through abiding in faith. By faith Christ dwells in our heart.

Ephesians 3:9
"And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:"

Colossians 1:26.27 KJV
"Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes but salvation in Christ and fellowship are one and the same as 1 John shows.

I disagree. Fellowship reflects the state of the relationship. There can be no fellowship even when there is a relationship.

Are all marriages in a state of "bliss"? Of course not. Fellowship may come and go.

Or a biblical example: prodigal son. The son's status as son remained throughout the parable, showing the permanence of relationship. But there was a clear break in fellowship.

Another word for fellowship is intimacy. When the Bible speaks of fellowship, it is a reference to intimacy.

If we say we are in the light and walk in darkness we lie and have no fellowship (or partnership, participation or sharer with) Jesus at all. John says we lie if we are in darkness and SAY we are in the light.

Nothing here about not being saved, or losing salvation.

This is similar to some who hold a wrong doctrine called "Once saved always saved". They say when they are in the darkness that they are saved still in Christ and in his light. John says they lie.

John NEVER said believers who in darkness lose salvation.

But since you bring up OSAS, John 10:28 is a statement of the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

When Jesus said "I give them eternal life" He was stating that He is the CAUSE of having eternal life. If He doesn't give it, one does not have it.

When Jesus said "and they shall never perish" He was stating that the EFFECT of having eternal life is never perishing.

So, the basis for never perishing is to HAVE eternal life.

So, instead of OSAS, it is really OGELSNP.

Or, once given eternal life, shall never perish. That's eternal security.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Or a biblical example: prodigal son. The son's status as son remained throughout the parable, showing the permanence of relationship. But there was a clear break in fellowship.

I already dealt with this one with you I believe. The son was "DEAD" and "LOST" as the father said when he was out of the house when he came back in the house he was "ALIVE again" and "FOUND".

Very clear there, lost and found dead and alive.

This is a figure of the father and His house and a child that goes away and is dead and comes back in faith and is alive again. This is what I have been saying for a long time

also consider the angels that sinned and are headed for the lake of fire. They are still called angels, but they are no longer abiding in the truth and headed for the lake of fire. They once were in the truth and in the life and then they did not remain or continue in that. This shows that a heavenly being eternal and with God can sin and fall and go to the lake of fire.

If God spared not the angels that sinned, all should take heed.

But notice that they are still called "angels". Just as a lost dead son can be called a lost dead son. Or a rebellious child etc. Jesus is the door and gate if we enter in through him we are safe and alive if we do not abide or remain there or dwell there we are dead. Without Jesus we can do nothing and Christ shall profit us nothing if we fall from grace. ( to fall from grace is to fall from salvation, Read about this in Galatians 3,5 etc.)

Nothing here about not being saved, or losing salvation.

John NEVER said believers who in darkness lose salvation.

Yes there is as John said if WE say we are in the light and walk in darkness WW lie and do not the truth. To lie is a sin and all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire. ALL liars.

also John says if we walk in darkness we cannot say we are in the light. Salvation is only in the light of Christ, believers are said to be partakers with the saints in light. We put on the armour of light and God is light in Him is no darkness at all, if we are in him we ought so to walk as Jesus walked and if we walk in darkness that is because the god of this world has blinded the minds of those that BELIEVE not ( 2 Cor 4). Believers are said to be "enlightened" and Jesus said while ye have the light BELIEVE IN THE LIGHT, that we might be children of light.

We never read of a believer who walks in darkness as being in salvation in the light of Christ.

John even says more about how to walk in darkness is to lose salvation and not to abide in Christ which is very serious he says

"6 He that saith he abideth in him [theres that word abideth again in connection to being as Jesus] ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked...9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes."( 1 John 2:6,9-11 KJV)

Does this hatred of a brother sound like they are saved and in eternal life?

NO, they are not, John further shows this and says in the same letter

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

So clearly, to walk in darkness means you are not in eternal life and eternal life (Jesus Christ) is not in you in that darkness. Fir in Him s life and the life is the light of men, The light of the glorious gospel of Christ shines unto us who believe. The ones who are in darkness and hatred do not believe.

