Why Vaccinations Shouldn't be Optional

PsychoSarah

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Why wouldn't you? Knowing that the tests aren't available to them, choosing to create a child is functionally the same as refusing the tests. The newborn is in the same situation.
It sincerely is not the same thing. Any given time a person conceives a child, there is a chance said child will not be healthy, regardless of family history or medical care. That's a fact of life. To be a responsible parent is to do everything one CAN to ensure their child is as healthy as possible.

-_- why do you keep wanting to associate my position with class discrimination? Can't provide treatment and won't provide treatment are not one and the same.

Perhaps I should explain that motivation impacts the morality of choices with identical outcomes. So, let's say Jim Jimson kills another person. I present two situations for this action:
1. The person Jim killed attacked him without provocation, and he killed him to protect his own life.
2. Jim felt like killing someone today.

The way you are debating would suggest that Jim's motivation is irrelevant because the outcome is the same; the death of a person. Thus, regardless of motivation, the morality (or immorality) of the act does not change.

However, I would consider the motivation to be what tips the ethical scales, so to speak. I would not demand that Jim spare his attacker at the risk of his own life, and thus would not condemn his actions in that situation nearly as much as I would if he killed that person on a whim.

Same applies to vaccines, in my opinion. A person not vaccinating their child because they can't do it is not being equally irresponsible and immoral as a person not vaccinating their child because they don't want to.


We could go back and forth forever. The point is that the threshold at which I support legally mandating something is apparently higher than the threshold at which you support it. You can keep trying to make it about this, that, or the other thing, but it's the principle of the matter. The way I approach such issues is fundamentally different than the way you approach them. Providing more examples and comparisons will only further demonstrate the source of our disagreement.
Finding the source of our disagreement is a great means of connecting with other people, even if neither of us change our minds. I do not intend to go back and forth forever, and I myself can see some of the questionable implications of my own position. I do value bodily autonomy quite highly, and to me, it ends exactly where it starts to impact to bodies of other people. Unfortunately, not vaccinating does impact more than oneself. But so does not being willing to donate part of your liver to save a stranger's life. The defining distinctions between those situations is that the former results in no harm to oneself, and the other does. The complications of vaccines are too minor compared to the benefits to justify not getting them, while taking out a third of your liver is much more dangerous and does harm your health a bit for the sake of another person.

So, there's where I draw the line, so to speak. You can make health choices that affect only you, and you are not obligated to sacrifice your own health for the sake of others. Since getting vaccinated improve's the health of individuals and society as a whole, it should be a simple obligation.
 
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Allandavid

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If God is with you; why would you need a vaccine?

I'm so glad that I live in a country founded on protecting my unalienable God given right to be secure in my person.

Please keep your unvaccinated body in America...please don’t plan on any Australian vacations...thanks.
 
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ViaCrucis

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If God is with you; why would you need a vaccine?

What is it that Jesus said to the devil when the devil sought to tempt Him? Oh right, "Do not put the Lord thy God to the test."

Get yourself and your children vaccinated.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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The~Cerberus~Infinite

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So, we can have the scientific debates all day long. But if agents of the state come at me, or god help them, my family, with needles in hands, they'll be met with lead. This is non-negotiable. So, argue about it all you want. Just understand, mandatory vaccines = mandatory civil war. And I don't think they've yet invented a vaccine for lead poisoning. Not sure you'd want it if they did.
 
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War_Eagle

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Vaccines, of course, are beneficial on the individual level, since they reduce the risk of contracting illness and make it such that even if a person does, the experience isn't as severe.

However, not everyone can get vaccinated even if the injections are available. These include but are not limited to: very young babies, people allergic to components of vaccines, and people with certain disorders that impair the immune system. These people must rely upon herd immunity in order to avoid contracting various viral illnesses. But, herd immunity only works if enough people are vaccinated. Now, if every person that could be vaccinated was, herd immunity would be maintained quite well, and outbreaks of diseases such as measles and chicken pox would become exceedingly rare. Heck, when was the last time the US had an outbreak of polio?

