Eternal Torment, Annihilation or Universal Reconciliation?

[Kenny'sID]

Whatever it is, it's *unending*. So it doesn't really matter if it's "a little torture" or "a lot of torture" because it's *eternal*. Agreed?

I'd be afraid to answer...it doesn't matter, could be a huge difference.

That wasn't the final punishment. Remember, his family were still going on with life while he was in his torment? So the resurrection and final judgment had not taken place yet so he couldn't not have been in the lake of fire and experiencing "eternal torment."

I took it as a parable and representative of hell, but I couldn't prove that's a fact so...have to think on that one.

 

[JoeP222w]

The Bible does not teach annihilation or universal reconciliation.

There is also an implication that "eternal torment" is unjust. It is not. There are no innocent people in Hell. God, the just judge of the universe will do what is right. He will punish those who have violated His perfect standard and refuse to trust in His gift of grace in Jesus Christ. The Potter has the right to do with the pot as He chooses. God is sovereign, not man. Because God is infinitely worthy, honorable, and righteous, when a person sins against God, no matter how small we think the sin is, the crime is against the infinite God, so for the punishment to fit the crime, Hell must be eternal. If Hell is not eternal, either through annihilation or reconciliation (after judgment), then God would be unjust, and this is not biblical.

Romans 9:13-23 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

 

[DamianWarS]

I think they are eternally gone meaning that once the fire of hell consumes them that's it, they are gone forever and ever.

I think the notion that they get tortured forever is brought on by the atheists who despise our way of life and want to make us look bad by any means possible and to make themselves look better / feel better in comparison. But we all know that's just smoke in mirrors with a little bit of faith.

This notion of being tortured forever is the from the description of the devil's punishment, also in the lake of fire. Rev 20:10 "and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." The reasoning is if the devil/false prophets are thrown in the lake of fire and tormented forever then the those not found in the book of life are also thrown in the lake of fire will have the same fate.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

are we making our decision based on the biblical data or on what we personally deem to be just or acceptable to ourselves?

 

[GingerBeer]

Is eternal fire a real Catholic thing?

It's a real Jesus thing. "they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." said Jesus (Matthew 25:46) And Jesus also said "The rich man also died and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment ... I am in anguish in this flame." (Luke 16:22, 24)

 

[aiki]

I wrote the following blog post in answer to this question:


In Defense Of The Doctrine Of Eternal, Conscious Torment In Hell. | Christian Forums

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

Which one do you believe will happen at the final punishment?

A fire that torments, a fire that consumes or a fire that purifies?

The three main views are eternal conscious torment where the unrepentant are tormented by the fire for all eternity, annihilation where the unrepentant are punished according to wrongs committed and then annihilated by the fire, and universal reconciliation where the unrepentant go through a fire that burns impurities away leading to eventual repentance and reconciliation.

Eternal torment

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

I believe the eternal lake of fire will be a place of eternal torment to those who are cast into it at the final judgement..

Hell is not the eternal lake of fire.. Hell is a temporary prison for the spirits of sinners where they are held awaiting the day of judgement..

So in the stoy of lazerus in the Bible the rich man was in hell.. but he was not in the eternal lake of fire..

Hell being cast into the lake of fire at the final judgement::

Revelation 20: KJV
12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. {13} And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Amen couldn't have said it better

 

[Silmarien]

Probably Annihilationism, hopefully Universalism was my choice. Even if it's eternal punishment, I really don't understand why people insist upon literal fire. Parables, rhetorical devices, and so forth and so on, so unless we think everyone's going to transform into actual sheep and goats at the final judgment, I think we're being a bit inconsistent about which parts we choose to take literally and which ones we don't.

I think the notion that they get tortured forever is brought on by the atheists who despise our way of life and want to make us look bad by any means possible and to make themselves look better / feel better in comparison. But we all know that's just smoke in mirrors with a little bit of faith.

Can't blame the atheists for the concept of eternal punishment. That's a self-inflicted wound.

 

[Rajni]

I was acquainted with all three, and never was too impressed with option four: reincarnation.

For the longest time I didn't accept the idea of reincarnation, but nowadays it seems just as viable an option as any other (not to mention that, out of all the scenarios, more tangible events regarding it have occurred here and now that, at the very least, makes one wonder).

Other than that, though, to answer the OP, I fall into the Universal Reconciliation camp.

 

[SnowyMacie]

I voted other...

