Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

[Der Alte]

. . . Whenever Jesus talks about Hell, he uses the word Gehenna, which is the Greek name for the Valley of Hinnom, a valley outside of old Jerusalem that at the time of Christ was the city dump. It was a repulsive place of utter destruction, isolation, and an unquenchable fire (that's how they would dispose of the trash). Jesus used this as a metaphor because there was no concept of Hell in first century Judaism. Whenever Paul talks about Hell, he references Greek mythology in Hades and Tartarus (the closest thing in scripture to our current understanding of Hell), but since he doesn't believe in Greek mythology, he's using it as a metaphor. ...

I'm only going to address this excerpt from your post in so doing I think I will have also addressed your other points. There is some internet gossip floating that is often quoted as fact. That is when Jesus referred to Gehenna He was referring to "the Valley of Hinnom, a valley outside of old Jerusalem that at the time of Christ was the city dump. It was a repulsive place of utter destruction, isolation, and an unquenchable fire (that's how they would dispose of the trash)." This is totally false, see archaeological articles at the end of this post.
.....Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Gehinnom is Hebrew for Valley of Hinnom. It is transliterated as Gehenna in the 225 BC LXX. Sheol is translated "hades" in the LXX and the NT.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposedly biased Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online​

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. Jesus criticized and corrected the Jews a number of times about their false belifs. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/ ​

 

[Der Alte]

The best and most succinct answer is provided by famed evangelical author, C. S. Lewis: "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." Sinners make some choices and avoid better choices that determine their postmortem fate. But even after death, they can in principle make redemptive choices. Until they do, they in effect gravitate to their own Hell based on the principle like attracts like (Matthew 7:1-2). A blizzard of NT texts can be marshalled implying that God's love never permanently abandons the sinner after death. I'll postpone discussion of these texts for another thread. Suffice to point out here that in both Hebrew ("olam") and Greek ("aionios"), the words translated "eternal" just mean "for a long time" or "age-long," not "eternal."

A lot of people repeat what they have read on various forums and blogs about the meaning of the words "olam" and "aionios. I am reminded of something I read on the internet not so long ago."Abraham Lincoln once said don't believe everything you read on the internet."
Here are a few verses, where "olam" occurs from the 1917 Jewish Publication Society English translation of the OT.

Genesis 3:22
(22) And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.'[עֹלָם/olam]
Exodus 12:24
(24) And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.[עֹלָם/olam]
Leviticus 25:23
(23) And the land shall not be sold in perpetuity [עֹלָם/olam]; for the land is Mine; for ye are strangers and settlers with Me.
Numbers 18:8
(8) And the LORD spoke unto Aaron: 'And I, behold, I have given thee the charge of My heave-offerings; even of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel unto thee have I given them for a consecrated portion, and to thy sons, as a due for ever.[עֹלָם/olam]
Deuteronomy 15:17
(17) then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it through his ear and into the door, and he shall be thy bondman for ever. [עֹלָם/olam] And also unto thy bondwoman thou shalt do likewise.​

I am quite sure the Jewish scholars who translated the JPS OT in 1917 knew the meaning of "olam" therefore the word must mean "for ever."
.....What about those times it is used to mean something which is not eternal? That is called hyperbole.
.....In English we do the same thing e.g. a large person is said to be as big as a house. When Jesus called Peter "satan" and a "stone" he was not actually satan or a stone. When Jesus called Herod an old fox, he was not actually a fox. When Jesus called two of His disciples "sons of thunder" they were not literally procreated or conceived by thunder. All hyperbole. There is an actual satan, Peter is not him. There are actual stones, Peter is not one. There are actual foxes, Herod was not one. There is actual thunder but Jesus disciples were not literal sons of thunder.