Eternal life is Jesus Christ and either he abides is in us and we abide in him or we can abide not and go into darkness and hatred and he will no longer abide in us.

To be born again is to be renewed in righteousness and true holiness after the image of Him that created us. This new birth is the salvation in Christ where we have Christ formed in us. This is the life in us the eternal life in Christ. As scripture clearly says to the unbiased reader.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

I already dealt with this one with you I believe. The son was "DEAD" and "LOST" as the father said when he was out of the house when he came back in the house he was "ALIVE again" and "FOUND".

Very clear there, lost and found dead and alive.

This is a figure of the father and His house and a child that goes away and is dead and comes back in faith and is alive again. This is what I have been saying for a long time

also consider the angels that sinned and are headed for the lake of fire. They are still called angels, but they are no longer abiding in the truth and headed for the lake of fire. They once were in the truth and in the life and then they did not remain or continue in that. This shows that a heavenly being eternal and with God can sin and fall and go to the lake of fire.

If God spared not the angels that sinned, all should take heed.

But notice that they are still called "angels". Just as a lost dead son can be called a lost dead son. Or a rebellious child etc. Jesus is the door and gate if we enter in through him we are safe and alive if we do not abide or remain there or dwell there we are dead. Without Jesus we can do nothing and Christ shall profit us nothing if we fall from grace. ( to fall from grace is to fall from salvation, Read about this in Galatians 3,5 etc.)



Yes there is as John said if WE say we are in the light and walk in darkness WW lie and do not the truth. To lie is a sin and all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire. ALL liars.

also John says if we walk in darkness we cannot say we are in the light. Salvation is only in the light of Christ, believers are said to be partakers with the saints in light. We put on the armour of light and God is light in Him is no darkness at all, if we are in him we ought so to walk as Jesus walked and if we walk in darkness that is because the god of this world has blinded the minds of those that BELIEVE not ( 2 Cor 4). Believers are said to be "enlightened" and Jesus said while ye have the light BELIEVE IN THE LIGHT, that we might be children of light.

We never read of a believer who walks in darkness as being in salvation in the light of Christ.

John even says more about how to walk in darkness is to lose salvation and not to abide in Christ which is very serious he says

"6 He that saith he abideth in him [theres that word abideth again in connection to being as Jesus] ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked...9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes."( 1 John 2:6,9-11 KJV)

Does this hatred of a brother sound like they are saved and in eternal life?

NO, they are not, John further shows this and says in the same letter

"15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

So clearly, to walk in darkness means you are not in eternal life and eternal life (Jesus Christ) is not in you in that darkness. Fir in Him s life and the life is the light of men, The light of the glorious gospel of Christ shines unto us who believe. The ones who are in darkness and hatred do not believe.

Eternal life is Jesus Christ and either he abides is in us and we abide in him or we can abide not and go into darkness and hatred and he will no longer abide in us.

To be born again is to be renewed in righteousness and true holiness after the image of Him that created us. This new birth is the salvation in Christ where we have Christ formed in us. This is the life in us the eternal life in Christ. As scripture clearly says to the unbiased reader.

I don't think that we can say that for sure that has anything to do with the young man's salvation.

I've been lost a few times but I think I was saved all the way through those.

M-Bob

 

[EmSw]

I don't, you do it quite often.

You don't? Nobody has yet to see any OT verses from you that show how they received life. Like I said, this is your achilles' heel. Once you give any, it will throw your beliefs for a loop. If and when you show us any, I will show you that eternal life wasn't guaranteed for them.

I suppose you'll now deny the Trinity and give the lame excuse that you've never read about the Trinity in the Bible as well.

Hmmm, free grace isn't in the Bible either.

But here are some verses on fellowship:
1 Cor 1:9 - God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Cor 6:14 - Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
2 Cor 13:14 - May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Phil 2:1 - Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion,
Phil 3:10 - I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and fellowship in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
1 John 1:3 - We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:6 - If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.
1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

So we see that fellowship is an important issue in the Christian life.

