Why Are We Divided and Can We Fix It (With the Holy Ghost)?

AlexDTX

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Which doctrine have I said is mine? If in my studies of scripture I see my church's practices are wrong I'll probably search more for another church. I do have a set of personal beliefs that I can't sway on unless God Himself told me otherwise. I don't want to use this thread to make my thoughts the "right ones". Hence why I haven't pushed my personal beliefs.
Kajiki, I am not saying your doctrines are wrong. I am saying that doctrine tends to be the main reason for denominations, and doctrines apart from those that produce life and health, are carnal; i.e., of the mind and soul not the Spirit. The doctrines that produce life come from the Spirit. Jesus said his words are Spirit and Life.

Nor am I saying that you are carnal. I am saying your question is carnal. There is unity in the Spirit and there always has been. But what you are addressing is the division of the souls. And, as I said before, that is good, too, since God can not be fully expressed in one way only, which is what being members of the body is all about - expressions of God through man.

A third consideration is that that we are not fully redeemed. We are one with God in our spirits through the new birth, but our minds (souls) need constant renewing and our bodies will not be renewed until we are glorified. That means at least one third of us (our bodies influence on the minds) remains at enmity with God. God divided the nations (that is, peoples of the world) at the tower of Babel deliberately so we could not be united in evil. This division still exists in part by the will of God upon the body of Christ in that He wants us "to mature" by seeing past this into the Spirit. This is why I say your question is carnal and not spiritual.
 
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FireDragon76

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Well said Radagast. I’ve already had people in CF tell me that I cannot be saved because I was baptized as an infant and I was sprinkled not immersed.

Exactly. I'd rather die than be baptized again. That's a barrier to unity right there, since some feel the need to insist on adult-only baptism. But, that's how I understand baptism. So compromise isn't easy at all.

Most people aren't willing to do much about compromise, because religion is just a small part of their life (and they don't care about truth as much as they think) and it serves their needs.

I do think the situation would be better if more people were educated about the history of Christianity and the world in general. So many churches in the US have started due to naive, fantastical beliefs or simple ignorance.
 
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seeking.IAM

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I think many of the things that separate us aren't essentials of Christianity or necessary for belief or salvation. Nowhere does it say you have to believe in Calvinism and Arminianism to be saved. I think what separates us is that churches have become institutionalized and we have turf issues we are unwilling to surrender.
 
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This is a very serious question I have concerning denominations. Denominations are NOT scriptural. Schisms and differing doctrines (from the one given by the Apostles in their teachings and letters) are to be avoided. How did we get to have over 3000 denominations? How could we fix this? Do people want to fix this? Could a full on ALL Christians ecumenical council occur to join us at least almost fully together? Is this idea of One Church and One Faith a pipe dream until He returns?

Computers are not Scriptural either. There is room for differences within "orthodoxy". There is room for more than one denomination under the umbrella of Christianity. The "One Church" on earth, yeah that ended up not working out so well, God only knows how many died. While I do not know how many denominations are under the umbrella of Christianity, I do know that many denominations are branches of one denomination. So I think it is a stretch to claim that there are over 3000 denominations, and or to think that every single one of them are Christian in their teachings or doctrines. How could we fix this? We cannot any more than anybody with the time and money can go through whatever seminary and be ordained and start a denomination for whatever reasons. The so called "non" denomination Churches are actually the worst, the teachings can change from pastor to pastor, from non-denom to non-denom, such that a visitor will not even know what to expect from one non-denom to another. Do people want to fix this? I think many if not most would prefer that more people believed and thought as they do, or very similarly. Now the questions you have to ask are: Is God failing to accomplish His will? Has the will of God been thwarted for centuries? The questions you ask are not only a pipe dream, but actually create more war than peace among Christians, here on earth that is. One day we can live as one, in glorified bodies, without the flesh and daily spiritual warfare. One day the Saints of past, present, and future from all nations can praise our great and glorious God in one accord. Until then, we must tarry on and keep fighting the good fight of faith in our respective locations, place in time, situations, conditions, etc.
 