 

[ClementofA]

A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would suffer endless torments in fire, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is a sadist for all eternity.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[SnowyMacie]

I'm only going to address this excerpt from your post in so doing I think I will have also addressed your other points. There is some internet gossip floating that is often quoted as fact. That is when Jesus referred to Gehenna He was referring to "the Valley of Hinnom, a valley outside of old Jerusalem that at the time of Christ was the city dump. It was a repulsive place of utter destruction, isolation, and an unquenchable fire (that's how they would dispose of the trash)." This is totally false, see archaeological articles at the end of this post.
.....Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Gehinnom is Hebrew for Valley of Hinnom. It is transliterated as Gehenna in the 225 BC LXX. Sheol is translated "hades" in the LXX and the NT.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposedly biased Christian translators.

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online​

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. Jesus criticized and corrected the Jews a number of times about their false belifs. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/ ​

That exegesis has one fatal flaw: The majority Jewish people do not and have never believed in Hell as it is understood in Christianity, you are assuming that Sheol is just a Hebrew word for Hell, that is not true. Sheol is more equivalent to Greek Hades, which is also not a place of everlasting punishment, but more just kind of a gloomy realm of the dead. It was not until Zoroastrianism and later Hellenization that it ideas of a punishment in the afterlife came into being.

Secondly, the exegesis that Jesus was being metaphorical does not hinge on the fact over whether or not it was a city dump because of the numerous references in the Old Testament to the valley being cursed, and a place of death and destruction. In Jeremiah, he warns of invasion to where the bodies will be thrown into the Valley of Hinnom because there won't be room elsewhere. Fire comes into it during Isaiah 66, When "look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched (ou sbesthēsetai), and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." It's easy to equate this image to the same image given by Jeremiah about dead bodies outside of Jerusalem. Jesus almost directly quotes this passage in Mark 9. Even if it is not the city dump, there is still a huge literary correlation between the words of the prophets about the destruction of the Jews, and what Jesus is preaching in those passages. The valley was synonymous with destruction and death, not everlasting torment.

Thirdly, the term "everlasting" can be, but does not necessarily have to be the way that "aionion" is translated. The most accurate and honest translation I've seen is "an indefinite amount of time." The root word of it is "age", there is not necessarily a reason why the passages that talk about Hell it's everlasting, but in other passages ages seem to end that use the same word.

Early Christians also did not talk about Hell like we talk about Hell, especially how most Westerners do in the West (The Eastern Orthodox have never understood Hell to be a literal place of fiery torment). The concept of it was there, we can see that Paul referenced Hades and Tartarus, but again, that's symbolic because I don't think Paul believed Greek mythology.

 

[GingerBeer]

How about eternal torment for universalism?

 

[surrender1]

I'd be afraid to answer...it doesn't matter, could be a huge difference.

A huge difference? On a scale of 1-10 of torture, a 1 is still torture. LOL

I took it as a parable and representative of hell, but I couldn't prove that's a fact so...have to think on that one.

What I'm saying is that even if it is representative of hell, it can't be representative of the final punishment because the rich man's family is still alive living their lives out on earth, which means the resurrection and final judgment have not yet taken place.

 

[surrender1]

are we making our decision based on the biblical data or on what we personally deem to be just or acceptable to ourselves?

You'd have to ask each individual that.

 

[surrender1]

It's a real Jesus thing. "they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." said Jesus (Matthew 25:46) And Jesus also said "The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment ... I am in anguish in this flame." (Luke 16:22, 24)

The parable can't be about the final judgment (i.e. "eternal punishment") because the rich man's family is still living out their lives on earth so the resurrection has not yet taken place, so no final judgment has taken place.

 

[GingerBeer]

The parable can't be about the final judgment (i.e. "eternal punishment") because the rich man's family is still living out their lives on earth so the resurrection has not yet taken place, so no final judgment has taken place.

The story of the rich man and Lazareus can be about individual judgement. The last judgement is for the end of the ages. But upon death each person is judged are they not? (Heb 9:27)

 

[Lazarus Short]

How about eternal torment for universalism?

Do you mean going to Hell because you KNOW the place is a myth? Absurd.

