Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[Micah888]

I am convinced that the gospels are second or third generation accounts. That an actual apostle wrote one of the gospels is most unlikely.

Why would it be "unlikely"? Do you mean to suggest that God was unable to use Matthew and John to write their Gospels by divine inspiration, nor the non-apostles Mark and Luke to do the same? Luke says that he received his Gospel from above -- anothen. Paul quoted Luke as Scripture.

And John made it perfectly clear that he also wrote by divine inspiration: This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. (John 21:24). I believe that the "we know" is the testimony of the Godhead.
For there are three that bear record [testify] in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7)

 

[Micah888]

Judas we are told had the devil as his father -- thus never saved.

Yes. He is called "the Son of Perdition" and we are explicitly told that Satan entered into him, and after he died he went "to his own place".

 

[EmSw]

Yes. He is called "the Son of Perdition" and we are explicitly told that Satan entered into him, and after he died he went "to his own place".

Do you really think Jesus would call and choose a son of perdition to do His work? Do you think He calls and chooses sons of perdition today to do His work?

 

[Micah888]

Do you really think Jesus would call and choose a son of perdition to do His work?

Well that is exactly what Jesus said. Not to "do his work" but to effect His betrayal. The Lord had perfect foreknowledge of Judas Iscariot.

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. (John 6:70,71)

Do you think He calls and chooses sons of perdition today to do His work?

Not at all. That was a one-time decision to fulfil several prophecies, and also to fulfil the sacrifice of the Lamb of God which was predetermined and foreordained from before the foundation of the world.

 

[EmSw]

Well that is exactly what Jesus said. Not to "do his work" but to effect His betrayal. The Lord had perfect foreknowledge of Judas Iscariot.

Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. (John 6:70,71)

Not at all. That was a one-time decision to fulfil several prophecies, and also to fulfil the sacrifice of the Lamb of God which was predetermined and foreordained from before the foundation of the world.

This was not His work? Preaching the kingdom of heaven is at hand is effecting His betrayal?

Matthew 10
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.

 

[EmSw]

Not at all. That was a one-time decision to fulfil several prophecies, and also to fulfil the sacrifice of the Lamb of God which was predetermined and foreordained from before the foundation of the world.

Are wolves in sheep's clothing predetermined and foreordained? Are they not prophesied?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Do you think He calls and chooses sons of perdition today to do His work?

I would hate to answer that question with a no. And turn out to be wrong later.
M-Bob

 

[Mountainmanbob]

predetermined and foreordained

Interesting

M-Bob

 

[LoveofTruth]

If a believer must perform some (any) action in order to stay saved, then that is nothing more than a works based salvation. It's called faith plus works, because abiding is obviously more than believing. It involves lifestyle, and that falls under the heading of works, deeds, etc.


What??!! I don't understand what you mean by "then you make all their actions forced upon by God and they become robots". I see no connection between failing to continue in abiding and becoming robots.

Or that it says "God makes men sin, etc".

Apparently you do not either believe what Jesus said in John 10:28, or you just don't understand what He said.

But what He said is crystal clear about eternal security.

When He said, "I give them eternal life" He was teaching that He alone is the CAUSE of having eternal life. Agree or disagree?

When He said, "and they shall never perish" He was teaching that the EFFECT of having eternal life is to never perish. Agree or disagree?

No, abiding is not a works based salvation as we abide by faith we continue to believe the gospel that God offered in Christ. This continuing in the faith is abiding in the faith and abiding in Christ and he in us.

If a man abide not he is cast forth as a branch and withered and cast into the fire.

Satan was once abiding in the truth then he abide not (or continued not in the truth) and was in sin and the angels that sinned also are all headed for the lake o fire .

We don’t just abide, remain or continue in nothing. We abide in Christ by faith and as we continue to believe to the end . If we continue in the faith and grace that is .

And salvation is of works. But not our works we believe in the work of God. The work done on the cross and resurrection and Gods work in believers as we are born again and become his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works. These works of God that he works in us show forth that saving faith they are like fruit from a tree. And they only are evident as we abide or continue in Christ.


You misunderstand what abide means it seems. If someone continues in the faith he abides in Christ, if they continue in Jesus word they abide in Christ, if they continue in the love of God they abide in Christ.

