• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Why Vaccinations Shouldn't be Optional

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by PsychoSarah, Nov 5, 2017.

  1. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

    +1,327
    Private
    No thanks.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  2. super animator

    super animator Dreamer

    +921
    Agnostic
  3. super animator

    super animator Dreamer

    +921
    Agnostic
    Your refusal to accept reality is not our problem.
     
  4. Cearbhall

    Cearbhall Unitarian Universalist

    +5,633
    United States
    Other Religion
    Single
    I'm personally of the opinion that medical care which is purely preventative should never be forced. I'm in the United States, and I don't see a way to legally obligate people to receive preventative medical care, especially if the crux of the argument is "To protect someone else's health."

    I fully support requiring it for public school students and other people who wish to enroll in government services. But I cannot support a mandate that would require it by virtue of being a resident of the U.S.
     
  5. jayem

    jayem Naturalist

    +2,318
    Atheist
    Married
    Huh? Are we looking at the same graph? The solid line is the incidence, or new case rate which is most relevant to this discussion. It is obvious that from the 1930s, it had fluctuated up and down, but the average slope was upward. Until just after 1952, when the IPV (and later the OPV) were released. After which the incidence of new polio cases went into a precipitous and sustained decline. How else would you account for this? What else happened in the 50s-60s that would explain such a large drop in new cases of polio?
     
  6. Zoii

    Zoii Well-Known Member

    +1,366
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Oh I see youve been to one of Angela Eisenhauer or Tetyana Obukhanych's website as they both throw those articles around. Tetyana claims she has a PhD but that turned out to be a little fib.

    They both run sites wanting the banning of vaccines. Like you they have taken those articles about viral component shedding and made the massive leap to assume that means they are community carriers.

    Well I can hardly stop you reading their material and can only state what the CDC and those who actually have qualifications, that atennuated viral component shedding does not mean your going to wreak havoc in your local shopping centre. Unlike you it seems because so far you say:
    * You support that those with active and serious communicable dieases eg Ebola, have the choice of doing what they want in the community and do not support imposed isolation, even if that means the individual is infecting an entire local population
    * You believe what the campaigners of "no Vaccine" say, which is that if your vaccinated that makes you infectious.
    * You support those with active infections taking their children into child care, but you do actually support the right of refusal of that child care (or other instiution) in not allowing the infected person in.

    Fortunately the CDC and World Health Organization refute your views and do their best at debunking those attitudes; not because they have some self-inmportant ideology, but because they are seeking to improve the health of all world wide.

    Lastly youve often thrown the Lord Buddha at me in your rebuttals. You do realise the Prince actually seggreagted those infectious outside of the city walls. Well that was the practice at the time, not because the Prince was uncaring but because his intent was the safety of his community. Mind you once Lord Buddha left his worldly role behind (along with his family responsibilities), I am unsure if his attitude changed towards those infected. He was certainly though the epitome of compassion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
  7. Circumcised_Heart

    Circumcised_Heart Active Member

    361
    +431
    United States
    Christian
    Private
    US-Constitution
    If vaccination stopped polio, why was the disease declining prior to the introduction of the vaccine? Did the polio know the vaccine was coming and started to run away a few years early? :)
     
  8. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

    +1,327
    Private
    I don't know who Eisenhauer or Obukhanych is. I quoted neither, but quoted the studies themselves.

    I see no reason to trust either the CDC or the WHO. A big title means little to me.

    One reason I point out Buddhism is the Buddha's core teaching about the necessity for personal knowledge, and not blind faith in the words of others.

    I hold no blind faith in the scriptures of the CDC or WHO or their prophets, or other like-minded tyrannical organizations or individuals.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  9. Zoii

    Zoii Well-Known Member

    +1,366
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Oh come on - look I know your sticking to your point (thats fine - we dont agree and so be it) - but its a bit much to suggest that the World Health Organisation causes tyranny.
     
  10. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

    +1,327
    Private
    I never voted for it, nor do I recognize that the WHO possesses any inherent authority. I see no reason to trust it, and have reason to not trust it.
     
  11. Zoii

    Zoii Well-Known Member

    +1,366
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Can you explain why you believe it to be a tyrannical organisation and why you think it fails to be a credible authority (albeit an advisory authority as opposed to an administrative authority)
     
  12. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

    +1,327
    Private
    I already have, with a link, in the post you quoted.
     
  13. Zoii

    Zoii Well-Known Member

    +1,366
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Did you understand the issue in the article? Just in case you weren't aware, the article expressed concern over WHOs collaboration with pharmaceutical companies with the outbreak of H1N1 in hmmmm was it 2009? Anyway that opinion piece adequately addressed. Tens of thousands died in that epidemic and it rapidly spread across the world. WHO led the way coordinating CDCs in an international response aimed at containing the spread. Of course it also worked with pharmaceutical companies to escalate production of a vaccine.