 

[surrender1]

The story of the rich man and Lazareus can be about individual judgement. The last judgement is for the end of the ages. But upon death each person is judged are they not? (Heb 9:27)

I don't know. It doesn't say. It just says it happens *after* we die.

 

[surrender1]

So far almost 50% of the people in this vote have voted "eternal conscious torment." Can you explain how that view of God is different than say a father who tells his child he must love him back and if not, he will lock him in the back room away from him and he assures his child that this will be like being tormented in flames?

 

[Kenny'sID]

A huge difference? On a scale of 1-10 of torture, a 1 is still torture. LOL

And a 10 is ten times worse.

What I'm saying is that even if it is representative of hell, it can't be representative of the final punishment because the rich man's family is still alive living their lives out on earth, which means the resurrection and final judgment have not yet taken place.

I see what you're saying, but it doesn't matter, if Hell is what we suffer in the end/the final punishment, and as far as I know it is... then they are one in the same, that is if it's representative of Hell.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

You'd have to ask each individual that.

I did

 

[ClementofA]

A lot of people repeat what they have read on various forums and blogs about the meaning of the words "olam" and "aionios. I am reminded of something I read on the internet not so long ago."Abraham Lincoln once said don't believe everything you read on the internet."
Here are a few verses, where "olam" occurs from the 1917 Jewish Publication Society English translation of the OT.
Genesis 3:22
(22) And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.'[עֹלָם/olam]
Exodus 12:24
(24) And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.[עֹלָם/olam]
Leviticus 25:23
(23) And the land shall not be sold in perpetuity [עֹלָם/olam]; for the land is Mine; for ye are strangers and settlers with Me.
Numbers 18:8
(8) And the LORD spoke unto Aaron: 'And I, behold, I have given thee the charge of My heave-offerings; even of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel unto thee have I given them for a consecrated portion, and to thy sons, as a due for ever.[עֹלָם/olam]
Deuteronomy 15:17
(17) then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it through his ear and into the door, and he shall be thy bondman for ever. [עֹלָם/olam] And also unto thy bondwoman thou shalt do likewise.
I am quite sure the Jewish scholars who translated the JPS OT in 1917 knew the meaning of "olam" therefore the word must mean "for ever."
.....What about those times it is used to mean something which is not eternal? That is called hyperbole.
.....In English we do the same thing e.g. a large person is said to be as big as a house. When Jesus called Peter "satan" and a "stone" he was not actually satan or a stone. When Jesus called Herod an old fox, he ws not actually a fox. When Jesus called two of His disciples "sons of thunder" they were not literally procreated or conceived by thunder. All hyperbole.


...

Many scholars disagree with your opinion.

Even the few verses you quoted from the JPS do not all include the meaning of "for ever".

Universalism is Not in the Bible

 

[surrender1]

And a 10 is ten times worse.

So what if there's a difference?! It's still TORTURE! LOL

I see what you're saying, but it doesn't matter, if Hell is what we suffer in the end/the final punishment, and as far as I know it is... then they are one in the same, that is if it's representative of Hell.

I suppose. But that means that when the wicked dies, he's judged, sent to hell, and then later he's raised to life just to be sent back to hell. Pointless.

Anyway, this is a parable, which means it has a central teaching point in mind, and it's not about an afterlife. This parable is in a line-up with other parables (lost sheep, lost coin, lost son, and the shrewd accountant) and all have to do with wasting one's gifts and responsibilities, and Jesus used a common storytelling device from Jewish folklore, the reversal of fortunes, to do this.

 

[jeffinjapan]

Which one do you believe will happen at the final punishment?
...a fire that purifies?

While you can make a case for eternal torment, universal reconciliation, or annihilation with scripture, the case for universal reconciliation has the most solid biblical foundation. After all...Saint Paul was a universalist!

Eternal torment makes God out to be a psychotic monster, and annihilation means that He just gave up.