But it is God which workers in us to make us perfect unto every good work working onus that which is wellpleasing in His sight.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Judas we are told had the devil as his father -- thus never saved.

M-Bob

That only happened at a certain time at the beginning he was a sheep of Jesus sent to the lost sheep. As I clearly showed from scripture.

You may want to read my original first post about 7 times and then tell me why the verses I clearly show don’t mean what they mean .

 

[LoveofTruth]

Looks like the fantasizers are coming out of the woodwork today. The Hebrew were blacks. Judas was saved. The earth is flat. Revelation was all fulfilled in 70 AD.

We won't go on since some fantasies apply to beliefs held by certain groups and they will get very offended.

Why do some Christians have to resort to fantasy when Christ said "You shall know the truth..."?

Answer all the verses I showed in my first post that’s a good start.

I think we can agree that just saying “your wrong and a fantasizer” is no proof and means nothing at all.

Judas was clearly called a sheep by Jesus and sent to the lost sheep

Please answer the verses I showed

Then we can start to really examine things

 

[EmSw]

Interesting

M-Bob

Those weren't my words. See post #3904.

 

[Micah888]

Answer all the verses I showed in my first post that’s a good start.

I have examined the verses you posted. Whatever was said in John 17 was AFTER Judas had been identified as the betrayer and sent on his way, and applied only to the eleven.

During the earthly ministry of Christ Judas was allowed to participate in all the activities of the 12 disciples (later called apostles) even though he was not saved. But the Holy Spirit was only given to the apostles after Christ's resurrection, and the fulness of the Spirit was only given to them on the day of Pentecost.

That Judas was enabled to do miracles is not a proof of His being saved, since the unsaved will also do miracles but will be told to depart by Christ when they are judged. Satan and his minions can also do counterfeit miracles. Indeed Judas was the treasurer for Christ and His apostles, but evidently he was stealing from them. Even his remorse after the betrayal, and the return of the money was not genuine repentance, since he eventually hanged himself.

The key to knowing the spiritual condition of Judas was how Christ viewed him. He was called a devil (demon) as well as a Son of Perdition (a title applied to the Antichrist also), and "he went to his own place" (Hell). Satan entered into his heart, while Satan only influenced Peter, and then tried to destroy his faith. Satan cannot enter into the hearts of God's people.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Go ahead and ignore my point. Can a believer bear fruit if they are out of fellowship, by way of grieving or quenching the Spirit?

Or, can a believe fail to bear fruit if they are in fellowship, by way of being filled with the Spirit and walking by His means?

The Greek word for abide does not include 'fellowship'.

The Greek word for grieve does not include 'out of fellowship'.

These aren't answers to my questions, but just another dodge.

Can a believer be in fellowship while grieving/quenching the Spirit? yes or no.

Do you even accept that a believer can be in or out of fellowship?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you really think Jesus would call and choose a son of perdition to do His work?

Well, since He did, why the irrelevant question?

Consider Acts 3:18 - But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer.

Judas was chosen to fulfill Scripture. For no other reason.

Do you think He calls and chooses sons of perdition today to do His work?

Who cares? The service of each believer is to bear fruit, not speculate on what God does.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You misunderstand what abide means it seems. If someone continues in the faith he abides in Christ, if they continue in Jesus word they abide in Christ, if they continue in the love of God they abide in Christ.

Then please explain what these commands mean, in regard to the Christian life:

1. Be filled with the Spirit. Eph 5:18
2. Walk by means of the Spirit. Gal 5:16
3. STOP grieving the Spirit. Eph 4:30
4. STOP quenching the Spirit. 1 Thess 5:19

But it is God which workers in us to make us perfect unto every good work working onus that which is wellpleasing in His sight.

And this directly relates to which of the 4 commands are being obeyed at any point.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Judas was clearly called a sheep by Jesus and sent to the lost sheep

Do you understand context? If so, you should understand that Jesus' reference to Judas as a "sheep" was in contrast to the "wolves" who were actively seeking His death.