Well, well, well. Those who walk in darkness are liars if they say they have fellowship. Where do all liars go? Or, have you forgotten that verse in Revelation?

Question: can a believer grieve and quench the Holy Spirit and STILL be in fellowship?

Question: can a believer be filled with the Spirit and walk by His means and be OUT of fellowship?

I believe the answers are all self evident. I don't really expect an answer.

The answer is no to the first question, and yes to the last one. You set your expectations way too low!

Also, liars are those who say they know Him and do not keep His commandments. Therefore I will ask you two questions also.

1. Do you say you know Him?

2. Do you keep His commandments?

A no to either question and one will be headed to the lake of fire.

 

[LoveofTruth]

But since you bring up OSAS, John 10:28 is a statement of the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

When Jesus said "I give them eternal life" He was stating that He is the CAUSE of having eternal life. If He doesn't give it, one does not have it.

When Jesus said "and they shall never perish" He was stating that the EFFECT of having eternal life is never perishing.

So, the basis for never perishing is to HAVE eternal life.

So, instead of OSAS, it is really OGELSNP.

Or, once given eternal life, shall never perish. That's eternal security.

Part of the problem we seem to have here is that I give very clear verses in Matthew 10 and Luke and Acts about Judas being once saved obtaining part of the ministry and called a sheep by Jesus sent to the lost sheep and being one of "HIS" 12 apostles and you simple seem to direct away from the text and the clear meaning and pick another verse that you think applies against what Jesus said in Matthew 10. It is not either or, everything Jesus said can be harmonized. This is the way we must understand scripture. We cannot leave verses out of harmony and understanding with our doctrine because you might think they seem to contradict what Jesus said in another place.

I find no contradiction

espescially in John 10:28

this seems to be your main verse so we have to discuss it.

Jesus said in context

"9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."(John 10:9 KJV)

Here we see that Jesus offers salvation to all men, and so all can be his sheep , saved sheep if they come in through him. Jesus already had said in chapter 5

John 6:47
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

So obviously belief and coming to Jesus with a humble heart after being convicted by Gods light in the heart and the ground broken up can receive the word as Jesus said about the seed. So the condition for having everlasting life ( which is Jesus Christ the life the eternal life 1 John 1:,1,2 etc etc) is to believe.

Then Jesus said in John 10

"14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."(John 10:14 KJV)

Jesus knew his sheep, because he knew all men, and he knows their hearts and what is in man. He is the true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world (John 1:9 KJV). This light is what men must come to and not hate (John 3:17-20 etc). if they hate the light they are condemned (John 3). And Jesus knew those who were coming to the light, those who had already believed in the light and those who hated the light and ran from it. So when he says his sheep hear his voice. That is in their hearts they hear his voice For he has been calling men and drawing men and convicting men since the beginning of the creation of the world. Today of you hear his voice harden not your hearts.

So when he went about and called his sheep to him , if they were already saved and were looking for God’s righteousness they were filled with God and born again by the word of God. This made them his sheep. He knew them. So to say to Matthew come follow me and Matthew got up and followed him right away, showed that he was one of Hos sheep already. Just as the 12 apostles belonged to the father before they were given to Jesus and he knew his own and called his own to him. Here also Jesus knows his own sheep. He knows all men.

Now this doesn't mean for a second that the lost who listened to Jesus and were not his sheep did not have a chance to come to him and repent and believe. No he did offer that opportunity to every man and those who saw him espescially should have been able to see his good works and miracles and know and believe. And he had already said that any man can enter in in vs 9

Jesus also says in John 10

"25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand....38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him..."42 And many believed on him there.""(John 10:25-28 KJV)

So in this understanding of knowing his sheep in their hearts we can see that Jesus speaks of those who abide in him and continue in his word as he said in John 15.

But notice in verse 25 that Jesus told them but they believed not. He offers truth to them and showed them many things. But they believed. If they were rejecting his word they are in a state of darkness. But this doesn't mean that they could not come to him still. He offers this to them in verse 38 where he said that ye may know, and believe"

So when Jesus says ye believe not because ye are not my sheep. They were not his sheep at that time or in eternal life at that time but we know that some of them who had not believed did believe because of his word as vs 42 "42 And many believed on him there.".