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Vicomte13

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Thank you for posting this! Now if only the denominations could make that effort. I know some do but I believe Catholics are apart of this too and a lot of Protestants seem against them.

Sure, Catholics are universalists. Having everybody in the same tent is a major hope of Catholicism.
 
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Vicomte13

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That road goes both ways, friend. I remember once I included a Catholic in the fellowship of Christians and by his response I might as well have made a snide remark about his beloved mother. He them informed me that he was a Catholic and definitely not a Christian.

That was probably me. "Christian" is frequently used as a point of division by certain vocal American Protestantisms - they say, publicly, on the radio and on TV, that we are not Christians. I know, of course, that other major Protestant denominations do not say anything like that. When the ones who do make a point of it - and you will see it all over this board - I could stand there and state the obvious: We are Christians too. But sometimes I prefer to reverse the field, and say "If THAT (exclusionary, aggressive, mean-spirited theology being propounded) is what it is to be 'Christian' then thank God I'm a Catholic, not a Christian."

This is not really me stating the belief that Catholics are not Christians - we are the Mark 1, Mod 0 original form of Christian - it is to say that the "Christian" theology being propounded is so immoral and offensive that, if THAT'S what that word means, you're welcome to it, and thank goodness we're nothing like you! (Not YOU, obviously, but "you".)

When Catholics and Protestants try to have a conversation on this board and elsewhere, it's usually not a very enjoyable experience for the Catholics, which is why you don't see very many of us here.
 
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Vicomte13

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The problem with your idea is that some Christians don't consider it necessary that we be unified in the first place. Visible communion, the recognition and sharing of each others sacraments is not something everyone finds important. If we can't all agree that visible communion is necessary and that the current state of Christendom is unacceptable then calling for such a council would result in nothing.

A council was organised and used by those who accepted the same premises and beliefs. Those who attended Chalcedon accepted Nicaea and those who attended Nicaea 2 accepted Chalcedon. Unity to the extent Christians can accomplish it I think can only work between two communions officially recognising the other. As a purely hypothetical if the EO and OO were to unify that might make achieving unity stronger, especially with the RCC.

This isn't even to talk about internecine conflicts within our own churches.

I could envision a unity of sorts, of Catholics, both kinds of Orthodox, traditional Lutherans, traditional "catholic" Anglicans, and traditional Episcopalians, and even, after a fashion, Methodists. Traditional Christianities that have an ecclesial structure of bishops and priests could, I think, in time, find unity. But I think that it would take a driving need to cause the move towards unity. It would be hard, and everybody would have to give up some hobbyhorses. Right now, there just isn't any lion on the horizon scary enough to cause these Christians to reassess.

We should remember that by the time that Constantinople was ready to fall to the Turks, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox were so estranged that in the East they were saying "Better the turban of the Sultan than the miter of the Pope." I doubt they would have said that AFTER the Ottoman conquest, but maybe. The Eastern hatred of the West was very deep back then. It is not as fresh right now, but there is no great desire for reconciliation if it means pretty much changing anything at all. I don't sense any greater urge for reunion in the West. I don't sense any desire on the part of the Catholics to change anything important.

So I'd say that the prospects of reunion are dim - possible with churches that have bishops, but unlikely in my lifetime. Beyond that? I think the end of the world will come first...or the world will largely convert to Islam or secularism and Christianity will recede the way that ancient paganism did.
 
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disciple1

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This is a very serious question I have concerning denominations. Denominations are NOT scriptural. Schisms and differing doctrines (from the one given by the Apostles in their teachings and letters) are to be avoided. How did we get to have over 3000 denominations? How could we fix this? Do people want to fix this? Could a full on ALL Christians ecumenical council occur to join us at least almost fully together? Is this idea of One Church and One Faith a pipe dream until He returns?
John chapter 10 verse 27
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

I know the bible is true it's only understood by going through it many times over many years, but their could be followers of Jesus in any group.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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The main point I was trying to make is that there are "false teachings" being taught in "churches" and it is each of our responsibility to compare all teachings with scripture to determine if that is occurring and/or where that is occurring. The "true church" is the "church" that Jesus built on himself, His teachings of which the Apostles also taught (Jesus teachings).