I don't see Hell as much as a punishment for sin so much as the result of what happens when a person completely and totally rejects the love of God. I think the view of Hell as punishment is human reasoning and our human understanding and notion of justice onto God. First off, Hell is not a place, well it's really not a separate place but I'l get to that later, of "punishment" to begin with, but simply the result of a person's complete and total rejection of God. The reason why I don't believe in eternal conscience torment is because that's not how the Bible talks about it.When you take a look at all of scripture, the final destination for Christians isn't Heaven, it's Earth. Revelation, while highly symbolic, never says the Earth is going to be destroyed, but that the Earth will be restored and Heaven and Earth will become one. There, those that are saved in Christ will live and reign with God forever. What about those that were not saved in Christ, where will they go? Nowhere. Hell is being tormented by being in the presence of God while unable (willing or not, I'm a bit unsure as to which is true) accept God's love, thus being in communion and fellowship with him. In other words, the saved and unsaved are in the presence of God; to the righteous, it is comfort, to the wicked, agony.

Whenever Jesus talks about Hell, he uses the word Gehenna, which is the Greek name for the Valley of Hinnom, a valley outside of old Jerusalem that at the time of Christ was the city dump. It was a repulsive place of utter destruction, isolation, and an unquenchable fire (that's how they would dispose of the trash). Jesus used this as a metaphor because there was no concept of Hell in first century Judaism. Whenever Paul talks about Hell, he references Greek mythology in Hades and Tartarus (the closest thing in scripture to our current understanding of Hell), but since he doesn't believe in Greek mythology, he's using it as a metaphor. These metaphors are all talking about destruction, isolation, and despair. It's even described as "weeping and gnashing of teeth". When you look closer at the gospels regarding Hell, the wicked aren't in this self-destructive, isolated torment by demons in this completely separate place, they're cast out into the darkness, just outside seemingly. They cannot stand to be in the presence of God and so they are cast out into darkness, tormented by being unable to accept God's love and be in communion with him.

This ultimate, deep, and complete rejection of God's love and desire to be in communion with him causes humans to stop being image of God, and I believe it will result in them become less and less human to the point they ultimately destroy themselves. As stated constantly throughout scripture, the wages of sin is death. The Lake of Fire is called "the second death." I do not know how long this process will take, the Greek word for eternity is more closely translated to "an indefinite amount of time."

Personally, I hope universal reconciliation, I am not sure if that will the case, not necessarily because God cannot, but because those who are in Hell have such a deep rejection that truly cannot be redeemed, they are beyond hope. Here's the best videos I've seen on Hell...

 

[SnowyMacie]

For the longest time I didn't accept the idea of reincarnation, but nowadays it seems just as viable an option as any other (not to mention that, out of all the scenarios, more tangible events regarding it have occurred here and now that, at the very least, makes one wonder).

Other than that, though, to answer the OP, I fall into the Universal Reconciliation camp.

I've always been intrigued by the concept of reincarnation, but I've never been able to reconcile it with scripture. If it is true, I think would work something like what Hinduism teaches, you either reincarnate closer to God, or further from God, depending on how you live your life. The problem is that I absolutely see no evidence for it in scripture.

 

[Deadworm]

The best and most succinct answer is provided by famed evangelical author, C. S. Lewis: "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." Sinners make some choices and avoid better choices that determine their postmortem fate. But even after death, they can in principle make redemptive choices. Until they do, they in effect gravitate to their own Hell based on the principle like attracts like (Matthew 7:1-2). A blizzard of NT texts can be marshalled implying that God's love never permanently abandons the sinner after death. I'll postpone discussion of these texts for another thread. Suffice to point out here that in both Hebrew ("olam") and Greek ("aionios"), the words translated "eternal" just mean "for a long time" or "age-long," not "eternal."

 

[Daniel9v9]

The second death is described as many things in Scripture. e.g. Lake of fire; darkness; death; torture; the worm that never dies; weeping and gnashing of teeth; shame; condemnation. I don't think it's too helpful to speculate as to what the exact nature of this is, but perhaps it's best understood as an eternal separation from God, poured out on all who in sin, rebellion and unbelief rejects God's grace - namely Jesus Christ.

As something we may learn from the severity of damnation, is the severity of our sins and rebellion that merits such punishment; further, the weight and significance of Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sins for all who believe - and from this may thankfulness, humility and devotion abound, through the grace of our Lord!

 

[Rajni]

I've always been intrigued by the concept of reincarnation, but I've never been able to reconcile it with scripture. If it is true, I think would work something like what Hinduism teaches, you either reincarnate closer to God, or further from God, depending on how you live your life. The problem is that I absolutely see no evidence for it in scripture.

There are passages in there that seem to point to it, but, like the other scenarios, it depends on how it's interpreted. I encountered one Christian on Facebook years ago who believed in it, and that this is what Jesus was referring to when speaking of being born again.