The opposite is true now when we get to vs 28 about Jesus giving his sheep eternal life. They are in that eternal life in Christ as long as they abide in him and continue in the faith grounded and settled and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel. They are in that eternal life which is to be in Christ and can not fall away as long as they abide and continue in belief. Jesus had already showed that the apostles could go away also from eternal life when he asked "will ye also go away".

Jesus calls all those that labour and are heavy laden. This labour and heavy laden is when they have come to the light and the light shines and breaks up the fallow ground of their heat and reproves all sin and they are exposed and humbled by God. If they receive him in their hearts and his word they have eternal life in them


But as we saw already in Johns other letter 1 John. He shows that a person can be walking in the light and say they are in the light then walk in darkness and try to say they are in the light and be a liar. They can say they know God but in works deny him. They can say they abide in him and yet walk in hatred towards their brother and so abide in death and darkness and no longer have eternal life ( Jesus Christ ) abiding in them

In John 10:28 Jesus is speaking of what he gives to those who continue n His words. Then and only then are they his disciples. If they abide in him and he in them and they continue in his word through faith.

Here are a few more conditions to be in John 10:28 and to continue in the faith.

Notice the conditional word "if"

John 8:31
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"

"7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."(John 15:7 KJV)

"10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."(John 15:10 KJV)

and back to John 10:28. They shall never perish. This is true as we abide in Christ. There is nothing that can separate us from Gods love towards us and his power to keep us. We are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH.

But if we deny the faith , cast off our first faith having damnation, lose faith, depart from the faith, turn from God depart from Him through and evil heart of unbelief. Then we cannot say we will not perish. God doesn't leave or forsake us , but men have that choice to do so.

We see a clear example of this in Judas and God says

2 Chronicles 15:2 KJV
"... The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."

God doesn't leave first . But if we do then he does.

Jesus said clearly to all

"33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."(Matthew 10:33 KJV)

So to understand John 10:28 you must understand who eternal life is, how to remain or abide in eternal life, and how do men no longer have eternal life in them. And the many conditions in scripture about salvation.

It is not by works of the law we are saved, or by our own works of the flesh or meritous works or sacraments etc. But By grace through faith. If we through faith have Christ dwell in our hearts by hearing the word and receiving then we have the spirit. But even if men start that way they can fall away from grace and have Christ profit them no more as we read in Galatians

"2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain."(Galatians 3:2 KJV)


So we can see that they heard the word and received the Spirit by faith, then some went back into the works of the law and were in danger of this and by doing so their faith would be vain, or like a vapour of no value. Paul said if they did this, even though they did hear and receive the Spirit at one time that he stood n doubt of them and they were fallen from grace if they were doing this works of the law and seeking to be justified by it.

"19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you"(Galatians 4:19,20 KJV)

Notice that they had to be born again again and to have Christ ( eternal life) formed in them again. Paul did not give them the OSAS talk, he said he stod in doubt of them. Does that sound like a OSAS preacher there? No.

"2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing....4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."( Galatians 5:4 KJV)

As Jesus said, without him they can do NOTHING. To not have Christ profit them anything is to not be in salvation. To say Christ shall be of no effect unto them. Means that they are in danger in that sate and need to come back to Christ for salvation. To say they are fallen from grace. Means they are fallen from salvation, for by grace are we saved through faith.

Paul also mentions this about them in chapter one

"6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."(Galatians 1:6-7 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

I don't think that we can say that for sure that has anything to do with the young man's salvation.

I've been lost a few times but I think I was saved all the way through those.