Only universal reconciliation is consistent with the over-arching theme of scripture. Only universal reconciliation is consistent with the notion that God is love. Only universal reconciliation shows that the passion of Christ was truly victorious and that sin and death were truly destroyed.

The problem with universal reconciliation is that many think it is too good to be true. God can't possibly be that loving, that compassionate. After all, what about justice.

God's mercy IS justice!

Stop being afraid and be free. Be a Christian because God is love and you want to spread that love, not because you don't won't to go to hell.

 

[Der Alte]

That exegesis has one fatal flaw: The majority Jewish people do not and have never believed in Hell as it is understood in Christianity, you are assuming that Sheol is just a Hebrew word for Hell, that is not true. Sheol is more equivalent to Greek Hades, which is also not a place of everlasting punishment, but more just kind of a gloomy realm of the dead. It was not until Zoroastrianism and later Hellenization that it ideas of a punishment in the afterlife came into being.

Perhaps you should go back and read my post. What I posted was not my "exegesis" from anything I quoted from two historical Jewish sources the Jewish Encyclopedia [JE] and the Talmud. Your assumptions/presuppositions about Zoroastrianism and Hellenization are not relevant without credible, verifiable, historical evidence similar to what I have provided. I quoted from the sources I did not add or change anything. Please read this which I quoted.

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);​

Note, "soon" after children were sacrificed to the deity Moloch in Gehinnom, more than 700 years BC, "Gehenna" soon became a figurative equivalent to hell.

Secondly, the exegesis that Jesus was being metaphorical does not hinge on the fact over whether or not it was a city dump because of the numerous references in the Old Testament to the valley being cursed, and a place of death and destruction.

The post I was responding to posted the internet version of the history of Gehenna I posted the archaeological evidence disproving that version.

In Jeremiah, he warns of invasion to where the bodies will be thrown into the Valley of Hinnom because there won't be room elsewhere. Fire comes into it during Isaiah 66, When "look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched (

ou sbesthēsetai), and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." It's easy to equate this image to the same image given by Jeremiah about dead bodies outside of Jerusalem. Jesus almost directly quotes this passage in Mark 9. Even if it is not the city dump, there is still a huge literary correlation between the words of the prophets about the destruction of the Jews, and what Jesus is preaching in those passages. The valley was synonymous with destruction and death, not everlasting torment.

Whether you believe it or not is not really relevant. The historical evidence I posted documented the fact that the ancient Jews believed in a place of eternal, everlasting, unending fiery punishment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and sheol/hades

Thirdly, the term "everlasting" can be, but does not necessarily have to be the way that "aionion" is translated. The most accurate and honest translation I've seen is "an indefinite amount of time." The root word of it is "age", there is not necessarily a reason why the passages that talk about Hell it's everlasting, but in other passages ages seem to end that use the same word.

How many semesters of Koine Greek have you had? I studied Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level more than 3 decades ago.
Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.
Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown
Aristotle
peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios
Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.
0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY
αιωνιος
• Strong's - Greek 165
• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds
• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);
• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…
aion - αιων - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• aionion, aionios – αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον
- Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System. ​

What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Early Christians also did not talk about Hell like we talk about Hell, especially how most Westerners do in the West (The Eastern Orthodox have never understood Hell to be a literal place of fiery torment). The concept of it was there, we can see that Paul referenced Hades and Tartarus, but again, that's symbolic because I don't think Paul believed Greek mythology

I appreciate you sharing your unsupported opinion what you "think" Paul believed but I do not see any evidence of any kind supporting these assertions.

 

[Kiwi Christian]

EVERLASTING TORMENT means EVERLASTING TORMENT

 

[Der Alte]

Many scholars disagree with your opinion.

I don't care. If you, can provide credible, verifiable, historical evidence not what some modern scholar says.

Even the few verses you quoted from the JPS do not all include the meaning of "for ever".
[Random website link omitted Not credible evidence.]

Wrong!