Unfortunately, scare tactics and misinformation has resulted in many people choosing not only to not vaccinate themselves, but their children as well. As a result, outbreaks of diseases such as whooping cough have become more common, and it is the weakest and most vulnerable of us that end up paying the price.

I'd have no issue with people opting out of vaccines if that decision only impacted them individually. The fact of the matter is, anyone that chooses to not get vaccinated increases the risk of people that can't get vaccines (even if they want to) getting sick and dying.

"But Sarah, vaccines are full of toxins and cause autism and-"
They don't, and I am going to go through every single anti-vax claim I can think of.

1. Vaccines contain mercury: Vaccines used to contain a harmless mercury compound (just think about chemistry for two seconds; chlorine gas is extremely toxic, and elemental sodium reacts violently with water, but the table salt that is made of both elements combined is actually essential for people and only bad if they consume it in excess), but thanks to the outrage people showed at it being there, vaccines that used to contain it now come in variants that don't. Plus, tons of vaccines never had that compound to begin with, such as the chickenpox vaccine. In case anyone cares about some of the details, the compound is thimerosal, and it was there to help prevent the growth of any harmful microbes in the vaccine. In any case, you'd actually get more mercury from eating tuna regularly than from keeping up with vaccines, and that mercury actually is in a harmful form.
2. Vaccines cause autism: One guy lied in a study in the 1990s. That's it. Dozens of experiments have been performed and have found no link between autism and vaccines. However, many of the diseases people are vaccinated against can have the rare effect of causing lasting brain damage, and polio typically damages the nervous system severely. So, if a person doesn't want "damaged" children, the vaccines are the safer bet.
3. Vaccines contain formaldehyde, and that's a carcinogen: They actually do... as does human blood normally... and pears. The amount of formaldehyde in vaccines is trivial compared to the amount normally in human blood to begin with. That is, there isn't enough in vaccines for even a lifetime of vaccinations to make a difference.
4. This image
antivax_postcard.jpg

Oh dear, where to begin. I guess I'll address them in order of that list, minus autism because I've already addressed it. Shaken baby syndrome is the result of physical damage to a baby's brain due to the brain hitting the sides of the skull. There's no way a vaccine could do that, that's like saying a vaccine could cause your leg to break. Chronic ear infections are usually caused by bacteria, and are common in babies and young children due to the shape of a young person's ear canal and the fact that their immune systems are not done developing. Again, no means by which a vaccine could cause this. Far more kids would die from the diseases that vaccines prevent than die from the rare complications. SIDS is a term for when babies under a year old die with no detectable cause, and thus cannot be attributed to vaccines. It is notable that people that are poor tend to experience SIDS more, meaning that the people that experience it the most are people that get less vaccines, not more of them. Seizures are interesting when it comes to vaccines. There are only a few that actually have this as a potential side effect at all, and notably, the flu vaccine is not one of them. However, it is worth noting that kids that have a history of seizures in their family are more prone to this side effect, and it is more common if you get all of the ones that have this side effect at the same time, or get them along with the flu shot. So, this is a decent reason not to get your child vaccinated for, say, the mumps, if you have a family history of seizures, and you should avoid having your kid get multiple vaccines with this side effect at the same time. Here's this for anyone that want's to avoid doubling or up on seizure risks Vaccines: Vac-Gen/Side Effects
ADD, Asthma, Diabetes, and Meningitis are the same as Autism, there isn't any evidence that vaccines cause these or make them worse. As for allergies, allergic reactions to vaccines are rare, and it wouldn't make any sense for vaccines to cause allergies to chemicals they don't contain. Polio is not caused by vaccines, and the disease predates them. In fact, a severe polio outbreak in the US was only stopped thanks to a vaccine for it being produced. The only reason this isn't still a common disease in that country is due to vaccines, and I challenge any anti-vax person to actually find a reasonable explanation for the reduction in the frequency of diseases for which there are vaccines that doesn't attribute it to the vaccines.
5. Aluminum in vaccines: again, you'll eat way more of the stuff than a vaccine will give you, and the compound of aluminum in vaccines is mostly excreted by the body within just a day.
6. Too many vaccines is just as bad as too many antibiotics: Not at all. Antibiotics themselves kill bacteria, and when they are used too much or improperly, this gives rise to strains which are resistant to the antibiotic, making said antibiotic become useless. The same doesn't apply to vaccines, which actually stimulate the immune system to be able to handle the disease better on its own rather than the vaccine directly killing the virus itself. This is also why vaccines are useless to people that have already contracted the disease the vaccine helps with; it takes 2 weeks for a vaccine to get your body effectively prepared to fight of a disease, so if you contract it before then, the vaccine is of no use. So, feel free not to get the vaccine if you already have a fever and aching joints, and don't feel like you are absolutely safe to just hang out with sick people right after you get a vaccine. Furthermore, vaccines don't outright prevent disease. They make it so that when you catch it, your body fights it off very efficiently, resulting in severely reduced symptoms. "But Sarah, what about the rabies vaccine, then? You only get that after you have been exposed to the virus". Rabies is an interesting disease. It actually progresses so slowly that, if you, say, get a bite on your finger, the virus isn't going to reach the central nervous system and really wreak havoc for weeks. This actually gives the vaccine enough time to be effective even after initial exposure. This is also why people are encouraged to get the vaccine as quickly as possible, and why it is so many shots at once.

