Supersessionism and Antisemitism

[ToBeLoved]

I certainly agree with this. However, I'd say that a certain exception is made when GOD HIMSELF is the one plugging up their ears. Romans 11:8 "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day." IOW the Jews themselves are not responsible for not hearing the gospel, since it is impossible for them to hear it.

Many Jews have heard the gospel and followed Christ. I don't think that this means that they are not responsible for hearing the gospel. I think this was in general when the Jews did not believe to bring in the time of the gentiles. It is certainly not an excuse.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You have supplied NO EVIDENCE that God warned that He would abrogate the covenant. If you want to end the conversation, that's entirely up to you.

Why did YHWH talk about a new covenant in Jeremiah and Isaiah then if it is the craziest thing in the world? Seems like it was always the plan but maybe you don't want to hear or believe that.

 

[The Times]

The agreement is on the transition from the old to the new when Messiah comes.

There is a request from Moses and there is a reply solution from God, in which both parties agree. Yet there is a warning to those Israelites who do not make the transition, as God says that he will be personally dealing with them in a severe way....

 

[The Times]

Look many Jews disagree with you. I disagree with you because it does say that a transition will happen.

Maybe some Jews will finally realise from these facts, when the world ends before their eyes, after seeing countless of their brothers and sisters go to their graves without a saviour.

But most Jews have been lost sister, don't you get it. Your plight is counterproductive to their salvation, whilst I am serving them, so that they can see their stuper and to get them out of it while they can before they too go to the grave without a saviour.

I love all my brothers and sisters, so forgive me for being blunt with you.

There is no contract with a flag, the contract is with the colours of all nations in Christ Jesus, which symbolised Jospeh's multicoloured coat.

Let us awaken them please and not put them into a further sleep.

 

[miknik5]

You said the covenant was amended. Please give the chapter and verse where this amendment was agreed to by both parties.

Never did

Please don't ever speak for me or put words into my mouth

 

[miknik5]

Nowhere does this say that the Mosaic covenant will end.

Then your hopes are in Moses

But CHRIST spoke of that in John 5

Moses also will testify

 

[Meowzltov]

Never did

Please don't ever speak for me or put words into my mouth

I'm very sorry. I confused you with Jerry Kelso. Sometimes when I'm deep in a conversation with someone, and a third party chimes in, I don't notice the new name, but just assume I'm still talking to the same person. I apologize.

 

[Meowzltov]

Then your hopes are in Moses

This is an unwarranted conclusion.

I look to Moses to tell me what God expects of me as a Jew.

I look to the Moshiach for my hope.

 

[Meowzltov]

Many Jews have heard the gospel and followed Christ. I don't think that this means that they are not responsible for hearing the gospel. I think this was in general when the Jews did not believe to bring in the time of the gentiles. It is certainly not an excuse.

I am a Jew who believes the Gospel. That is due to the mercy of God. For my fellow tribesmen, they are not capable of hearing it because God has closed their eyes and ears. And if they are incapable, they are not responsible.

 

[jerry kelso]

I asked for where in the OT, chapter and verse, both parties agreed to amend the contract. You have not answered that.

open heart,

1. There is no scripture that says the law of Moses was amended, but there is for abolishment of the Mosaic law.

2. I never said Moses and the children of Israel didn't agree with the covenant for they did before they knew what was in it Exodus 19:8.
Exodus 20:18-20 they wanted the Lord not speak to them anymore.
Exodus 20:21; Moses listened to God for the rest of the covenant.
Exodus 24:4 Moses spoke the words of the covenant to the people and they agreed to obey.
It was temporary because Jeremiah said there would be a new one.
Gentiles were never a part of the Mosaic Covenant.

3. The New Covenant was made for all mankind.
Galatians 4:24-26 gives a clear allegory of the truth of the the difference of the Old Covenant of Law and the New Covenant which is Jesus blood (Matthew 26:28) Law at Mt. Sinai and the New which is fro Jerusalem above using the illustration of the free woman and the the bond woman; Sarah-free and Hagar- bond woman.
2 Corinthians 3:7-9; law ministration of death and condemnation.
Hebrews 9:15; NC made between man and God. Jesus sacrificial death served as the oath or pledge which God made to seal the covenant. The whole world didn't agree with the NC for God to make it. All who believe agree with the covenant by accepting it. Jerry kelso

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am a Jew who believes the Gospel. That is due to the mercy of God. For my fellow tribesmen, they are not capable of hearing it because God has closed their eyes and ears. And if they are incapable, they are not responsible.

I'm just saying that neither you nor I are the judge, God is and He will decide. But I would think about how many Jews came to Christ through the apostles, many eyes were still able to be opened.

I'll leave it there.

 

[miknik5]

[

This is an unwarranted conclusion.

I look to Moses to tell me what God expects of me as a Jew.

I look to the Moshiach for my hope.

you look to Moses?
But it's Moses who spoke of HIM

Every WORD of scripture spoke of and pointed to CHRIST

Moses was just a shadow pointing us to Christ

Even Deuteronomy 18 calls all to listen to THE ONE whom GOD would raise up and in fact by GOD's WORD requires that any one who does not listen to HIM, GOD will require it

 

[AlexDTX]

We know the whole Khazar theory is a bunch of bunk. DNA studies with the Ashkenazim show their ancestry is the middle east.

So you want to believe.

 

[AlexDTX]

And who is responsible for the rejection of the gospel by the Jews? God. It is God who placed a veil over their eyes.

How convenient to blame God. Clearly you are a Calvinist Messianic Catholic Jew.

 

[AlexDTX]

I don't think you understand that this is a tribal thing, not a DNA thing.