    So..... This is why you call the WHO tyrannical. You and I have very different views on what tyranny is. A view such as yours can only come from someone who has led a relatively privileged life Free from political tyranny and war. Indeed count your blessings if you think a health agency is the definition of tyranny
     
  14. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

    +1,327
    Private
    I would say I understood the article better; I did not, after all, propagate false claims about "no studies/scientists linking autism to vaccines", or imply erroneously that "vaccinated are [not] carriers".

    The conflict of interest the article I linked to - explained more fully here - claims that the WHO secretly acted in such a way that benefited certain corporations, likely involving at least millions of dollars. I consider that tyrannical, and yes, perhaps we have different ideas of what is involved in "tyranny". Whether there is small or great amounts of power applied unjustly, it remains a dictionary definition of tyranny.

    I'm sorry, but you do not know me or my situation, so please refrain from speculating about either, as you've done repeatedly in this thread. Your credibility has already worn thin in this thread, as demonstrated by your numerous false claims.

    It is a definition of tyranny, as I demonstrated.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  15. ananda

    ananda Early Buddhist

    +1,327
    Private
    "Vaccination ... remained associated with NDD [neurodevelopmental disorders], while the interaction of preterm birth and vaccination was associated with a 6.6-fold increased odds of NDD ... vaccination remained significantly associated with NDD after controlling for other factors" (Pilot comparative study on the health of vaccinated and unvaccinated 6- to 12-year-old U.S. children, Journal of Translational Science, 5/2017)

    Also from the paper's data:
    • "Vaccinated children were significantly [30.1x, OR] more likely than the
      unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with ... allergic rhinitis"
    • "Vaccinated children were significantly [3.9x, OR] more likely than the
      unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with ... other allergies"
    • "Vaccinated children were significantly [2.9x, OR] more likely than the
      unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with ... eczema/atopic dermatitis"
    • "Vaccinated children were significantly [5.2x, OR] more likely than the
      unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with ... learning disability"
    • "Vaccinated children were significantly [4.2x, OR] more likely than the
      unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with ... ADHD"
    • "Vaccinated children were significantly [4.2x, OR] more likely than the
      unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with ... [Autism]"
    • "Vaccinated children were significantly [3.7x, OR] more likely than the
      unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with ... any neurodevelopmental disorder"
    • "Vaccinated children were significantly [2.4x, OR] more likely than the
      unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with ... any chronic illness"
    • Etc. re: otitis media (3.8x), pneumonia (5.9x), etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
  16. keith99

    keith99 sola dosis facit venenum

    +3,687
    Atheist
    Single
    'First Ever' Study Comparing Vaccinated and Unvaccinated Children Shows Harm from Vaccines?

    Hard to design a more biased study it would seem. But I'm sure the anti-vaxers will see it as a perfect double blind study.
     
  17. keith99

    keith99 sola dosis facit venenum

    +3,687
    Atheist
    Single
    The introduction of transistor radios?

    OK that is a joke, but it is honestly the best idea I can come up with. I was there. Born in 1953. The sanitation system is not significantly different. There were not any new public health measures put in place. In fact one faded away during that time frame. I do remember going to summer mountian camp and there being a short physical a few days before going. That was gone by the mid 70s. Most likely because the Polio vaccine had been effective.
     
  18. PsychoSarah

    PsychoSarah Chaotic Neutral

    +1,821
    Atheist
    In Relationship
    Anti-virals just aren't good enough for people to rely upon them as an effective treatment. Vaccines are our best defense against a variety of viral diseases, and whether you like it or not, they are a preventative measure.

    It protects EVERYONE'S health. The people that get vaccines benefit, as well as the people that can't get vaccines. But it only works if a large enough portion of the population gets vaccinated. If more and more people choose not to get vaccinated, even though they physically could, it puts populations on the whole more at risk of epidemics.

    Plus, people seem to not understand that it doesn't take a large portion of the population becoming ill to put the healthy in danger. Anything higher than 5% of a population becoming severely ill would bring the healthcare system to its breaking point, for example. That is, an entire country's healthcare system, assuming that it's a first world country that we are talking about. With people becoming more crowded together and mobile, it has never been easier for a pathogen to spread to millions of people.

    Think of it as like a civic duty to everyone else in the country as well as yourself.
     
  19. PsychoSarah

    PsychoSarah Chaotic Neutral

    +1,821
    Atheist
    In Relationship
    -_- did I not say that immuno-compromised people often can't get vaccinated?

    Just think this through; vaccines work because they make your immune system more prepared to fight off the pathogen before you are exposed to it. So, how would that help someone who's immune system is complete garbage? If your immune system is too weak, as is the case with very young babies (the reason why vaccines aren't given to people younger than 2 months of age), there's practically no benefit to the vaccine because there's hardly an immune system there to even produce antibodies and fight off infections.
     
  20. PsychoSarah

    PsychoSarah Chaotic Neutral

    +1,821
    Atheist
    In Relationship
    You'll notice up and down trends for polio in general looking at that graph prior to the introduction of the vaccine. However, in case you couldn't tell, the massive nosedive that followed the vaccine is nowhere to be seen prior to its introduction, and ever since, there hasn't been a massive spike in polio. Not in the US, anyways.
     
Loading...