M-Bob

well you came back to Christ hopefully and that time of darkness you were in was a dangerous place to be

we read

Ezekiel 18:24
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

and I believe the story of the prodigal is showing the Fathers love for the lost soul. When the son was out of the house and in bondage to the Devil (as I see the type) he was lost and dead feeding the pigs. A type of a man in sin walloing in the mire. Then in the fathers house he is alive again and found

The spiritual meaning must be seen from what Jesus means. Obviously he is speaking of the salvation in the fathers house and when he put the robe on him and ring. They stand for the righteousness of Christ and power and authority in Christ as I see it. There is even an element of sacrifice in slaying the fatted calf. And of the father coming down to see the Son from the house

We also see in the next parable the good shepherd seeking the lost sheep. Again a type of salvation..

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Or a biblical example: prodigal son. The son's status as son remained throughout the parable, showing the permanence of relationship. But there was a clear break in fellowship.

I already dealt with this one with you I believe. The son was "DEAD" and "LOST" as the father said when he was out of the house when he came back in the house he was "ALIVE again" and "FOUND".

Very clear there, lost and found dead and alive.

There's no reason to continue discussing the prodigal. I've made my point and you don't like it. End of story. But my point is clearly seen in the parable anyway. The son never died, either physically or spiritually. But what was dead and came back and lost but found was fellowship (intimacy) with his father. Period.

Your view spiritualizes a parable, which is a dangerous thing to do.

also consider the angels that sinned and are headed for the lake of fire. They are still called angels, but they are no longer abiding in the truth and headed for the lake of fire. They once were in the truth and in the life and then they did not remain or continue in that. This shows that a heavenly being eternal and with God can sin and fall and go to the lake of fire.

This is totally irrevelant. Son and father speak to RELATIONSHIP. Which cannot be said about angels, whether they fell or not.

If God spared not the angels that sinned, all should take heed.

Uh, the warning is to unbelievers who have never believed.

I've given commands that directly relate to the Christian life and reflect the believer's status with God, meaning whether being IN or OUT of fellowship.

Those who argue that salvation can be lost seem totally unaware of this concept. They take verses that are about losing fellowship as loss of salvation.

Once again, consider these commands for believers:
1. be filled with the Spirit. Eph 5:18
2. walk by means of the Spirit. Gal 5:16
3. STOP grieving the Spirit. Eph 4:30
4. STOP quenching the Spirit. 1 Thess 5:19

To be IN fellowship with God, one must obey commands #1,2.
To be OUT of fellowship with God, one must NOT obey commands #3,4.

Or, since you seem to disagree with just about everything I have posted, please explain how these 4 commands relate to living the Christian life, and aren't about fellowship.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hmmm, free grace isn't in the Bible either.

I would expect such a comment from one who mocks the cross of Christ.

However, grace is free. We are saved by grace, per Eph 2:8 and eternal life is a free gift, per Rom 6:23. Those with an open mind can connect the dots.

 

[EmSw]

I would expect such a comment from one who mocks the cross of Christ.

However, grace is free. We are saved by grace, per Eph 2:8 and eternal life is a free gift, per Rom 6:23. Those with an open mind can connect the dots.

And you sir mock Jesus' words of, 'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'.

Any sacrifice a person makes is not free. It costs the guilty person something. Read up on it in the OT (if you know what that is). No sacrifice was free.

You still haven't provided any OT verses which show how they received life. I'm still waiting.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Part of the problem we seem to have here is that I give very clear verses in Matthew 10 and Luke and Acts about Judas being once saved obtaining part of the ministry and called a sheep by Jesus sent to the lost sheep and being one of "HIS" 12 apostles and you simple seem to direct away from the text and the clear meaning and pick another verse that you think applies against what Jesus said in Matthew 10.

You're really stuck on this. But none of this SAYS Judas was saved. One is forced to make a huge assumption.

Instead, we have clear verses from Jesus about the FACT that Judas was NOT saved, and was said BEFORE Judas left the Last Supper.

While Jesus went from disciple to disciple to wash their feet, to show humility and service, ol' Peter asked for a whole bath. To which Jesus said:
10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”

He was telling Peter that he was already clean (saved), then He added "though NOT every one of you", an obvious reference to Judas.

John even clarifies exactly what Jesus was saying in the next verse:
11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

Now, back to John 6:
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

Here, we see that "not believing" and "betraying" are in the same breath.