But, in John 10, Jesus makes note of categories of sheep:
1. His sheep Meaning saved Jews.
2. other sheep of His Meaning saved Gentiles.
3. those not of His sheep Meaning unsaved Jews.
4. THE sheep, those He would die for. Meaning the entire human race.

Trying to force a meaning of any specific word in one context into another totally unrelated context is eisegesis, not exegesis.

 

[Bobber]

I've wondered somewhat about this individual Judas and what Jesus declared about him. When Jesus was speaking by revelation from the Father concerning Judas....son of perdition and other things it get's back to the subject did God need a Judas? Was there not 1001 different way of having got Jesus to the cross which really is the main reason Jesus came. I don't know. I'm thinking Jesus was speaking with an above the realm of time revelation. God saw Judas betray Jesus BUT he also saw Judas in haste wouldn't take time to cry out to God for mercy or forgiveness....Judas of course didn't understand all about how God's forgiveness through the blood of Jesus how it would all work BUT he did understand about the animal sacrifices in the temple with the Priests and from what we know he didn't even seek to have faith in that.

Quite interesting that out of all people Judas was chosen to be the treasurer the one who was over the money. Money was his very weakness which suggests to me that God had him in this position actually to maybe bring him out of his weakness. I heard this story once....in a school setting a bad kid who had a track record of stealing was suspected of stealing money from an office. They had no proof but a janitor came forth and told the Principal that the boy did indeed take the money for he saw him do it but to deal with him this way. Bring him in and tell him someone's be stealing the money BUT you are an individual we can trust to watch over the rest. He was asked if during breaks if he could keep an eye on the office. Well a day later all the money that was lost was back in the box. They put faith and confidence in him to bring him out of his bad behavior.

Could this be what God was doing in putting Judas in charge of the money to maybe bring him out of his weakness? Maybe...I don't know. If so it'd be a sign that God was seeking to work good in this individual which would have to mean he could have been saved and had his life transformed. I don't know but he rejected becoming good even when faith was put in him. He kept stealing from the money bag which Jesus knew he was doing but I'm thinking didn't tell his disciples until considerable time later. John 12:6 Well scripture says blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy.....Judas in stealing money from the bag was similar to stealing money from the poor....not a great way to inspire God to show one mercy and well other things Judas would do as well. Peter betrayed Jesus BUT he did it out of fear and terror for his life and he didn't go out and commit suicide. God still had time to work in his life. I still don't know though what I think about the Judas issue. I think its been the question of the ages.

 

[EmSw]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Go ahead and ignore my point. Can a believer bear fruit if they are out of fellowship, by way of grieving or quenching the Spirit?

Or, can a believe fail to bear fruit if they are in fellowship, by way of being filled with the Spirit and walking by His means?

These aren't answers to my questions, but just another dodge.

Can a believer be in fellowship while grieving/quenching the Spirit? yes or no.

Do you even accept that a believer can be in or out of fellowship?

Do I dodge as good as you do?

I've never read where anyone is OUT of fellowship.

 

[LoveofTruth]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Go ahead and ignore my point. Can a believer bear fruit if they are out of fellowship, by way of grieving or quenching the Spirit?

I was not ignoring your point your questions and errors are very easy to answer it’s just finding the time to sit down and address them properly takes time. Even now I am busy today and need to find more time .

But if a believer who walks in the light and by abiding in that light has fellowship (meaning partnership, participation with, a shared with) with God and knows God turns from the light and walks in darkness he no longer has the light in him and if he says he is in the light he lies and does not the truth and is not a sharer with God or a participant in the light of Christ in salvation

As John said here

1 John 1 - 6. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

So if they walk in darkness are they in the light? And if we are in the light then we are abiding in salvation in Christ through faith. If we do not abide in Christ(who is the light) we no longer have light in us or walk in that light but are in darkness.

As Jesus said “without me he can do nothing”

1 John 2 - 4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked... 9. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.”

The other aspect of the baptism with the Holy Ghost given to those that obey Jesus is another issue and to be filled with the spirit

But if some do despite unto the spirit of grace they are in danger of fire and being lost as scripture shows clearly

Hebrews 10 - 26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

So in this state, no, they are not in the light in Christ or in fellowship or partnership and participation with him. They are not a sharer with him.