Unfortunately, vaccines for bacterial diseases are generally ineffective, and they make future diagnosis of any additional infections result in false positives for that disease, which is why there are very few vaccines for bacterial diseases.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

Then, by all means, get all the vaccines you want. Just don't tell us what to do with our bodies.
 
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The~Cerberus~Infinite

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I'd agree if only your body was affected by that choice. I have an extreme fear of needles, but I get the flu vaccine every year because if I caught the disease and spread it to my immuno-compromised grandmother, she could very well die. My choice impacts her life and recognizing that, I forgo my choice and always get the shot.

This isn't like getting an ear piercing or wearing sunscreen when going outside for extended periods of time; in this case, the decision affects the health of you and the people around you.

Arguing that people should be able to choose whether or not they get vaccines is like arguing that people should be allowed to choose to drive drunk, even though it endangers other people.

In a day and age where people cry about their right to have their existence validated for their gender pronoun, you're literally saying I don't have a right to exist without getting your number of approved shots. Like I'm livestock.

You, and what army? That's all I want to know.
 
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Archie Dupont

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I clicked this link with interest. Until I read the title of the site. Not a scientific article, not a news segment by a prominent newspaper. No, a site that uses the words "hidden truth" in it's slogan. Give me a break.

A site that is called 'Trace Amounts' by definition is biased, and can therefore not be a valid source of scientific information
 
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Archie Dupont

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Then, by all means, get all the vaccines you want. Just don't tell us what to do with our bodies.

The problem is when you get babies. I imagine you would want the same for your baby as for yourself. So if your baby is walking around school unvaccinated, your baby will probably still not get the disease due to herd immunity (you can thank us for that later). However, your baby is actively endangering our babies, and for that we don't thank you at all.

Your body your choice fair enough, but don't drag your own (and our) child down with you, just because you are enthusiastic about conspiracy theories. Are you actually willing to roll the dice with the life of your child with that?
 
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Archie Dupont

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If God is with you; why would you need a vaccine?

If God is with you; why would you stop at the edge of the cliff?
If God is with you; why would you need to wait for the green light?
If God is with you; why would you drink or eat at all?
If God is with you; why would you have surgery if your appendix ruptures?
If God is with you; why would you take medicine if you are ill?
If God is with you; why would you need a vaccine?
Oh no wait that last one makes sense, God will make sure you wont get ill, just as he saves you from the fall, traffic, starvation, other disease and traumatic injury.