Then, we go to these verses:
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

This was WAY before the cross, so even back then, Judas was connected to those who "didn't believe". He was never saved.

espescially in John 10:28

this seems to be your main verse so we have to discuss it.

Jesus said in context

"9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."(John 10:9 KJV)

Here we see that Jesus offers salvation to all men, and so all can be his sheep , saved sheep if they come in through him. Jesus already had said in chapter 5

So far, so good.

John 6:47
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

So obviously belief and coming to Jesus with a humble heart after being convicted by Gods light in the heart and the ground broken up can receive the word as Jesus said about the seed. So the condition for having everlasting life ( which is Jesus Christ the life the eternal life 1 John 1:,1,2 etc etc) is to believe.

Then Jesus said in John 10

"14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."(John 10:14 KJV)

Jesus knew his sheep, because he knew all men, and he knows their hearts and what is in man. He is the true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world (John 1:9 KJV). This light is what men must come to and not hate (John 3:17-20 etc). if they hate the light they are condemned (John 3). And Jesus knew those who were coming to the light, those who had already believed in the light and those who hated the light and ran from it. So when he says his sheep hear his voice. That is in their hearts they hear his voice For he has been calling men and drawing men and convicting men since the beginning of the creation of the world. Today of you hear his voice harden not your hearts.

So when he went about and called his sheep to him , if they were already saved and were looking for God’s righteousness they were filled with God and born again by the word of God. This made them his sheep. He knew them. So to say to Matthew come follow me and Matthew got up and followed him right away, showed that he was one of Hos sheep already. Just as the 12 apostles belonged to the father before they were given to Jesus and he knew his own and called his own to him. Here also Jesus knows his own sheep. He knows all men.

Now this doesn't mean for a second that the lost who listened to Jesus and were not his sheep did not have a chance to come to him and repent and believe. No he did offer that opportunity to every man and those who saw him espescially should have been able to see his good works and miracles and know and believe. And he had already said that any man can enter in in vs 9

Jesus also says in John 10

"25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand....38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him..."42 And many believed on him there.""(John 10:25-28 KJV)

So in this understanding of knowing his sheep in their hearts we can see that Jesus speaks of those who abide in him and continue in his word as he said in John 15.

But notice in verse 25 that Jesus told them but they believed not. He offers truth to them and showed them many things. But they believed. If they were rejecting his word they are in a state of darkness. But this doesn't mean that they could not come to him still. He offers this to them in verse 38 where he said that ye may know, and believe"

So when Jesus says ye believe not because ye are not my sheep. They were not his sheep at that time or in eternal life at that time but we know that some of them who had not believed did believe because of his word as vs 42 "42 And many believed on him there.".

I didn't see anything in this that helps your argument. In fact, I'm not sure of your point in saying all this.

The opposite is true now when we get to vs 28 about Jesus giving his sheep eternal life. They are in that eternal life in Christ as long as they abide in him and continue in the faith grounded and settled and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

This is where your view derails. You've added a CONDITION by the words "as long as...".

Yet, in v.28, between the CAUSE of having eternal life and the EFFECT of having eternal life, Jesus inserts NO CONDITIONS at all. So you've added what Jesus DIDN'T.

Please explain yourself, since there are no verses that support your claim.

They are in that eternal life which is to be in Christ and can not fall away as long as they abide and continue in belief. Jesus had already showed that the apostles could go away also from eternal life when he asked "will ye also go away".

There's that CONDITION again, as I have highlighted.

How come there's NO verses in the Bible that say what you keep claiming? Doesn't that kinda bother you at least a bit?

In John 10:28 Jesus is speaking of what he gives to those who continue n His words.

No biblical support for your claim.

Here are a few more conditions to be in John 10:28 and to continue in the faith.

What do you mean by "to be in John 10:28"? Why do you insist on inserting conditions where Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS?

Notice the conditional word "if"

John 8:31
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"

"7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you."(John 15:7 KJV)

"10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."(John 15:10 KJV)

and back to John 10:28. They shall never perish.