A "people" or "tribe" is not based on dna. It is true that the easiest way to become part of a tribe is to be born into it. But one can marry into it or be adopted into it. With Israel, there is a conversion process where one learns the culture, the history, the language, the history, the customs, and the religion, and then becomes a Jew, an Israelite, a Hebrew -- part of the tribe. It has been this way since Abraham. Ruth is perhaps our most famous adoptee -- born a Moabite, she died a Jew.

I agree that Ruth is a famous example, but to use the term "tribal" as your euphemism for "cultural" is misleading. Ruth believed in Yahweh and the promise of the Messiah which is why she is in the messianic line. All Old Testament believers that are saved are saved only because of their faith in the promise of the Savior to come. The promise to Abraham is the only unconditional promise God made to the later descendants of Israel: the Messiah would save them and come through their line. A contract such as the Mosaic contract does not require both parties breaking it to void it. Israel as a "tribal" entity broke it repeatedly as all the world would if it applied to the Gentiles, which it never did.

 

[AlexDTX]

I think that God honors those who honor him. The Jews have everything thy need except knowledge of the Messiah, which GOD HIMSELF has deliberately chosen to withhold from them. They have their covenant, the promises, the Word, deep meaningful prayer lives, lives devoted to obedience and service to our Lord.

Baloney. Without Messiah they are lost. Your Calvinist interpretation blinds you just as the doctrine that Messiah would free them from Rome blinded many Jews at the time of Christ. There is no Yahweh, Ha Shem, Adonai, El Shaddai or any other Hebrew euphemism for God to worship. His name is Yeshua, Jesus, Iouses, or any other translation of Yahweh is Salvation. To try and worship God without the name of Jesus is to worship nothing at best, or demons at worse.

I understand your desire to believe that Jews are saved without Christ even though you are a Jew with Christ. No one wants to believe that a family member who dies with out Christ is in Hell, but that is where they are. Everyone who dies without the new birth makes the choice to remain in their sins and choose to go to Hell. That is the truth.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't think you understand that this is a tribal thing, not a DNA thing.

A "people" or "tribe" is not based on dna. It is true that the easiest way to become part of a tribe is to be born into it. But one can marry into it or be adopted into it. With Israel, there is a conversion process where one learns the culture, the history, the language, the history, the customs, and the religion, and then becomes a Jew, an Israelite, a Hebrew -- part of the tribe. It has been this way since Abraham. Ruth is perhaps our most famous adoptee -- born a Moabite, she died a Jew.

So I am not understanding this whole tribal thing.

So what you are saying is that a believer in Jesus would purposely become and convert to Judaism then to become Messianic?

Because unless you are talking about joining a tribe 2,000 years ago I'm not sure why anyone who believes in Messiah would convert to Judaism?

Also, I would keep in mind that only a REMNANT of Israel will be saved, now whatever you think that remnant might be is interesting, but I would not be so sure it will not be the direct Hebrew descendants themselves.

Seems their is confusion by even their own people who is a Hebrew by birth and bloodline or which becomes Jewish. To me I think it is never qualified and always bunched together which makes it more confusing to me.

However, it would seem to me that there would be a great issue here in that Yeshua brought Jew and Gentile under the New Covenant, yet you separate yourself out of this covenant? So I don't get that either. Very, very confusing.

Because under Messiah I am not sure you can hate or love more over race.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I agree that Ruth is a famous example, but to use the term "tribal" as your euphemism for "cultural" is misleading. Ruth believed in Yahweh and the promise of the Messiah which is why she is in the messianic line. All Old Testament believers that are saved are saved only because of their faith in the promise of the Savior to come. The promise to Abraham is the only unconditional promise God made to the later descendants of Israel: the Messiah would save them and come through their line. A contract such as the Mosaic contract does not require both parties breaking it to void it. Israel as a "tribal" entity broke it repeatedly as all the world would if it applied to the Gentiles, which it never did.

What is this whole tribal thing? Is it even valid after Yeshua? What separates a Jew from a Gentle under Yeshua?

 

[AlexDTX]

Let's look at what Supersessionism is, and what it means for Israel.

Supersessionism is the idea that physical Israel is no longer Israel; that the Church is now Israel.

• God is done with them, they are abandoned.
• The Jews are now cursed as a people.
• They no longer have any promises -- all their promises are now promises of the Church.

The idea is misleading. The Church does not replace Israel. Certainly, the New Covenant replaces the Mosaic Covenant. But the salvation of Jesus Christ is not a replacement of Israel. Instead it is a replacement of all mankind. He is the second Adam which is no longer a living soul but a quickening spirit. The word, "church", carries the connotation of an organization today, when the word comes from the German word, "kirk," which means "house." The house of God has never been brick and mortar buildings, but with Christ, the human body. Israel was never the house of God. The Holy Spirit came upon Israelis temporarily, but never resided permanently. One might argue, that John the Baptist was the one exception in the Old Testament (the Gospels, while in the New Testament, are old testament narratives until the resurrection of Christ.).

Christianity with the new birth is a new humanity and no one, Jew nor Gentile, participates in this new humanity without accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior. To argue that Jews have salvation through the Old Testament is to hate the Jewish people. For that argument condemns all to everlasting damnation. The Jews and Gentiles who love the Jewish people are those who help evangelize them to Christ. Support such organizations such as Jews for Jesus. These people love the Jewish people.

The idea of replacement theology as many understand today is misleading. The real replacement is of mankind, not any tribe or cultural group. There is new culture that is the eternal culture of the Kingdom of God that replaces the old culture of humanity. Will Israel get saved? Yes, when they see Jesus in his second coming, "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." (Zech. 12:10).

 

[AlexDTX]

What is this whole tribal thing? Is it even valid after Yeshua? What separates a Jew from a Gentle under Yeshua?

No it is not. I am only using the term that Open Heart used.