God watches over you, he doesn't assist you. You have a very childish type of faith if you believe God is walking next to you saving you from every little bad thing that can happen to you. God gave us the earth (and you your life) to do with it as we please. He asks us however to do it according through his teachings and moralities. He doens't interfere with our actions and the reckoning of those actions will come when you die. If anything, God will consider your refusal of a vaccine that will prolong your (and your innocent child's) life plain right stupid. Life is the most sacred thing he gave us so you better do anything to preserve it.

If you keep your belief that God will assist you with every mundane earthly problem, you better never (again) show up at the doctors for having cancer, a broken arm or a severe cold. Don't go to the police if you get robbed, attacked or otherwise mistreated. God will take care of it right?
 
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pat34lee

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I'm not going through all of this thread or try to counter
the arguments here. Too much work. Suffice it to say that
I don't agree with many of the premises of vaccines. While
they do some good, they are like overusing antibiotics. All
that means is they are putting the problems off, maybe for
another generation, but more likely much less time.

One counter: Herd immunity from vaccines is a myth.
 
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pat34lee

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0 evidence that vaccines are harmful, aside from as very rare side effects

If that were true, then why does the government shield vaccine
makers from lawsuits and pay off people injured by vaccines out
of our tax money instead?
National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program | Official web site of the U.S. Health Resources & Services Administration

How much was paid out and why?

"According to the CDC’s website, there are “limitations in our knowledge of the risks associated with vaccines” and vaccinations have “the following problems”:

1. Limited understanding of biological processes that underlie adverse events
2. Incomplete and inconsistent information from individual reports
3. Poorly constructed research studies (not enough people enrolled for the period of time)
4. Inadequate systems to track vaccine side effects
5. Few experimental studies were published in the medical literature.”

The above very revealing admissions from the US Centers for Disease Control (CDC) completely undercut the pathological overconfidence exhibited in the extreme portions of the community pushing for mandatory vaccination."

Whopping Vaccine Injury Payouts for US Fiscal Year 2017 Released
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Vaccines are indeed helpful but there are groups of anti-vaxxers who are against them so vaccinations should still be optional when it comes to freedom of choice.
They may or may not be helpful. There are currently what, over 10,000, maybe 100,000 lawsuits because of DAMAGE by them.
Just read the list of side effects THEY admit (often over 20, including death, for just one chemical drug),
then
FOR FUN, JUST FOR FUN, go read the side effects of eating a good diet.
 
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Rubiks

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They may or may not be helpful. There are currently what, over 10,000, maybe 100,000 lawsuits because of DAMAGE by them.
Just read the list of side effects THEY admit (often over 20, including death, for just one chemical drug),
then
FOR FUN, JUST FOR FUN, go read the side effects of eating a good diet.

Protip: Nobody will take you seriously for using caps lock
 
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Rubiks

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Vaccines are indeed helpful but there are groups of anti-vaxxers who are against them so vaccinations should still be optional when it comes to freedom of choice.

Except that freedom of choice doesn't apply when it interferes with someone else's life. Refusing to take vaccines put others' lives in jeopardy.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Refusing to take vaccines put others' lives in jeopardy.
Not true, no. People do not become ill due to a deficiency of some toxin manmade.
For forty years plus, from about 1935 to 1975 basically,
the medical community knew that the so-called 'safe' vaccines were what causes sids and autism, and when they admitted this and directed their recovery activity that direction, (preventing mercury and other toxicity and chelating the toxins out of the brain) , people recovered.

This is even more true today, as people everywhere are finding out, sadly usually or often too late and too few.
 
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ananda

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Refusing to take vaccines put others' lives in jeopardy.
"Refusing to practice the Buddhist Path results in external manifestations of greed and aversion (such as theft, war, murder, etc.), which puts others' lives in jeopardy."
 
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pat34lee

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I wonder if we should have a poll to see how
many people who want to make vaccinations
mandatory also support abortion on demand.

After all, the abortion does not only affect the
woman. It ends a life, where vaccines cannot
be proven to do anything for anyone but the
one who is unlucky enough to receive it.
 
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