Sorry, your conflation of Scripture is false. Jesus' statement doesn't need these other verses to understand. What He said was a single sentence. CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life. There are NO CONDITIONS for recipients to never perish.

But you insist on adding conditions where Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And you sir mock Jesus' words of, 'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'.

Then prove your empty claim. I explained exactly what Jesus was telling the rich man, and neither you nor anyone else made any corrections.

Which would have been impossible since I exegeted the passage itself.

Jesus showed the man that he wasn't keeping the law, and therefore NOT perfect. That's why the man went away sad.

I asked you why he left sad, but there was no response. So what's your view as to why he left sad?

Any sacrifice a person makes is not free. It costs the person something.

Well, finally, some sense in your posts. You're absolutely correct. It cost Jesus a total break in relationship with His Father when He paid the sin debt. It cost Jesus everything.

But it costs mankind nothing. Eternal life is a fre gift, per Rom 6:23.

 

[Micah888]

Jesus showed the man that he wasn't keeping the law, and therefore NOT perfect. That's why the man went away sad.

It would seem that he went away sad because he was told to forsake his wealth, which was obviously his idol. And that is why we have this saying: And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. (Mt 19:24)

While this man claimed to be obedient to the last six commandments, he was breaking the first four commandments with his idolatry. And indeed, had he even been able to keep all Ten Commandments perfectly (which only Christ has done) he would still need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him as Lord and Savior. He imagined that Jesus was merely a good Jewish rabbi, not God manifest in the flesh. And anyone who does not believe wholeheartedly that Jesus is God cannot be saved.

 

[LoveofTruth]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Or a biblical example: prodigal son. The son's status as son remained throughout the parable, showing the permanence of relationship. But there was a clear break in fellowship.

From that parable and the example of the angels that sinned and did not abide in the truth we can see that a person can be a dead and lost son, or a alive and found son. Yet still be considered a son in either state.

We see in Acts 17 an interesting verse where Paul says, speaking of the UNKNOWN God and how God can reach all men in the entire world, he says

"26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."(Acts 17:26-31 KJV)

Notice here that God offers salvation unto all men and Paul says that all men are his offspring whether they are saved or not. That doesn't mean all men are saved. But he uses the word "offspring". Just as there can be found sheep and lost sheep.

A child of God is born again a found sheep a child of the devil has been taken captive by the devil and is a lost sheep.

Also notice that this is the Assurance which is that Christ has risen from the dead. This assurance as related to believers is only through continual faith and abiding in Christ steadfast unto the end

Hebrews 3:14
"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

There's no reason to continue discussing the prodigal. I've made my point and you don't like it.

No i don't agree with it according to scripture, that's a difference.

The son never died, either physically or spiritually. But what was dead and came back and lost but found was fellowship (intimacy) with his father. Period.

This is your own idea. We can say that he was dead and lost, and in that dead and lost state he did not have any participation or fellowship with the father, for true fellowship in the mystery of Christ if found ony as we abide in Christ and only as the son was with the father in the fathers house.

This story is similar to how Adam and eve who walked with God and then they sinned and died spiritually and had to be born again.

Your view spiritualizes a parable, which is a dangerous thing to do.

This one is more a serious error you make here and spiritually dangerous. If you don't see things spiritually you cannot see.

The parable is spiritual and Jesus spoke this way to hide things from some and only those with eyes and ears to see and hear could understand. Jesus said,

Matthew 13:35
"That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."

John 6:63
"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."


"15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable. 16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."(Matthew 15:15-20 KJV) (Jesus shows the spiritual meaning as he did many times)

"12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."(Matthew 13:12-16 KJV)

"13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Corinthians 2:13,14 KJV)

This is totally irrevelant. Son and father speak to RELATIONSHIP. Which cannot be said about angels, whether they fell or not.

No it is important it shows that angels can still be called angels if they are fallen. And do you not think that the angels that sinned had a relationship with God before they fell??? Yes they did.They were messengers for God.

I've given commands that directly relate to the Christian life and reflect the believer's status with God, meaning whether being IN or OUT of fellowship.