I think this where there can be no reconciliation because there are two completely different ideas about what the Church is. Is the Church merely the teachings of Christ which the Apostles taught or is the communion of the Apostles as well? Does the Church go beyond true teaching to include the community as I and I would say most Christians believe? Apostolocity is not merely the true teaching of the faith it is also the real communal connection between people first in the Apostles with Christ and through those the Apostles likewise formed communal attachments too.

If only true doctrine, correct thought, is what matters then unity is not important, only adherence to a set of ideas which makes Christianity more a Philosophy than it does a whole new way of life which governs our relationship with others as well as our personal beliefs.

Matthew 16:18

"their communion was non unessential to his Gospel"

"their" = the saints and apostles absolutely essential

"Church at Jerusalem"

1 Corinthians 10:1-2

2To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

The "church" = built on Christ Jesus (His church) in many "physical" locations.

God Bless

Now I'm not exactly sure what you mean by these quotations. Can you clarify your thoughts on the texts you have quoted? I know my opinion of them but what is yours?
 
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FireDragon76

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I think this where there can be no reconciliation because there are two completely different ideas about what the Church is. Is the Church merely the teachings of Christ which the Apostles taught or is the communion of the Apostles as well? Does the Church go beyond true teaching to include the community as I and I would say most Christians believe?

I mentioned earlier alot of energy would be saved by Christians if they simply understood more about history and the world in general, and this is a good example.

Most historic churches do have that belief, that Christianity is not merely abstract doctrinal agreement, but also shared community practices.

Christianity is an historic religion. If you don't have some history about why you believe what you do, I find it hard to take your beliefs seriously as a Christian. There's a difference between truth and opinion, and it's very rare that one individual's opinion is the truth.
 
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FireDragon76

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We should remember that by the time that Constantinople was ready to fall to the Turks, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox were so estranged that in the East they were saying "Better the turban of the Sultan than the miter of the Pope." I doubt they would have said that AFTER the Ottoman conquest, but maybe. The Eastern hatred of the West was very deep back then. It is not as fresh right now, but there is no great desire for reconciliation if it means pretty much changing anything at all.

If you've seen Zorba the Greek, with the xenophobia present in the Cretan peasants, you can understand perfectly what motivated the failure of the Council of Florence. Many Orthodox have made a lifestyle out of xenophobia and rigidity. People were slaughtered for how many times you say "Alleluia" in the liturgy and how many fingers you use to cross yourself, differences that persist to this day.

I don't sense any greater urge for reunion in the West. I don't sense any desire on the part of the Catholics to change anything important.

Given that a large number of Orthodox are in Russia, and the Russian Church is dominated by a corrupt regime that uses religion for political ends, I'm not sure reunion would be such a good thing anyways. It would mean compromising far more than a few relatively insignificant doctrines.

I think the end of the world will come first...or the world will largely convert to Islam or secularism and Christianity will recede the way that ancient paganism did.

Secularism is the most likely threat. I do not think Islam is much of a threat in the long term, as the bulk of how it is practiced will not withstand modernity. I actually could see a liberal form of Islam surviving, but it would resemble something more akin to Unitarian Universalists than it does today.

I suspect all religions are going to be more liberal and tolerant in the future, or we will destroy ourselves with war and environmental degradation. I don't see much alternative. As long as we focus on the petty and picayune in matters of faith, there is a real risk of greed and tribalism ruling the day.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Remember that one externally imposed uniformity by religious leaders would not be the mind of God; it's for every believer to search the Scriptures personally; and for every congregation large or small to take responsibility before God. Letting someone else impose uniformity on oneself and one's congregation is a cop out and would have little to do with having one's conscience stirred by the Holy Spirit about the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
So you yourself just proclaimed for all of Christendom :)

Not that I necessarily disagree with your blanket statement :)

I just urge caution, that everyone everybody everywhere is always so fervently sure of their own Beliefs as "obviously True" that they try to de facto impose the same on others, so as to reject fellowship at some level with others who don't agree.