There's an article over at near-death.com that contains the verses which (the author believes) are supportive of it: Reincarnation in the Bible.

What I just found out which surprised me was how many Christians do believe in reincarnation:

Though the major Christian denominations reject the concept of reincarnation, a large number of Christians profess the belief. In a survey by the Pew Forum in 2009, 24% of American Christians expressed a belief in reincarnation.[207] In a 1981 Survey in Europe 31% of regular churchgoing Catholics expressed a belief in reincarnation.[208] (Source)​

I honestly didn't think it was that high, and that was back in '09!

 

[Karl.C]

Which one do you believe will happen at the final punishment?

A fire that torments, a fire that consumes or a fire that purifies?

The three main views are eternal conscious torment where the unrepentant are tormented by the fire for all eternity, annihilation where the unrepentant are punished according to wrongs committed and then annihilated by the fire, and universal reconciliation where the unrepentant go through a fire that burns impurities away leading to eventual repentance and reconciliation.

The options in the poll don't take account of Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt". By implication some remain asleep in the dust of the earth.

Also see Ezekiel 18:25,29 "...ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?

...saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?"

Conclusion: our perception of what constitutes justice, doesn't match God's...

 

[victorinus]

The second death is

the second death

 

[food4thought]

Here is a quick sketch of what I am thinking:

Wailing and gnashing of teeth: "Wailing" is a Jewish practice of loud mourning over something or someone. "Gnashing of teeth" is either intense suffering/grief or intense anger. Those who have seen and experienced God's wonderful presence and are then forced to spend eternity separated from it will undoubtedly mourn.

Fire is many times used as a symbol of God's judgment in Scripture. As fire consumes into ashes, so God's judgment upon the wicked rebellious dead would consume them and bring them to utter ruin.

Jesus also referred to it as outer darkness. In Hebrew, the word for darkness holds the connotation of twisting, or turning, away from the light. So the judgment would be for those who turn/twist away from the light... "God is light".

The worm does not die typified the unending corruption of the soul consumed with sin.

The Greek word we translate torment literally means "to try against the stone", a metaphor taken from metal working, where the metal being heated would be taken from the fire and rubbed against a test stone to determine it's purity. That word eventually came to also be used of the torture officials used to pry confessions from those they believed to be criminals. In the case of Revelation, the combination of fire and torment could very easily be looked at as a reference to the metal working practice, not the practice of Roman authorities.

The second death is a direct reference back to Genesis 2:17, where God tells Adam that the day he eats of the forbidden tree he will "surely die"... the text literally reads "die die". In other words, die twice: physical death (the separation of the soul from the body) and spiritual death (separation of relationship/communion with God).

So all the different references together, when taken as metaphors, indicate that hell is a place of God's judgment where the soul will be brought to ruin, intense sorrow and grief will be common, a place of turning/twisting away from God's light, where sins corruption does not cease, where they will be tested for purity "day and night" (yet because of sins ongoing corruption they will never become pure), rightly identified as the final spiritual separation from communion with God. Not a burning furnace where people are tortured by flames, immortal fireproof worms, and intense darkness. Yet more like a prison for those who will never be reformed from their sinfulness, who continually twist/turn away from God's light. It is the ruin of the soul's purpose of loving communion with God. It is the quarantine of those contaminated by sin from those who have been purified by the blood of Jesus Christ. What exactly do the lost actually sense/experience? I don't know.

Could it be that the very existence of hell, where the corruption of sin goes on in those who reject God, not be an additional source of wisdom for those who choose to obey God? Does the constant testing of the soul for purity, yet always finding sins corruption, not reveal the justice of God for their continued confinement?

 

[Shempster]

I think it is very probable that the traditional accepted views have it wrong.
I only say this because I look at other traditional views that are way off base in so many things.
Just a few are:
1. Prescription drugs are good for you and plants are not.
2. Eating chemically treated food and drinking is ok.
3. The scientific community has facts and reports them accurately

Therefore, I trust my instincts which tell me that no one would earn an eternity of torture. I think that was invented for priests and parents to scare the daylights out of us so we behave.

 

[YesMe]

This is my humble opinion, we came here, into this world, from the very heart of God, our place here is not by chance, God has a plan for each one of us, He has the best plan for us.So, to go on, we are here to shine for God, because no one ever succceeded that, Jesus came into this world, so by beliveing in Him, we can shine for God into this darkness, we have the unique chance to return back home, back to God.Now, some of us choose not to obey God, to do the evil, this will eventually lead to eternal separation from God.This separation causes all the torture, we were once part of God's heart, the source of love, the source of everything good, you can imagine how awful it is to lose God's love, God is love after all.

This is my humble opinion, that's all.