Those who argue that salvation can be lost seem totally unaware of this concept. They take verses that are about losing fellowship as loss of salvation.

This is not accurate, I showed that salvation in Christ and fellowship or sharing with and partnership and participation with Christ is all part of the same salvation. There are too many verses to repeat, go back and re read all my points on this.

Once again, consider these commands for believers:
1. be filled with the Spirit. Eph 5:18
2. walk by means of the Spirit. Gal 5:16
3. STOP grieving the Spirit. Eph 4:30
4. STOP quenching the Spirit. 1 Thess 5:19

To be IN fellowship with God, one must obey commands #1,2.
To be OUT of fellowship with God, one must NOT obey commands #3,4....please explain how these 4 commands relate to living the Christian life, and aren't about fellowship.

1. To be filled with the spirit is to be strengthened by His might in the inner man . This is our walk in the light and power of God. But just before you get to verse 18 in Ephesians 5 we read of the opposite of walking in love and the power of the spirit and the opposite of the fruit of the spirit,

"2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. 3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth"(Ephesians 5:2-9 KJV)

Notice that he uses the words "children of disobedience. And he says be not "partakers" with them. The word fellowship is also a similar meaning to partake of or participate with. So a person cannot be a partaker with the ones in darkness and say he is a partaker with God at the same time.

2. Walking in the spirit is on contrast to walking in the flesh if a person walks in the flesh they shall not inherit the kingdom of God this is similar to 1 Cor 6:9,10. Those who say to a believer who walks in the flesh that they are simply out of fellowship with God, deceive them. Paul says to walk in the flesh is to not inherit the kingdom of God, not simply to loose fellowship. So the verses you use are actually correcting you.

3.Grieving the Spirit, is never a right thing to do in any way and very serious in the same chapter 4 just before vs 30 a few verses back we read

"27 Neither give place to the devil."

and after vs 30 he says

"31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

This shows that a person can fall into these sins and then as Paul said they shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Also chapter 5 comes right after where i showed Paul warns of those who do such things will not be inheriting the kingdom of God. And if a person does not forgive they will not be forgiven

To be sealed, is to be impressed with the Spirit of God a sort of down payment and as we walk in the spirit and sow to the spirit we shall reap everlasting life but if we sow to the flesh we shall reap corruption. And the seal can be broken just as those who were circumcised can be said to be uncircumcised. This vs about "sealed" is a longer talk that's a few things to consider for now. But the context shows the spirit and flesh walks. And the dangers of walking in the flesh as a believer. Paul is writing to believers by the way and warning them.

Or, since you seem to disagree with just about everything I have posted,

If your foundational view is faulty the entire building will come down. And every thing you try to say and build up from that foundation will be shaky.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You're really stuck on this. But none of this SAYS Judas was saved. One is forced to make a huge assumption.

Lets put it this way.

1.Did Jesus call all twelve his sheep and send them to the lost sheep?

2. Did Jesus call unto himself "HIS" twelve disciples?

Yes or no to both questions.

if you say yes, then Jesus says he gives eternal life to his sheep. And if he called "HIS" twelve disciples they were not the devils disciples , any of them at that time.

If you say no, then you simply deny the text and run off to other places to try and make sense of it. As you have been doing all through this post.

Let's start with this simple question.

Yes

or

No

to questions 1 and 2.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It would seem that he went away sad because he was told to forsake his wealth, which was obviously his idol.

Exactly! And what is the first commandment, which Jesus called "the greatest commandment"? To LOVE the Lord, your God, with ALL your heart, ALL your strength, and ALL your might.

And that is why we have this saying: And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. (Mt 19:24)

While this man claimed to be obedient to the last six commandments, he was breaking the first four commandments with his idolatry. And indeed, had he even been able to keep all Ten Commandments perfectly (which only Christ has done) he would still need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him as Lord and Savior. He imagined that Jesus was merely a good Jewish rabbi, not God manifest in the flesh. And anyone who does not believe wholeheartedly that Jesus is God cannot be saved.

Amen.