But without myself browbeating anyone either, I feel that the best anyone could do may well be to simply "go all the way back to barebones basics" and define a minimal common ground, e.g. "Jesus existed, he was from Nazareth in Galilee in the 1st century, he was the long-previously-Prophesied Messiah central to Divine Plan in terrestrial human affairs, the gist of what he communicated to humans on Earth under "Holy Spirit" as the "terrestrial mouth-piece of God in heaven" is accurately recorded in the Gospels".

As to theologically nuanced issues of interpretation, people may have to "agree to disagree" and avoid any knee-jerk reactive desires to Slander & Accuse others as "heretics".

"If you ain't got anything good to say, say nothing at all."
Didn't everybody hear that one already? How will humans on Earth appear to "God in heaven" if they cannot even accomplish that much?

Agree on the absolute basics, and generally agree to disagree on the rest (within some reasonably wide latitudes)? And (try to) avoid succumbing to Temptations to Slander & Accuse.

Or not (?)
 
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Ron Gurley

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1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree
and that there be no divisions among you,
but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Jude 1:19
These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.
 
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Archivist

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1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree
and that there be no divisions among you,
but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Jude 1:19
These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.

Again, we have some on CF who will tell you that Christians must be baptized by immersion, that infants cannot be baptized, that Christians cannot drink alcohol, that women cannot serve as pastors, that the KJV is the only valid translation. How do we avoid division when some set these out as absolutes?
 
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Erik Nelson

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1 Corinthians 1:10
Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree
and that there be no divisions among you,
but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Jude 1:19
These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.
St. Jude wrote those words 2000 years ago. I'm not arguing with their general accuracy & applicability even (still) today.

May I add 2 Thess 2:11 to the mix? In the End Times, God will send a "deluding influence" deep into the hearts of much of humanity. If so, then divisions today may due to both worldly-minded individuals passively "devoid of the Spirit" (Jude 1:19) and individuals actively animated by a powerful "deluding influence" (2 Thess 2:11) ultimately from "God in heaven".

What I'm trying to suggest, is that it may not merely be "bad" (Jude 1:19), but could possibly be both "bad" and "worse" (Jude 1:19 & 2 Thess 2:11).

The early Church in the Apostolic Era of St. Jude's Epistle was able to grow & maintain a burgeoning sense of unity. And they generally "only" had to deal with "un-Divinely-animated" individuals dominated by "mere" mortal greed (Jude 1:19). They may not have, generally, had to deal with any sort of "glowing eyes syndrome" (2 Thess 2:11) so to speak.

If Christians today do in fact face an additional "glowing eyes" factor in play (2 Thess 2:11) at present, then that could explain why Christians do appear to be far less able to maintain unity, incidentally exactly as End Times Prophesies predicted 2000 years ago.

Perhaps everyone an agree, that any humans over-looking and otherwise failing to account for "Divine Spiritual Forces" at work will wind up wildly miscalculating & mis-appraising their situations?
 
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eleos1954

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I think this where there can be no reconciliation because there are two completely different ideas about what the Church is. Is the Church merely the teachings of Christ which the Apostles taught or is the communion of the Apostles as well? Does the Church go beyond true teaching to include the community as I and I would say most Christians believe? Apostolocity is not merely the true teaching of the faith it is also the real communal connection between people first in the Apostles with Christ and through those the Apostles likewise formed communal attachments too.

If only true doctrine, correct thought, is what matters then unity is not important, only adherence to a set of ideas which makes Christianity more a Philosophy than it does a whole new way of life which governs our relationship with others as well as our personal beliefs.

Now I'm not exactly sure what you mean by these quotations. Can you clarify your thoughts on the texts you have quoted? I know my opinion of them but what is yours?

***

It comes down to "words" and their meanings and how they are used in the context of what is being said. The Bible was originally written in Hebrew (OT) and Greek (NT). These languages were and are a lot more fluent/descriptive as compared to English.

What I do when studying the Bible, is look up word in the original languages to determine the definition of what that word means in the original language (i am so thankful for the internet in order to do this quickly). The meaning of words in languages can change or be added to, especially the English language.

Philosophy - a system of principles for guidance in practical affairs. (there are other definitions, you can go look them up). However, but "what" is philosophy based on?

Regarding the Bible = Those who believe the Holy Bible is the Word of God then it is way way way more than something that governs our relationship(s) with others (meaning mankind). Believing God is the creator. This belief then guides a person based on that belief. It is a historical book. It is also a prophetic book (predicting the future) and in order to do this accurately is beyond amazing. In the end, I really do believe it boils down to what one believes about creation. If God then the Holy Bible, if not God then one can believe, rationalize or use philosophy based on anything.

If God is the Creator, then what was/is his purpose for creating us? If not God then no particular purpose for us being here ... we are just are here.

We humans have a lot of questions about life and are always searching for answers, that's the way we were created .... or not .... we still search for answers. We are very complex and ponder complex things.

Complex: So complicated or intricate as to be hard to understand or deal with:

So, because I believe the Holy Bible is the inspired word of God (all of it) and that is where my conversations comes from. I study it continually to try and understand what is it my creator wants me to know .... why? Because He created me with reasons ... What are those reasons? What is the truth of what He is saying in His Word?

Of course there is a lot more, these are just a few statements.

Back to our topic of discussion:

According to the word "church" biblically it is the "church" that Jesus built on Himself, His teachings. His "church" it is the people that follow His teachings. Those people are found in many denominations (organized church systems) and also not in organized church systems, people who do not attend "organized church" yet study His Word.

With Christianity there are so many different denominations (church systems) because all do not agree on "words" and what those words really mean and how they are applied to us (mankind). But that's a good thing, because it keeps all looking, discussing, searching Gods word, searching for knowledge, understanding of our creator and ourselves.

Daniel 12:4

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Yes, knowledge shall be increased on many levels. But what is true?

30 As Jesus spoke these things, many believed in Him. 31 So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

And so it is ... we all run to and fro, a slow process whether one believes in God or not. ;o)

free - Greek

eleutheros: free, i.e. not a slave or not under restraint
Original Word: ἐλεύθερος, έρα, ερον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: eleutheros
Phonetic Spelling: (el-yoo'-ther-os)
Short Definition: free, delivered from obligation
Definition: free, delivered from obligation.
HELPS Word-studies
1658 eleútheros (an adjective) – properly, free (liberated), unbound (unshackled); (figuratively) free to realize one's destiny in Christ.

Amen.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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This is a very serious question I have concerning denominations. Denominations are NOT scriptural. Schisms and differing doctrines (from the one given by the Apostles in their teachings and letters) are to be avoided. How did we get to have over 3000 denominations? How could we fix this? Do people want to fix this? Could a full on ALL Christians ecumenical council occur to join us at least almost fully together? Is this idea of One Church and One Faith a pipe dream until He returns?
Jesus continues to build His church. Amen and amen.
.
What's happening is kind of like when God moves in my life. There is this thing God does that is totally amazing, so my body (the flesh) finds a way to imitate it in a zombie Adam kind of way, and sometimes it's not so easy to figure out which is which until the fruit is evident. In the course of a life, I can change based on the discernment process God teaches me through. However, with denominations, which are an example of this phenomena on a larger scale: By the time the fruit is evident, generations pass, people are born into the teachings and continue along their own path. So the issue isn't so easy to resolve, but as Paul alluded to in one of his letters, if we're mature enough in Christ ... then I am this teacher or I am of this seminary won't matter, and the body will be able to take a decisive direction as one organism .. unlike now.
.
That being said However, Jesus continues to build His church. Amen and amen.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Response to Post #95: Q: " How do we avoid division when some set these out as absolutes? ".

A: It is impossible. True believers are guided by God the Holy Spirit into the truth and discern such false doctrines.

John 8:32
and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” (from error!)

John 14:17
that is the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
 
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daleksteve

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Again, we have some on CF who will tell you that Christians must be baptized by immersion, that infants cannot be baptized, that Christians cannot drink alcohol, that women cannot serve as pastors, that the KJV is the only valid translation. How do we avoid division when some set these out as absolutes?

They not absolutes though and the reason why having various denominations is such a good thing.

A lot of churches have some silly doctrines and rules just so they can control people.

Any doctrine that discriminates is man made and not of god.
 
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